Heresy 9

[lokisnow]

I agree. And Heresy is fun. But I think a lot of approaches presuppose that 90% of what we learn in the books is wrong and 10% is right. I think the reverse, history may be unreliable and depend upon who is writing/telling the history, but I think it's 90% true. There are few outright lies in the series, and such betrayals of the reader's trust have to be sufficientally worthwhile to risk it--and it has to make narrative sense. Let's call this the Jon Snow scale of authorly deception. It makes sense that Eddard would elaborately hide Jon's true birth because Robert would never suffer the child to live. Additionally, it's fairly easy to explain away this lie, and there have been many different markers throughout the series indicating just how unreliable the story is. For something like the Night's King, I don't think there are any such markers throughout the series indicating that particular story is as hugely significant and that what we know is unreliable on a Jon Snow scale. There were more markers in the text for Bloodraven=3EC&dangerous than there are for the Night's King=key to truth.

What is probably true is that 90% of what we were told in the text is trustworthy, but that 10% can hugely change our perspective & perception in the event that it is reasonable to explain the deception. The wall was built to keep the humans out of the north, not to keep the others out of the south is a reasonably simple explanation that fits with what we know and isn't difficult to retcon it in as truth. Some of the theories proposed here are just so intensely convoluted I don't know how the reader could be expected to accept or grasp an explanation that was a chapter long. A sentance long explanation is far more likely (and likely to happen at the end of a chapter, eh?)

[SerBronn]

Melisandre risked an immense amount going on the small boat with Davos I think, Note the Very Deliberate literary contrast here. GRRM doesn't tell us or suggest that Melisandre is deathly afraid, but the implication is right there. It's not something that Davos would think, but by contrasting this shrunken and shivering image of Melisandre against a sentance as simple as "Davos loved the water" we the reader immediately get that Melisandre HATES the water, fears it--and note that Martin ends the paragraph by having Melisandre vocalize what she is feeling by projecting it onto Davos, "I can smell the fear on you, ser knight." (also remember that Gilly tells Sam the trees have no power out on the ocean, perhaps Rhloor is equally weak out on the sea, Martin ultimately ends the following exchange by pointing out the waning of the fires...)

In the Victarion chapters doesn't it specifically show how the Red Priest they pick up has some power out on the sea? I'm pretty sure GRRM mentions that Victorion is like impressed by the Red Priest's powers

[Black Crow]

I think this is probably an example of what Lockesnow and I have just been talking about. The bit with Mel and Davos in the boat could be read as Mel having a fear of the water because its not her "element" and may douse her fire. On the other hand its much more likely to simply be down to her being scared of the fact she's in a little boat in a big sea and has nothing to do with magic at all. If he wanted to take the opportunity to off her there and then a bit of greasy bacon would probably have been enough to have her hanging over the side bringing up whatever she had for supper :cool4:

[Howling Mad]

Wow,I have been reading hersey 6 and I'm exhausted!

[Jojen]

Not so sure. I watched it last night and then played it back a couple of times. The first thing noticed was that as Jon set off to see what Craster was up to there was a crow or raven cawing and then taking wing, and I then had the impression the clicking noise wasn't the White Walker(s) but more crows/ravens chittering to each other. GRRM did mention in a recent interview that the raven was missing from the scene in the last series where Jon saves Mormont from Othor so I'd be inclined to think that the raven/crow connection is being deliberately played up here in what is already a deliberately inserted scene.

Agreed. There was definitely something going on there, although it may have only been for the benefit of those who've read ADWD and know that the the crows contain the spirits/consciousness of the Children who have passed on and that BR is watching the NW and Craster through them.

(I have speculated before the White Walkers might be a by-product of the magic used by the children to create the "hammer").

I'm sure there must have been some blowback or unintended consequences from using their power in such an obvious and extreme way. I'm just not sure how it using the hammer so far South would end up spawning WW way up North, although it's likely that the waves were felt as far away as Eastwatch and along the shores beyond the Wall.

@Sand Snake no9 (or anyone really) are there stories about what the fairies did with the children they took?

Just adding to what others have already said--when a fairy or elf stole a child they often left behind a changeling, which was their own offspring, in its place. What they did with the child varied according to their needs. Sometimes it was a way for them to get rid of their senior citizens and bring new breeding stock into their houses. Sometimes the child was given as a tithe to the Devil, as in the legend of Tam Lin in Scotland.

