Heresy 9

[darrylzero]

I think that this is somewhere GRRM has been deliberately misleading people with the stories of the White Walkers sleeping in the ice for thousands of years, because they're clearly around long before the comet appears and magic returns.

First Craster has been giving up his sons to the Walkers for well over six years - Nella alone had six boys and presumably they weren't the first. Craster also claims to be a Godly man following the old ways, so as discussed above its reasonable to suppose he's following a long tradition, and we'll come back to him in a moment.

Secondly Mance Rayder (I forget the exact quotation) has spent at least three years pulling the Wildlings together for the trek, which implies they've been around for at least that long.

Thirdly, when telling Tyrion that White Walkers have been seen near Eastwatch, Mormont is neither surprised not alarmed, which as we've discussed before clearly indicates that's he's familiar with them and doesn't regard them as a threat in themselves. Whether he knew more than he said is an intriguing thought...

The conclusion therefore has to be that they haven't been sleeping under the Ice but have always been part of life beyond the Wall.

Nevertheless, if we return to Craster, or rather to Gilly; she tells Jon that they come with the cold and have been coming more frequently of late, which is why Craster is running short of sheep. What this suggests is that they do indeed come from the Land of Always Winter but are accustomed to slipping south as small parties of rangers to collect boys and other supplies from Craster and others like him, and then returning north again. Only now, as Winter and colder weather is closing in they're perhaps coming/raiding(?) south more often, which to my mind is a much more convincing explanation than their waking up after sleeping for thousands of years.

I only came across these heresies threads recently, and while I've tried to read up carefully, I may have missed some things. Apologies if that's reflected in my post.

I think you guys have done some amazing work (I was particularly taken with the discussions of the Night's King), but I think this is stretching a bit. Rather, I think *parts* of this are stretching a bit. I think you're onto something about Craster and Mance that clearly indicates that at a minimum the White Walkers have been stirring for a good 6 years (if indeed they were ever genuinely dormant). I also think that this is clearly on Martin's mind as well, not something we're reading into inconsistencies or mistakes.

However, my read of Mormont indicates that he is genuinely surprised by a lot of these events. I think when he talks of reports of White Walkers, he's clearly concerned but not sure he believes it himself. And I think that when he decides to have Aemon study those bodies, he's not expecting them to rise. This is the stuff that he's been warned about, the stuff he knows the Night's Watch is really supposed to be defending against, but he has trouble believing it's really happening. I know that's kind of a boring, traditional reading, but I just don't feel like speculations about what secrets about the watch and the Others Mormont is keeping are likely to be that fruitful. I think they're as ignorant of the things you all have started to uncover as the rest of Westeros, or almost as ignorant at least. They've heard things from Wildlings, of course, but they don't necessarily trust them.

Obviously, inferring authorial intent is tricky, but I really don't get the sense that Martin is hinting at anything here. I think talking to Tyrion, Mormont is reading the signs that something big is coming, but I don't think he's hiding anything. And when it comes to Craster, I think the traditional interpretation that Craster's terrible (and demanding, hence the axe) but also useful is sufficient.

Something clearly doesn't add up, though, so maybe I've just been fooled. Certainly there have been Others around for Craster to be offering his sons to for quite some time (at least six and probably more like 20 years -- and if it's 20 then it might as well just be perpetual).

Random thought: What if the wood dancers were also human babies stolen away by the CotF and made into warriors?

This thread has mostly (unless I missed something) been positing that there are two camps of CotF, greenseers and wooddancers, but what if the ones we've been introduced to are the only kind and their lack of facility with violence is ubiquitous? If the the CotF have always stolen human babies (and/or accepted them as sacrifices), that would be pretty cool and resonate with a lot of old folklore. It would also undermine -- to a certain extent -- the image of peaceful, happy, little CotF and violent, mean humans that tried to steal their land and cut down their weirwoods. Perhaps the humans tried to coexist before the CotF started stealing their babies. Of course, the role of rumor would be crucial here and war could have broken out as both groups exaggerated the damage done by the other.

