Heresy 9

[Jojen]

@Jojen

While I´m shure that GRRM isn´t keeping the role of the bad guys for the bastards (Duncan the Tall is definitely good), I´m glad you bring up the LCs of the NW, Benjen tells Jon about.

There was Tristan Mudd one of the worst LCs the NW ever had.

Maybe Tristan Mudd was vilified as the Night´s King was and was in fact fulfilling a purpose for the Children/Others.

I agree, this is entirely possible.

- Craster inbreeds with his daughters because the gods require so.

But why do the gods require it, exactly? Someone in Heresy 8 (I forget who now) brought up the question of Craster's blood. It would seem to me that the reason he is breeding with his daughters rather than finding a nice Wildling women to shag instead has a lot--and maybe everything--to do with his blood and the need to keep it pure. Maybe there's warg blood that he's trying to pass on, or maybe there's something else about it that his sons need in order to become WW, or might need somewhere down the line after the transformation.

[Black Crow]

Blood certainly counts for a lot in magic in Martin's world and I think the whole point of this particular bit of incest is that Craster DNA plus any other DNA may or may not produce a warg or a White Walker, but probably not, just as anywhere else.

However Craster DNA plus Craster DNA = White Walker.

In theory I suppose his incestuous daughters may also be a bit funny, but it certainly seems that its not a matter of keeping the bloodline "pure" so much as needing a double dose of whatever's in the blood.

[Black Crow]

So, think about this. Craster is certainly an uncomfortable addition to the wildling lot, but seems to me everyone beyond the Wall is better off with Craster, rather than without him. He is the sort of a shaman living separately from the others, and his duty is to perform certain rituals. Now, tribal shamans have certain elevated status, but so does Craster. He doesn't just live at the outskirt of a village. He rather maintains his own small settlement, which among other perks includes a longhall - by itself a construction underlining certain status.

I think this is important, because somebody had to build that Longhall and the wives - not the ones he made himself - had to come from somewhere. Being a shaman would also explain why Mance was afraid of him.

[brut]

Yes, and if you extend it further, we actually may have an explanation to the extinction of the WWs thousands of years ago: the "Craster" of that age died or was killed. So, there could have been no more sacrifices until a brother of NW stole the wildling woman and conceived today's Craster. I can assume that the woman was from the former shaman's bloodline and realized, or was prophesized that her son would be the new "Craster" reborn. So the natural thing for her to do is what Gilly did - run beyond the Wall to save the son. Unfortunately for her, she was not successful.

This also explains the mystery behind Whitetree. As the name implies, this is the ritualistic place. The settlement is hardly a village, and is also separated from the rest. It seems that Whitetree is populated by only few inhabitants, all of whom may be relatives. The wildlings know well not to mess with them, but may have forgotten why. After all, thousands of years passed and generations changed since the last WW breeder was alive. Still, the brother of the NW is ignorant of all this, so he kidnaps the woman from Whitetree (that would have been a rather easy task to do). Impregnates her, and - voila - you have Craster. Also, it seems the women of Craster's household have certain prophetic power. After all, one of the old wives was able to predict that Gilly's child is a boy.

Considering the wives that came before Craster's daughters, it may well be that first he breeds with the relatives from Whitetree. They all resettle and start up anew with the intention of continuing the godly sacrifices.

All this also underlines that there is only a limited number of WWs which is restricted to Craster's ability to pop boy pups.

I don't fully see how Craster's desire to preserve warging abilities in the family would motivate him to inbreed. There is simpler explanation: Craster's ancestors were godly people who sacrificed their boys to the old gods. That was their duty. And so it is the duty of Craster and his family.

The question is, who exactly was Craster's father that allowed for the proper blood mix?

[FanTasy]

Hi guys :) Long time no read, due to other obligations. Haven't read up all the threads I missed, just this one.

Not sure if it has been brought up already, otherwise my apologies for posing this question.

I don't have the books at hand so I'm not sure if it was Craster's boy or Mance's child that was nicknamed 'Monster' for a while.

Coldhands says to Bran that he is "your monster, Brandon Stark".

Coincidence?

Is there a relation between where Coldhands came from and the child that was called 'monster'.

What always bugged me too is what Coldhands is saying here.

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster (= something you created, something you are going to be) and is he adressing Bran as Brandon? Why does he call him Brandon?

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster and my name is Brandon Stark?

What do you guys think?

[mor2]

I think this is important, because somebody had to build that Longhall and the wives - not the ones he made himself - had to come from somewhere. Being a shaman would also explain why Mance was afraid of him.

He might be, however I think that despise would fit better than fear, in regard to how mance and many of the free folks felt about him.

[FanTasy]

Deleted due to the question being not meant for this thread.