I think what's missing from the whole Craster discussion is that he's only giving up his sons, sons who won't inherit his "realm" and who therefore can't oppose either the WW or himself somewhere down the line. I know Wildlings' views on private property are different than those practiced in the South, but this seems significant to me somehow. Maybe it's obvious to you other heretics, but it may be an important part of his agreement with the WW. He may be doing it for selfish reasons (to avoid the threat his sons might pose to his authority), but also, like the CotF giving up their dragonglass/obsidian blades, Craster's disarming himself as a show of goodwill.

[Black Crow]

Let's call this the Jon Snow scale of authorly deception. It makes sense that Eddard would elaborately hide Jon's true birth because Robert would never suffer the child to live. Additionally, it's fairly easy to explain away this lie, and there have been many different markers throughout the series indicating just how unreliable the story is. For something like the Night's King, I don't think there are any such markers throughout the series indicating that particular story is as hugely significant and that what we know is unreliable on a Jon Snow scale. There were more markers in the text for Bloodraven=3EC&dangerous than there are for the Night's King=key to truth.

What is probably true is that 90% of what we were told in the text is trustworthy, but that 10% can hugely change our perspective & perception in the event that it is reasonable to explain the deception. The wall was built to keep the humans out of the north, not to keep the others out of the south is a reasonably simple explanation that fits with what we know and isn't difficult to retcon it in as truth. Some of the theories proposed here are just so intensely convoluted I don't know how the reader could be expected to accept or grasp an explanation that was a chapter long. A sentance long explanation is far more likely (and likely to happen at the end of a chapter, eh?)

In principle I agree, but I also do think that the Nights King business is going to turn out to be a lot more important than just one of Old Nan's stories (well it was told by Old Nan for a start...) especially as we've just had Craster's true relationship with the White Walkers dramatically confirmed.

If Craster's sacrifice is giving up his sons to the White Walkers rather than killing them as most people thought, then it can reasonably be assumed that Bran Stark, the Nights King, was doing the same, which in turn implies a connection. Craster speaks of being a Godly man holding to the old ways and as he doesn't seem to have been the book reading type that connection must be a tradition of giving up boys to the White Walkers stretching back to the Nights King and perhaps beyond.

[Lummel]

...What is probably true is that 90% of what we were told in the text is trustworthy, but that 10% can hugely change our perspective & perception in the event that it is reasonable to explain the deception... Some of the theories proposed here are just so intensely convoluted I don't know how the reader could be expected to accept or grasp an explanation that was a chapter long. A sentance long explanation is far more likely (and likely to happen at the end of a chapter, eh?)

Yes and no. L+R=J, The Tyrell murder of Joffrey or the Varys caused Tywin's constipation so that Tyrion would kill him all seem blatently obvious once you've read the threads arguing the evidence back and forth, once you're familiar with those theories then the clues in the text leep off the page and you mentally shread any comment for writing from GRRM for odd phrasing that confirms (or denies) the theories. For the reader who is not plugged into the weirnet and joining our hive mind turning the clues into honey sweet theories its a different story. The range of what readers have missed as seen in the similarly named threads post ADWD is impressive.

We've still got at least two ASOIAF novels and umpteen Dunk and Egg stories before we reach a stage where there will be no more reveals and up until the bittersweet end I suspect GRRM is going to be handing out information in his usual tight-fisted 'need to know' basis to make having a subtle reveal worthwhile.

The problem is distinguishing between the worthwhile plot pointers and the background detail, and that is a problem only in that it can't be done. Plenty of the speculation before ADWD was off base and I don't doubt the same will be true when we see future GRRM stuff come out too, but that's all part of the fun.

[Lummel]

...I think what's missing from the whole Craster discussion is that he's only giving up his sons, sons who won't inherit his "realm" and who therefore can't oppose either the WW or himself somewhere down the line. I know Wildlings' views on private property are different than those practiced in the South, but this seems significant to me somehow. Maybe it's obvious to you other heretics, but it may be an important part of his agreement with the WW. He may be doing it for selfish reasons (to avoid the threat his sons might pose to his authority), but also, like the CotF giving up their dragonglass/obsidian blades, Craster's disarming himself as a show of goodwill.

