Heresy 9

[Black Crow]

where is the quote from Gilly cant find it?

Again Clash of Kings Jon 3, where she's explaining that if her child is a boy he'll be given up to the "white gods" the "white shadows" and its when she says their eyes are as blue as stars that Jon remembers Othor and thinks to himself that she's seen them. It works fine in the book but its easy to see why it had to be translated for the screen into that seen with him actually watching a Walker collect a baby.

[Lady Olenna]

Clash of Kings Jon:3 the 19 wives are referenced a couple of times in that chapter. They include Gilly, pregnant for the first time, and Nella who has produced 6 sons.

:bowdown:

Thank you ever so much! I really was beginning to think I made it up.

If the WW are using Craster babes to repopulate, are there any theories other than a prayer offering for Craster to offer livestock?

I'm sort of thinking that maybe they raise the sons and somehow transform them into WW, instead of using the life force alone. But then there is the quote that babies stink of life to the WW. Obviously infants hold the key. It could be the act of sacrifice or even the sacrifice of a pure and innocent life.

The show really puts it out there that the WW aren't just your average monster so to speak. In season one we were shown how quick and stealth they are but also that they are intelligent. This time we see that they are deliberate in their handling of babies.

I'm always surprised that this is pretty much the only thread to discuss these points. How is everyone else on the site glossing over all this info? I love the series but honestly what keeps me really into it is finding out more about what ls beyond the wall. I love reading everyone's ideas and theories on here. The level of intelligence put forth on this thread is always a delight to get lost in.

Edited for spelling

[Black Crow]

I'm always surprised that this is pretty much the only thread to discuss these points. How is everyone else on the site glossing over all this info? I love the series but honestly what keeps me really into it is finding out more about what ls beyond the wall. I love reading everyone's ideas and theories on here. The level of intelligence put forth on this thread is always a delight to get lost in.

Cos we're heretics :cool4:

[Frey Pie]

:bowdown:

Thank you ever so much! I really was beginning to think I made it up.

If the WW are using Craster babes to repopulate, are there any theories other than a prayer offering for Craster to offer livestock?

I'm sort of thinking that maybe they raise the sons and somehow transform them into WW, instead of using the life force alone. But then there is the quote that babies stink of life to the WW. Obviously infants hold the key. It could be the act of sacrifice or even the sacrifice of a pure and innocent life.

The show really puts it out there that the WW aren't just your average monster so to speak. In season one we were shown how quick and stealth they are but also that they are intelligent. This time we see that they are deliberate in their handling of babies.

I'm always surprised that this is pretty much the only thread to discuss these points. How is everyone else on the site glossing over all this info? I love the series but honestly what keeps me really into it is finding out more about what ls beyond the wall. I love reading everyone's ideas and theories on here. The level of intelligence put forth on this thread is always a delight to get lost in.

Edited for spelling

Ya i had the same thought. I mentioned earlier near the beginning of the thread that i thought a willing sacrifice was needed.The babies cant be willing as they are not aware. Therefore i think that they are allowed grow to a certain age far North and become used to life with the Others i.e theyre kinda brainwashed. Then they voluntarily undergo a transformation. Either they give up their own life,mate with an other or are transformed into an Other. As to which of these it is i dont know.

Theres a reason the show showed this scene and one of these reasons is that while Craster sacrifices his sons to the Others,they dont necessarily sacrifice his sons in turn

[blackseer]

I am too lazy to look up if you have already discussed it in the last 9 threads, so I will just say it.

One thing that the TV show did that was different from the books is that the WW attacked ser Waymar and the old guy by surprise. In the books, the two times the WW appear, they wait until they are challenged or threatened to attack.

[Black Crow]

We've certainly discussed how in the books the Walkers seemed slightly less aggressive than their reputation would suggest, and as we've just been discussing here the way that one collecting Craster's son is depicted on the screen is consistent.

The seeming aggression of the White Walkers in the TV prologue is as you say at odds with this, but I think for a reason. In the book Ser Waymar is alone when the Walkers appear, wearing armour and apart from being tall, gaunt and pale, looking pretty normal. He challenges the first one, they fight, he goes down and the rest (like a pack of wolves as someone put it) close in and finish him off. The TV version had a very Last of the Mohicans feel to it with the White Walkers behaving very like wood runners - again the wood dancer comparison - as they kill Ser Waymar and chase down Will. I think it had to be done this way to emphasise the threat or supposed threat and that they belong in the woods.

Again if you go back to the Last of the Mohicans parallel. The Watch are the army patrolling out of their fort, the Wildlings are the pioneers/settlers in their cabins scraping farms out of the wilderness, and the Walkers are the Abenaki and the Hurons. I think establishing this was probably more important than a knightly duel.