Supposing the wood dancers were efforts by the CotF to create suitable warriors from human DNA, when might the CotF have lost control of them? How much of this history could be explained by that moment, when the CotF lost control of their human-bred warriors? Under this scenario, I'm imagining that the wood dancers became self-replicating and eventually transformed into the White Walkers when they were forced beyond the wall. Not quite as revolutionary as what you guys have been discussing but still intriguing, to me at least. If this is the case, the children can be as exhausted by the conflict as they present themselves to be, and Bloodraven (and thus Bran) can be a little more nonpartisan.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

It is clear that GRRM uses history, mythology and other SFF as sources of inspiration for ASOIAF. The character of Bloodraven, for example, borrows from the Norse God Odin (one-eyed, ravens, wisdom) and Moorcock's Elric (albino sorcerer); UnCat is a Nemesis straight out of Greek myth and drama, sent to punish Frey and Lannister hubris; as recently discussed, the CotF and the White Walkers, have a lot in common with Fairies as described in traditional stories (aversion to iron, taking human children, living underground, nature magic, etc.) Thinking about these connections inspired me to look for myths and legends about winter, and a Google search immediately found two stories, one about the Widigo, a snow creature, and the other about Rainbow Crow, who brought fire from heaven to save the creatures of the earth from winter. These are definitely things that make me go "hmmmmmn."

What I'm really looking for is something in mythology that will indicate the direction of the story, in particular the story in the North. This search may be entirely futile because GRRM is ultimately telling his own story. I won't stop looking though.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It is clear that GRRM uses history, mythology and other SFF as sources of inspiration for ASOIAF. The character of Bloodraven, for example, borrows from the Norse God Odin (one-eyed, ravens, wisdom) and Moorcock's Elric (albino sorcerer); UnCat is a Nemesis straight out of Greek myth and drama, sent to punish Frey and Lannister hubris; as recently discussed, the CotF and the White Walkers, have a lot in common with Fairies as described in traditional stories (aversion to iron, taking human children, living underground, nature magic, etc.) Thinking about these connections inspired me to look for myths and legends about winter, and a Google search immediately found two stories, one about the Widigo,a snow creature, and the other about Rainbow Crow, who brought fire from heaven to save the creatures of the earth from winter. These are definitely things that make me go "hmmmmmn."

What I'm really looking for is something in mythology that will indicate the direction of the story, in particular the story in the North. This search may be entirely futile because GRRM is ultimately telling his own story. I won't stop looking though.

Someone on here ... Val? I can't remember ... also brought up the legend of the Corn King and how it might relate to Jon and the warged raven ("Corn! Corn!").

At Lammas, the Corn King dies (to be reborn at spring), ensuring plenty for the winter.

[Jojen]

"We cannot set the world to rights. That is not our purpose. The Night's Watch has other wars to fight."

That's what LC Mormont told Jon. That was his way of explaining Craster as much as he was going to do. He didn't appear overly concerned as Lord Commander about what Craster was doing (although as simply a man, he seemed to share Jon's concerns). This would suggest that the WW weren't the real threat to the NW. The Watch at that point was focused on Mance, on the human threat. I think Mormont knew enough to differentiate between the two, and chose to tackle what seemed to be the the easier challenge, the enemy he understood more than the enemy he didn't.

[Francis Buck]

Someone on here ... Val? I can't remember ... also brought up the legend of the Corn King and how it might relate to Jon and the warged raven ("Corn! Corn!").

Very interesting...aren't there a bunch of Norse associations between the name Bran and ravens as well?

[Lummel]

Welsh - bran is welsh for crow or maybe raven, and ravens bring news to Bran the Blessed once he's had his head cut off and he can't move around so much.

Odin of course also has news bringing ravens so the idea wasn't foreign to the norse.

[Lummel]

Someone on here ... Val? I can't remember ... also brought up the legend of the

Corn King and how it might relate to Jon and the warged raven ("Corn! Corn!").