Yes that is interesting. What is was going on in Craster's head? You can understand the sacrifice of a son or even some sons if he gets to keep an heir. So what did he imagine that would happen when he eventually died of natural causes? Is the tradition of son sacrifice actually matrilineal - would the daughter-wives have brought in a new man to become their husbandbrotherfather and provide sons for the cold old gods (didn't look in the book as though they would get a chance to do this but maybe in other circumstances...)? Was craster something like a priest, did he regard the provision of sons as so high a form of worship that it trumped mere earthly concerns of inheritance?

[Lykos]

A very interesting question was asked at the small questions, so I put it here.

How long have the Others been awake?

Since the wildlings are just starting to flee south in the beginning of AGoT, I feel we're meant to believe they are just now waking up/coming out of hibernation in preparation for what is sure to be a long winter.

But Craster seems to have been giving his sons to them for a long time-- I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be, but it must be at least 20 years, probably longer, that we're meant to believe he's been giving his sons over to them. Were they awake during summer? If so how is it possible that no other wildlings knew of them? Is this a mystery to be revealed, or a mistake, or did i just miss something?

[Frey Pie]

A very interesting question was asked at the small questions, so I put it here.

sweet_sister, on 12 April 2012 - 03:26 AM, said:

How long have the Others been awake?

Since the wildlings are just starting to flee south in the beginning of AGoT, I feel we're meant to believe they are just now waking up/coming out of hibernation in preparation for what is sure to be a long winter.

But Craster seems to have been giving his sons to them for a long time-- I'm not sure how old he's supposed to be, but it must be at least 20 years, probably longer, that we're meant to believe he's been giving his sons over to them. Were they awake during summer? If so how is it possible that no other wildlings knew of them? Is this a mystery to be revealed, or a mistake, or did i just miss something?

I was wondering when this was going to come up. We can have no definate answer i dont think. One would speculate that they perhaps were the first magical beings to reawaken, then the dragons and increase in human magic etc. But if you go by Crasters sacrifice then it must be long before this as one would have assumed magic would have reawakened alot earlier elsewhere otherwise. Crasters our only definate marker. Hes said to be coming to the end of his years in Clash. Neds40 something when he dies but is in no way considered old. Walder Frey and Old Nan are considerably older. Aemon Targaryen was 102 when he died. Now Craster wouldnt have had such a sheltered likfe as these but i think it safe to assume that he would be in his70s perhaps. Old enough to be reaching the end of his years but not so old as to be unfit or incapable. Ice preserves. He was brought as a baby to the Wall and sent away. I assume he grew up in Whitetree. When did he star making babies? When hes 20 or 30? Did he immediately start sacrificing them or was he attacked by the Others and found he could pay them off?

I would say they were definately awake in the summer. Possibly in a state of dormancy and when winter arrives again they wake up. Possibly the opposite of hibernation

[Lykos]

I more and more get the impression that LC Mormont was keeping some dark secret.

[Lummel]

I more and more get the impression that LC Mormont was keeping some dark secret.

Oh come on! You can't just say something like that and leave us sitting here! Why do you think that, what kind of dark secret...please don't tease us so!

[Lykos]

Heh heh, well I´m feeling teased by Martin and thought I´d share the burden.

We know that Mormont was aware of Craster´s unique position amongst the wildlings, regarding him as save refuge. He´s also aware of his daughter-wifes. He ignored the report of a WW sighting. He didn´t want to burn Othor and Jafer as sugested by some brothers, but ordered them to be taken back to Castle Black. Was that part of Jon´s grooming for command, mayheps?

[Black Crow]

A very interesting question was asked at the small questions, so I put it here...

I think that this is somewhere GRRM has been deliberately misleading people with the stories of the White Walkers sleeping in the ice for thousands of years, because they're clearly around long before the comet appears and magic returns.

First Craster has been giving up his sons to the Walkers for well over six years - Nella alone had six boys and presumably they weren't the first. Craster also claims to be a Godly man following the old ways, so as discussed above its reasonable to suppose he's following a long tradition, and we'll come back to him in a moment.

Secondly Mance Rayder (I forget the exact quotation) has spent at least three years pulling the Wildlings together for the trek, which implies they've been around for at least that long.