[Lummel]

...One thing that the TV show did that was different from the books is that the WW attacked ser Waymar and the old guy by surprise. In the books, the two times the WW appear, they wait until they are challenged or threatened to attack.

TV vs book differences are going to appear partly because it's TV so it has to look good, the producers can't rely on your imagination in the same way as GRRM does, but also because the Producers have to work differently to create a certain impression in the minds of the viewers.

[Lummel]

... Either they give up their own life,mate with an other or are transformed into an Other. As to which of these it is i dont know...

I don't think that the white walkers mate with the children simply from the physical description of the children and the white walkers. The white walkers sound more like humans in terms of their size and shape while the children emphatically aren't.

[lokisnow]

Don't forget a high mortality rate for infants, the Wildling culture doesn't even name a child before it is a year old because they are so likely to die in the first year. Craster has nineteen wives at this point, but pregnancy tended to have high mortality rates itself, he probably loses a few wives to pregnancy every year. He has nineteen wives now, but he's probably had forty or more (i'd bet on more than a hundred) over they years. Keeping women constantly pregnant is a good way to keep them constantly dieing. This is also good for his personal longevity, because if most of the women die by the fifth or tenth pregnancy none of them have a chance to build up the age or experience to really establish their own authority in counter to Crasters, he remains the dominant figure with a constant cycle of wives dying off in childbed.

Unless of course part of the bargain is that in giving up his sons, his daughters will live and that in giving up his sons, his wives will have easy childbirth.

But I think the key we've not included in all this WW speculation is the phrase, "stink with life."

I think "stink with life" is connected with how the Undying of Qarth tried to feed off of Dany's life, they didn't try so much to feed off her body as to drain her of life. There are strong suggestions that Weirwoods do the same and feed off of life.

That would suggest that the Walkers, like the weirwoods, or a warged beast, in a sense, become some of what they feed off of. They feed off Craster's sons and in a sense become them, as part of that identity transfers with the life. Babies don't have much identity, but the life that was in them goes into the walkers perhaps.

Perhaps the WW are Ice dragons, of a sort.

Anyone else note that there was an awful lot of white mist in the forest when Jon was running to the babe?

[jon rr stark]

Again Clash of Kings Jon 3, where she's explaining that if her child is a boy he'll be given up to the "white gods" the "white shadows" and its when she says their eyes are as blue as stars that Jon remembers Othor and thinks to himself that she's seen them. It works fine in the book but its easy to see why it had to be translated for the screen into that seen with him actually watching a Walker collect a baby.

Thanks for that

interesting parallel with the NW being the shadow in the night and the WW being shadows ie both rangers.

Are they ranging for the white god or do they just follow the white god in the same way as we can say the starks/north follow the the old gods. Indeed can the white god be one of the old gods.

To revisit a point made by Tyrion that the wildlings are just the people who ended up on the wrong side of the wall. We know the giants helped build winterfell (wiki on winterfell) so before the wall there was free movement about the land. So when the wall was built those unlucky to be on the wrong side were cut off. The WW could well be part of this group. Another point just occured to me when Osha said the wildings wanted to move south of the wall because they were afraid of the increased activity of the others. I dont have the book at hand to check but I dont think she mentioned WW or 'white shadows' just the fear of the others, if this is correct it would imply a distinction between the WW and the others in the minds of the wildings who have first hand experience of both. (I may well be completly wrong on this)

[Bran Vras]

How about this:

Craster's daughters and wives seem safe from the cold gods/Craster's sons/whatever.

Let's turn to Mance. He was to be put in a cage to be sacrificed to R'hllor. The cage is important because it was partly made of weirwood.

In Ramsay's letter we read:

If you want Mance Rayder back, come and get him. I have him in a cage for all the north to see, proof of your lies. The cage is cold, but I have made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell.

It seems to be the opposite of the sacrifice at the Wall. Mance is given to the cold. But the skin of women protect him.

Here is the conversation between Roose and Ramsay in ADwD:

Ramsay’s face darkened. “If I cut off her teats and feed them to my girls, will she abide me then? Will she abide me if I strip off her skin to make myself a pair of boots?”

[Roose]

Only Lady Barbrey, whom you would turn into a pair of boots ... inferior boots. Human skin is not as tough as cowhide and will not wear as well.

Here is my suggestion: By wearing the skin of women, one can be protected from the cold gods/Craster's sons/whatever. Hence a source for the Boltons' habit of flaying.

[Frey Pie]

I don't think that the white walkers mate with the children simply from the physical description of the children and the white walkers. The white walkers sound more like humans in terms of their size and shape while the children emphatically aren't.

I think you may be getting mistaken by Crasters children and the children of the forest? I was talking about Crasters sons sacrifice here. Unless theres something inherently wrong with Crasters children im not aware of?