It goes back the Frazer's The Golden Bough. Frazer's thesis was something like all religions have at their root a myth of a person sacrificed at the height of their power and strength to ensure the fertility of the land and the next harvest. He thought in the earliest times there were actual sacrifices like the King of Nemi but later these became symbolic like John Barleycorn or by implication Jesus Christ.

I'm inclined to think that GRRM has read The Golden Bough or something indebted to it and I'm strongly inclined at present to think that the notion of self sacrifice will turn out to be very important in the series.

The sacrifice of the prince of pentos, the marriage of the Doge Sealord of Braavos to the sea, John Barleycorn in ADWD, maybe even the Night's King or Craster seem to me to be influenced by the stories and motives that Frazer included in his book...

[Bran Vras]

Welsh - bran is welsh for crow or maybe raven, and ravens bring news to Bran the Blessed once he's had his head cut off and he can't move around so much.

And in the closest living language to Welsh: Breton. Breton and Welsh separated fifteen centuries ago. So the word was probably common to all celtic languages of the brythnoic family. (By the way, the pseudonym of this poster refers to this very word. Bran Vras is Raven, as opposed to Bran which is simply crow.) I think the word is the same in the goedelic family (Gaelic, Manx etc).

[Black Crow]

Just sliding off on a tangent here, on one of Bran Vas' threads he quoted Jaquen H'gar swearing an oath to Arya:

“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”

My emphasis. Note how he makes a distinction between the old gods, who include R'hllor, and "the seven new gods", which rather points up what we've discussed before that perhaps the Andal crusaders who slaughtered the Children and drove the survivors north were full blooded followers of R'hllor and that their religion later mellowed into the Seven. And this in turn supports the notion that the "Others" defeated by AA and the followers of R'hllor were the Children

[Lummel]

And in the closest living language to Welsh: Breton. Breton and Welsh separated fifteen centuries ago. So the word was probably common to all celtic languages of the brythnoic family. (By the way, the pseudonym of this poster refers to this very word. Bran Vras is Raven, as opposed to Bran which is simply crow.) I think the word is the same in the goedelic family (Gaelic, Manx etc).

Interesting! Thank you.

Any Breton raven stories that might be relevant that you can share with us non-bretons :) ?

[Black Crow]

This thread has mostly (unless I missed something) been positing that there are two camps of CotF, greenseers and wooddancers, but what if the ones we've been introduced to are the only kind and their lack of facility with violence is ubiquitous? If the the CotF have always stolen human babies (and/or accepted them as sacrifices), that would be pretty cool and resonate with a lot of old folklore. It would also undermine -- to a certain extent -- the image of peaceful, happy, little CotF and violent, mean humans that tried to steal their land and cut down their weirwoods. Perhaps the humans tried to coexist before the CotF started stealing their babies. Of course, the role of rumor would be crucial here and war could have broken out as both groups exaggerated the damage done by the other.

Supposing the wood dancers were efforts by the CotF to create suitable warriors from human DNA, when might the CotF have lost control of them? How much of this history could be explained by that moment, when the CotF lost control of their human-bred warriors? Under this scenario, I'm imagining that the wood dancers became self-replicating and eventually transformed into the White Walkers when they were forced beyond the wall. Not quite as revolutionary as what you guys have been discussing but still intriguing, to me at least. If this is the case, the children can be as exhausted by the conflict as they present themselves to be, and Bloodraven (and thus Bran) can be a little more nonpartisan.

On the whole I'd tend to agree with much of this although I'd like to clarify a little on the Children and their Wood Dancers. Some have suggested that there may be two factions of Children; the cuddly tree hugging bunnies of ADwD and the Wood Dancers. If there is a split that would be the logical one, but I'm not convinced that the lot who have got Bran are anything like as cuddly as they pretend. The White Walkers on the other hand although certainly exhibiting similarities to the Wood Dancers (their stealth armour for a start - and the way they have been portrayed in the TV version as something suspiciously close to North American Wood Runners) are I think something different. I started off by thinking there was a connection with the Children but now I'm starting to think it might be more complicated and that if it does turn out that they're not on much the same side, it still doesn't follow that the Children are the good guys...