Thirdly, when telling Tyrion that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, Mormont is neither surprised not alarmed, which as we've discussed before clearly indicates that's he's familiar with them and doesn't regard them as a threat in themselves. Whether he knew more than he said is an intriguing thought...

The conclusion therefore has to be that they haven't been sleeping under the Ice but have always been part of life beyond the Wall.

Nevertheless, if we return to Craster, or rather to Gilly; she tells Jon that they come with the cold and have been coming more frequently of late, which is why Craster is running short of sheep. What this suggests is that they do indeed come from the Land of Always Winter but are accustomed to slipping south as small parties of rangers to collect boys and other supplies from Craster and others like him, and then returning north again. Only now, as Winter and colder weather is closing in they're perhaps coming/raiding(?) south more often, which to my mind is a much more convincing explanation than their waking up after sleeping for thousands of years.

[Bran Vras]

I concur with Lykos. Lord Mormont calls Craster "My Lord", he gives him a precious axe (the axe seems to be of the more common type in the show). In the show, Mormont is seen briefly around the place where Craster gives his son. When Craster is stabbed by the men of the Watch, Mormont denounces not a mistake, not a crime, but a sacrilege.

I have speculated about Mormont's precedessor, Lord Commander Qorgyle, in the Mance Rayder thread.

About the dark secrets of the Watch, it might have been discussed in an earlier heresy that two hundred years ago, the Night's Watch left the Nightfort. It's likely that happened at the insistence of Queen Alysanne and her dragons. Since it seems to coincide with the visit of Jaehaerys, Alysanne (and possibly septon Barth) at Winterfell. The visit appears to have been a civilizing mission in the North, and the first night custom was abandoned in this occasion. I suppose that some practices at the Nightfort were not acceptable anymore, which is why the Watch had to leave and use Castle Black as its principal stronghold.

Is there any idea of the practices? Is the event important for the decline of the Watch?

More aout Craster in the TV show: I have noticed that the golden ring on Craster's arm is well in evidence, that the two animal heads on spikes at the entrance became much more numerous on screen, and that there is only one chair in the keep (of course for Craster).

[Frey Pie]

If Mormont kept a secret whos around to tell? Would he hae confided in Benjen? One would think that if Mormont knew something so would Aemon and that he in turn would alert the new LC Jon.

Is it possible for a person to communicate with a former warg who has died and stays now in animal form-like the crow Bran wargs the first time. If so, as speculated before that Mormont warged the white raven, perhaps he can be communicated with that way?

[Jojen]

Yes that is interesting. What is was going on in Craster's head? You can understand the sacrifice of a son or even some sons if he gets to keep an heir. So what did he imagine that would happen when he eventually died of natural causes? Is the tradition of son sacrifice actually matrilineal - would the daughter-wives have brought in a new man to become their husbandbrotherfather and provide sons for the cold old gods (didn't look in the book as though they would get a chance to do this but maybe in other circumstances...)? Was craster something like a priest, did he regard the provision of sons as so high a form of worship that it trumped mere earthly concerns of inheritance?

I've been wondering that too, about what Craster thought would happen when he finally kicks the bucket (and I don't mean the Wulls). Does Did he have some contingency plan for his daughter-wives for when the sons returned and found no more babies in the snow? I wonder how many (if any) other men currently have a similar agreement with the WW. He can't be the only one, could he? Perhaps the answer will come from a POV from Hardhome or from beyond the veil of winter.

[Lummel]

...Perhaps the answer will come from a POV from Hardhome or from beyond the veil of winter.

Bran watching weirvision more like.

[lokisnow]

May be nothing, but in the TV series I thought there was a strong resemblence between Craster and Mormont. I speculated that Craster might be Mormont's bastard half brother.

[sweet_sister]

This is maybe kinda crazy, but perhaps, like presidents, Lords Commander of the Watch are entrusted with some national security secrets upon their swearing in. Maybe there is some knowledge passed down from Lord Commander to Lord Commander, and either Mormont was unable to share it with Jon due to his untimely death, or Jon has yet to discover it (perhaps in the Maester's library or something?).

This of course all flows from my fanciful assumption that presidents get to learn the truth about Area 51 and Sasquatch as soon as they get sworn in :P