[Lummel]

Oh I see, I misunderstood you - yes I did think that you were referring to the children of the forest rather than the children of Craster.

But I still think that mating is unlikely, for one Craster is only giving them boys and the white walkers seem to be ultra low temperature creatures.

[Frey Pie]

Oh I see, I misunderstood you - yes I did think that you were referring to the children of the forest rather than the children of Craster.

But I still think that mating is unlikely, for one Craster is only giving them boys and the white walkers seem to be ultra low temperature creatures.

Ha thought so. And ya your in all likelyhood correct. Im just keeping in mind the story of the NK and his wight woman. Iv had the thought for a while that there is only the white woman and she is the key. After all only Crasters sons are sacrificed

[The Bashful Knight]

We know the giants helped build winterfell (wiki on winterfell) so before the wall there was free movement about the land. So when the wall was built those unlucky to be on the wrong side were cut off. The WW could well be part of this group. Another point just occured to me when Osha said the wildings wanted to move south of the wall because they were afraid of the increased activity of the others.

I thought that the Wall was built specifically to keep the WWs on the other side? Then the unlucky people on the wrong side became Wildlings and were stuck with the WWs, so when the WW started walking around again some like Osha etc decided to scarper.

[Francis Buck]

I thought that the Wall was built specifically to keep the WWs on the other side? Then the unlucky people on the wrong side became Wildlings and were stuck with the WWs, so when the WW started walking around again some like Osha etc decided to scarper.

Well, the idea is that we can't really be sure why and/or how the Wall was built, since the history of Westeros has proven to be rather unreliable. Personally, I'm partial to the idea that the White Walkers actually assisted the Children of the Forest in the building of the Wall, with the intention of keeping people out of the North (and thus preserving nature and all the old things, like weirwoods, direwolves, giants, the Children of the Forest, and the First Men), as opposed to keeping the White Walkers in. The fact that the Wall just happens to be made out of ice seems like a strange thing to keep out beings who are primarily associated with ice and coldness.

[Ser Lepus]

I thought that the Wall was built specifically to keep the WWs on the other side? Then the unlucky people on the wrong side became Wildlings and were stuck with the WWs, so when the WW started walking around again some like Osha etc decided to scarper.

I would say that the wildlings are descendants of people that fled north of the Wall, escaping from somebody more powerful, rather that having always lived there. When the Wall was first built, I bet no human being wanted to stay north of it and everybody migrated south, and for some time there were no humans past the Wall.

[lokisnow]

Well, the idea is that we can't really be sure why and/or how the Wall was built, since the history of Westeros has proven to be rather unreliable.

This is true, but I think that a lot of people have taken this precept to an extreme degree. We've had twelve years of people ardently denying/ignoring what Craster's wives said about WW=Craster's sons, it took the explicitness of the TV show to point out that Martin is NOT always lying to us in the books (despite some ardent beliefs that he is weaving so complex a tapestry of untruths that it would take another seven books to explain/retcon the 'lies')

As I said regarding the absence of a longhall in the first wildling village Martin ever wrote: sometimes a tree is just a tree, and it's more likely an oversight on his part because unimportant details like wildling village customs were NEVER fleshed out, it's very unlikely the lack of a longhall is a secret clue designed to conjure a deep meditation on the culture of the wildlings that will reveal the dark arts and hidden mysteries of the land beyond the wall. :)

[Black Crow]

I would say that the wildlings are descendants of people that fled north of the Wall, escaping from somebody more powerful, rather that having always lived there. When the Wall was first built, I bet no human being wanted to stay north of it and everybody migrated south, and for some time there were no humans past the Wall.

Well this is something we've discussed in relation to the Nights King and Joruman. In order for Joruman to have co-operated with Stark of Winterfell in bringing down Bran Stark the Nights King it rather suggests the Wildlings were at that time south of the Wall but were later driven beyond it or migrated beyond it rather than bend the knee to Winterfell.

[Black Crow]

We've had twelve years of people ardently denying/ignoring what Craster's wives said about WW=Craster's sons, it took the explicitness of the TV show to point out that Martin is NOT always lying to us in the books...

As I said regarding the absence of a longhall in the first wildling village Martin ever wrote: sometimes a tree is just a tree, and it's more likely an oversight on his part because unimportant details like wildling village customs were NEVER fleshed out, it's very unlikely the lack of a longhall is a secret clue designed to conjure a deep meditation on the culture of the wildlings that will reveal the dark arts and hidden mysteries of the land beyond the wall. :)

Please excuse my unbounded joy at the vindication delivered in that scene; but yes I have to agree that we're treading a fine line here between picking up real clues like Craster's wives and getting distracted by inconsequential details and discrepancies. Notwithstanding, we do seem to be on the right track