[jon rr stark]

I dont think the children can be simply seen as good guys, there were being anniliated by the first men before they joined forces against a common enemy. Men are no friends to the CotF after all they stole their land. They serve their own purpose, but it would seem that the others are as much a threat to the CotF as they are to everyone else. Because of the numbers, men could defeat the others but the children cannot so they need help. They are between a rock and a hard place. That doesnt make them good or bad just pragmatic.

[lokisnow]

Just sliding off on a tangent here, on one of Bran Vas' threads he quoted Jaquen H'gar swearing an oath to Arya:

“By all the gods of sea and air, and even him of fire, I swear it.” He placed a hand in the mouth of the weirwood. “By the seven new gods and the old gods beyond count, I swear it.”

I was going to post that vow a week or two ago but the board was constantly down. I don't agree with your conclusions, but find the terms of it fascinating. I see a connection here to the Seven and the old gods, Jaquen connects the weirwood and the vow to the seven, for example. Beyond Count is a fascinating phrase, and I think the weirnet points the way, ancester worship, the embodies wisdom of the ages preserved in the terrabytes of weirwood, collectively all the generations that kept the old ways became, in a sense, gods, not that anyone individually became a god, but that collectively, they have influence that is distinct from the anthropomorphic personifications of the gods of sea and air and even him of fire.

Note that the Seven embody human roles, could it be that the seven are a way to personify the old gods into sectors and is an evolution of the ancient beliefs of "old gods" ancester worship? that makes more sense to me.

***

Regarding sacrifice/human sacrifice. I think we're being prepped--in particular with the DWD revelations on the prince of pentos, sealord of braavos etc--for the revelation that the Prince who was Promised is a human sacrifice. Dany will sacrifice herself and her dragons to end the winter.

[darrylzero]

On the whole I'd tend to agree with much of this although I'd like to clarify a little on the Children and their Wood Dancers. Some have suggested that there may be two factions of Children; the cuddly tree hugging bunnies of ADwD and the Wood Dancers. If there is a split that would be the logical one, but I'm not convinced that the lot who have got Bran are anything like as cuddly as they pretend. The White Walkers on the other hand although certainly exhibiting similarities to the Wood Dancers (their stealth armour for a start - and the way they have been portrayed in the TV version as something suspiciously close to North American Wood Runners) are I think something different. I started off by thinking there was a connection with the Children but now I'm starting to think it might be more complicated and that if it does turn out that they're not on much the same side, it still doesn't follow that the Children are the good guys...

All well taken. I see these as two independent assertions, which could be interlinked but need not necessarily be:

1) The wood dancers, like the white walkers, were created from human children.

2) The CotF lost control of the wood dancers / white walkers.

The logical chain for point 1 goes something like this: 1) White walkers clearly take male infants, and many seem to believe that these eventually become new white walkers somehow; 2) There are some pretty intense similarities between what we know about the white walkers and what we know about the wood dancers; 3) Ummm... that's pretty much it.

For the second, we have no real evidence. However, it feels right to me. Not much to go on, I know.

If I hear you correctly, Black Crow, you're intrigued by assertion 1 above but less interested in the second. A number of other people have mused that the second might be true without considering the first (along the lines of the CotF might have unleashed the long winter and the white walkers to protect themselves from humanity).

But suppose both are true. Leave aside the question of whether the CotF that Bran has met are harmless, or what Bloodraven's agenda is, for the moment. If wood dancers were initially created from human stock to serve as better physical warriors than the CotF, on behalf of the CotF, when did they come to self-replicate? When did they become ice-based rather than wood-based? What is the role of peace between humanity and the CotF?

Well, it seems clear that any peace between humans and the CotF would mean that the children would have to agree to stop stealing human babies. If the wood dancers were dependent upon the the CotF doing so in order to reproduce, their very existence would be threatened by peace. If they were self-aware, wouldn't they reject this peace? Wouldn't they seek the means of their own reproduction? Suppose there was cold, dark magic emanating from the north that they could tap into...