[brut]

Hi guys :) Long time no read, due to other obligations. Haven't read up all the threads I missed, just this one.

Not sure if it has been brought up already, otherwise my apologies for posing this question.

I don't have the books at hand so I'm not sure if it was Craster's boy or Mance's child that was nicknamed 'Monster' for a while.

Coldhands says to Bran that he is "your monster, Brandon Stark".

Coincidence?

Is there a relation between where Coldhands came from and the child that was called 'monster'.

What always bugged me too is what Coldhands is saying here.

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster (= something you created, something you are going to be) and is he adressing Bran as Brandon? Why does he call him Brandon?

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster and my name is Brandon Stark?

What do you guys think?

She calls Craster's son a "Monster"

As for the Coldhands, I have a nagging suspicion it's unEgg. Just a suspicion though.

[Lummel]

...Coldhands says to Bran that he is "your monster, Brandon Stark".

Coincidence?

Is there a relation between where Coldhands came from and the child that was called 'monster'.

What always bugged me too is what Coldhands is saying here.

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster (= something you created, something you are going to be) and is he adressing Bran as Brandon? Why does he call him Brandon?

Does he say: Hi. I am your monster and my name is Brandon Stark?

What do you guys think?

Seeing as Bran doesn't say "Wow you're a Stark too and your name is Brandon - that's my name!" I assume that the possessive is implied = Coldhands is saying 'I am the monster created for Bran Stark'

Huh ... what is this about 0 warning posts, beneath my post count? Is this new at this site? Or a warning that I have been away from the heresy for too long LOL I haven't had any warnings, as far as I know. Luckily I seem to have a clean record :)

It is a new feature, you can see how many warnings you've received from the Moderators for your bad behaviour, there's some detail about it in the "Help" thread.

[FanTasy]

Thanks Brut, I had a hunch it was this child. It seemed to me a hint that what one of the Craster wifes tells Jon about what happens to the sons was known to Gilly. It seemed a bit cruel though.

[FanTasy]

It is a new feature, you can see how many warnings you've received from the Moderators for your bad behaviour, there's some detail about it in the "Help" thread.

Ha Thanks Lummel, I just discovered it. I shouldn't have been away too long from this site ...I posed a question in the Help-section about it and only then saw the explanation thread which said that it is only visible to the poster.

Well, I guess my clean record of 0 points is gone now ... as punishment for posing two obsolete posts :blushing:

At the Easter holiday I'm going to plough through the Heresy threads I haven't read yet. I am very curious for the new insights you all came up with while I was away committing heresy elsewhere :cool4:

[Black Crow]

He might be, however I think that despise would fit better than fear, in regard to how Mance and many of the free folks felt about him.

I knew somebody was going to raise this :cool4:

Its dead simple. Mance sent a messenger summoning Craster and his people to join in the great gathering up on the Milkwater. Craster not only declined the kind invitation but cut bits off said messenger. Mance simply sat on his hands and whistled Dixie instead of coming down with fire and sword to uphold his authority. Whether it was Craster himself he was afraid of or Craster's sons we don't know, but he was certainly leery of him.

[Frey Pie]

I think Craster as ye said is a shaman or priest of the Others.As he has relations in Whitetree and this is a place of great significance i can see Craster conducting sacrificial ceremonies here.Now i feel there are two religions beyond the Wall-the Others and the Old Gods.I dont see these as being two sides of the same coin.Craster declines because its not in his interest to go with Mance.Why is that?And Mance is obviously afraid ofCraster or at least wary.But we know hes killed easily enough.So perhaps its the retribution hes afraid of if anything happens Craster by his hand or in his host?

As an aside i dont think Crasters a stark but he has that blood in him.Rather by description he seems Karstarkish

[mor2]

@Black Crow, That assuming that what he said was indeed true and not simply to show that he wasn't collaborating with Mance, for that matter maybe he killed the messenger(and didnt want to admit murder) or the messenger didnt survive a "loosening" of the tongue, to tell the tale. He was sacrificing his children to the others, so you can call him a priest of a sort but, as for fear, I never seen any clue that he is anything but despised by all.

[Lummel]

...Now i feel there are two religions beyond the Wall-the Others and the Old Gods.I dont see these as being two sides of the same coin...

I disagree.

In the North they speak of the old gods. Plural. Why assume that worship or what those gods are is singular? If the old gods are no more than the hive mind of the weirnetted then maybe we should assume that their voice is as uniform as say, for instance, an internet forum?

[Frey Pie]

I disagree.

In the North they speak of the old gods. Plural. Why assume that worship or what those gods are is singular? If the old gods are no more than the hive mind of the weirnetted then maybe we should assume that their voice is as uniform as say, for instance, an internet forum?