All in all pretty tenuous -- but evocative, at least for me.

I dont think the children can be simply seen as good guys, there were being anniliated by the first men before they joined forces against a common enemy. Men are no friends to the CotF after all they stole their land. They serve their own purpose, but it would seem that the others are as much a threat to the CotF as they are to everyone else. Because of the numbers, men could defeat the others but the children cannot so they need help. They are between a rock and a hard place. That doesnt make them good or bad just pragmatic.

From my perspective, even if both suppositions above are true, the CotF are not necessarily any more "good" than the wood dancers / white walkers. First of all, they exist because of a pretty shady (though possibly justified) practice of baby-stealing. Moreover, if peace means that the CotF are going to stop making more of them, the wood dancers are acting in terms of self-preservation (as are the CotF and humanity).

[Frey Pie]

In the seven=Rhllor mellowed out it may be of interest to note that-the Old Gods have shown some magical potency through the weirnets,warging etc. So have the followers of Rhllor, the shadowbinders of Asshai and maybe a few others. Yet the religion wer exposed to more then all others, the seven, has not shown any sign of mystical powers or knowledge. This could link them to Rhllor but then how would the respective religions have forgotten all this?

[chris999]

In the seven=Rhllor mellowed out it may be of interest to note that-the Old Gods have shown some magical potency through the weirnets,warging etc. So have the followers of Rhllor, the shadowbinders of Asshai and maybe a few others. Yet the religion wer exposed to more then all others, the seven, has not shown any sign of mystical powers or knowledge. This could link them to Rhllor but then how would the respective religions have forgotten all this?

I think that the Seven are just false gods.

They remind me of the Catholic church kind of.

[Jojen]

From my perspective, even if both suppositions above are true, the CotF are not necessarily any more "good" than the wood dancers / white walkers. First of all, they exist because of a pretty shady (though possibly justified) practice of baby-stealing. Moreover, if peace means that the CotF are going to stop making more of them, the wood dancers are acting in terms of self-preservation (as are the CotF and humanity).

Just to clarify, the WW don't steal babies. Craster gives them up. But I agree, it's still a shady business.

[Elaena Targaryen]

In the seven=Rhllor mellowed out it may be of interest to note that-the Old Gods have shown some magical potency through the weirnets,warging etc. So have the followers of Rhllor, the shadowbinders of Asshai and maybe a few others. Yet the religion wer exposed to more then all others, the seven, has not shown any sign of mystical powers or knowledge. This could link them to Rhllor but then how would the respective religions have forgotten all this?

Speculation;

Well I suppose you could say that their can be a connection between the seven and the maesters, and we know the maesters seem to want to rid their world of magic. Before King's Landing the Starry Sept in Oldtown served as the seat of the High Septon for a thousand years before the Taragryens came. Aegon the Conqueror dated the begining of his reign from the day the HS anointed him in Oldtown. So it could be possible that the Citadel and the Faith of the Seven had some influences on eachother. They still seemed connected on some level now, like almost every castle has a maester and septon / sept.

But then there are the stories ( that I'm really not that familiar with ) of the seven all actually walking the earth in Andalos like in the story of Hugor of the Hill.

[lokisnow]

In the seven=Rhllor mellowed out it may be of interest to note that-the Old Gods have shown some magical potency through the weirnets,warging etc. So have the followers of Rhllor, the shadowbinders of Asshai and maybe a few others. Yet the religion wer exposed to more then all others, the seven, has not shown any sign of mystical powers or knowledge. This could link them to Rhllor but then how would the respective religions have forgotten all this?

I disagree, two things immediately spring to mind: when Catelyn prays to the seven before Stannis is killed she gets messages from them, visions of her family. The Mother saves Sansa from Sandor when he is waiting in her bed chamber to rape her.

[The Last Hero]

Also at the beginning of ASOS I remember Davos being spoken to by the seven while he is stranded after the Blackwater