So would you think that perhaps the Old Gods are the greenseers of old,with the Others being their militant right hand?I have no strong conviction as to wether the Old Gods are higher beings or Bran-like men with higher powers

[Elaena Targaryen]

I think this is important, because somebody had to build that Longhall and the wives - not the ones he made himself - had to come from somewhere. Being a shaman would also explain why Mance was afraid of him.

The way the discussion was going I am curious about this too. I tried reading the scene again where they talk to Sam to see if I could find anything at all about the wives. I'll post the text to see if someone else can see anything of import. First we do have names Gilly, Nella (who predicted it would be a boy), Ferny (who is the woman on the left in the conversation), Dyah (who may be the woman on the right and the one who 'caught' two horses) Since these women are described as old and haggard I assume they could be the 'first' wives (though I'm not sure about Nella) (if Dyah is the woman on the right then she is Gilly's mother) I am curious where Craster's first wife / wives came from and I wonder if that could be important as well. Earlier Sam remarks just how much all of the wives and daughters look alike so if there were two or three wives from the start they could have been sisters. Also is it strange that a haggard old woman, who probably has no experience with horses, could 'catch' two horses that were trying to run off? Or am I trying to find something that simply is not there? Anyway I don't think there is much new info to be gained reguarding the wives.

See, I'm not frightened anymore. Of you, or ... of anything."

"You should be," said a woman's voice.

Three of Craster's wives were standing over them. Two were haggard old women he did not know, but Gilly was between them, all bundled up in skins and cradling a bundle of brown and white fur that must have held her baby. "We're not supposed to talk to Craster's wives," Sam told them. "We have orders."

"That's done now," said the old woman on the right.

"The blackest crows are down in the cellar, gorging," said the old woman on the left, "or up in the loft with the young ones. They'll be back soon, though. Best you be gone when they do. The horses run off, but Dyah's caught two."

"You said you'd help me," Gilly reminded him.

"I said Jon would help you. Jon's brave, and he's a good fighter, but I think he's dead now. I'm a craven. And fat. Look how fat I am. Besides, Lord Mormont's hurt. Can't you see? I couldn't leave the Lord Commander."

"Child," said the other old woman, "that old crow's gone before you. Look."

Mormont's head was still in his lap, but his eyes were open and staring and his lips no longer moved. The raven cocked its head and squawked, then looked up at Sam. "Corn?" "No corn. He has no corn." Sam closed the Old Bear's eyes and tried to think of a prayer, but all that came to mind was, "Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy. Mother have mercy."

"Your mother can't help you none," said the old woman on the left. "That dead old man can't neither. You take his sword and you take that big warm far cloak o' his and you take his horse if you can find him. And you go."

"The girl don't lie," the old woman on the right said. "She's my girl, and I beat the lying out of her early on. You said you'd help her. Do what Ferny says, boy. Take the girl and be quick about it."

"Quick," the raven said. "Quick quick quick."

"Where?" asked Sam, puzzled. "Where should I take her?"

"Someplace warm," the two old women said as one.

Gilly was crying. "Me and the babe. Please. I'll be your wife, like I was Craster's. Please, ser crow. He'sa boy, just like Nella said he'd be. If you don't take him, they will."

"They?" said Sam, and the raven cocked its black head and echoed, "They They They "

"The boy's brothers," said the old woman on the left. "Craster's sons. The white cold's rising out there, crow. I can feel it in my bones. These poor old bones don't lie. They'll be here soon, the sons."

[brut]

As I mentioned above, Craster's first wives could have been the relatives of his mother from Whitetree who resettled with him.

[Lummel]

So would you think that perhaps the Old Gods are the greenseers of old,with the Others being their militant right hand?I have no strong conviction as to wether the Old Gods are higher beings or Bran-like men with higher powers

possibly one of ten fingers rather than the militant right hand.

Isn't the power of the weirnet effectively godlike at least - infinite memory, infinite recall, oversight of all where trees grow, the ability to warg beasts and birds and possibly the power to bring down the hammer of the waters and smash create the arm of Dorne?

[Frey Pie]

possibly one of ten fingers rather than the militant right hand.

Isn't the power of the weirnet effectively godlike at least - infinite memory, infinite recall, oversight of all where trees grow, the ability to warg beasts and birds and possibly the power to bring down the hammer of the waters and smash create the arm of Dorne?

Possibly.My first impression of the weirtrees has always been one of peace-although they had a frightening visage this is where Ned goes for piece of mind and contemplation.I have a hard time consigning that picture to one of the "gift of immortality"that the Others give to their minions.

I think it should be kept in mind also we dont know who lived in Whitetree before Jons pov found nobody living there.Is it not entirely possible that Craster has some of his wives living there?Maybe they moved to Crasters keep just as other villages moved to Mances mustering.The lack of any clan or village chiefs hall makes me think that this is Crasters village