[Book Spoilers] Where is Catelyn Stark and what has HBO done with her?

[fauxkaren]

So...you think Cat is awesome and HBO is making her look less awesome?

I hated her from the books and actually like her on the show.

That's about the short of it, yes. I think that HBO is watering down Catelyn and taking away some of the things that I loved about her in the book. Book!Cat is a really wonderful and complex character, and I feel like HBO is simplifying her and I'm a bit disappointed.

[David Selig]

Actually Catelyn laments that she is treating with Renly in her chapter. It was Robb's idea to send her away - she'd have rather stayed by him and by her dying father, in the books.

I do dislike that they left out her advice to NOT SEND THEON to treat with Balon Greyjoy. And it was strange for her to say she wanted to go home. But I don't think it's fair to judge HBO as misogynist yet after only ONE episode - remember that trailer scene with her and Littlefinger? We don't know where her arc is going yet - I for one am not going to judge HBO as misogynist about Catelyn until I've seen more like 6-7 episodes.

Judging HBO on one episode is just silly. Besides, with the age gap, it's difficult for them to justify her constantly advising Robb (ie micromanaging, not in a broad sense - she still is an advisor and should remain one) or constantly criticizing his potential mistakes - he is 17-18, not 14.

There was a whole previous season in which Catelyn was a main character. Nobody is basing his/her opinion on just one problematic episode .

[Shienberg]

The books are the source. The TV show is a different entity. You'll enjoy it more if you accept that.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

Judging HBO on one episode is just silly. Besides, with the age gap, it's difficult for them to justify her constantly advising Robb (ie micromanaging, not in a broad sense - she still is an advisor and should remain one) or constantly criticizing his potential mistakes - he is 17-18, not 14.

Do you think it's difficult to justify Davos constantly advising Stannis or criticizing his potential mistakes?

Or do you think maybe Martin repeatedly shows how Stannis accepts Davos' counsel, not despite but because the truth is not always what he wants to hear, because an actual mature, secure and wise king listens to advice no matter the source?

Do you think Stannis is less manly because he admits he needs Davos? Robb is more manly for not needing Cat?

[Brewmaster]

The point that Cat's most ardent supporters seem to overlook is that its simply human nature to read and respond to things in a certain manner.

I am not a "Cat hater", from the book, but she's not my favorite and I did need a second read to get to the point where I understood her better.

When I say that Cat's actions need rationalizing more so than other characters, I'm not even speaking about the deeds themselves, necessarily, but how the books are written.

For example, when I point out that its only natural for readers to dislike Cat, because of her issues with Jon and the capture of Tyrion, early on in the book, among the defenses of Cat in this thread are that we only know that Cat is making a mistake with Tyrion because we have information, from other POVs that Cat lacks.

Well that's true, but it completely misses the point. We DO have that information and you can't take it away from us. I get what Cat's supporters think, but it takes a deeper level of reading into the story than is natural for most people to do. Readers aren't going to operate under the assumption that they don't know what's going on. Nobody reads like that.

This is not about misogyny, this is about human nature. And its natural for people to have negative reactions to characters that do wrong to other characters they like.

Its also pretty much human nature to root for the underdog. Jon, as a bastard with little status, is seen as an underdog early on. Tyrion, definitely the same.

Its also human nature to "pick sides". Cat is both set up against Jon and against Tyrion early on.

Its also human nature that first impressions are hard to overcome. Yes, Jaime overcomes his for many readers...it takes a lot of character change for that to overcome that impression. As the Cat supporters will tell you, Cat doesn't change nor should she, since she doesn't even have anything to apologize for.

That is a lot for Cat to overcome and it should not be a surprise that she is not liked. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with misogyny, it has to do with the hand she was dealt (or written with). Most readers aren't going to bother to really understand her motives after the early impressions they are left with. I didn't really understand her motives until a second read, knowing how everything would turn out.

Cat supporters here kind of want to have things both ways, because they don't want her blamed for things that spiraled out of control after Tyrion's capture, or the Red Wedding and what followed Jaime's release. Now having read the books multiple times, I completely agree that Cat's actions have less impact than they are often blamed for. But just like a reader knowing that Tyrion was being unjustly kidnapped, it takes outside POV and other book knowledge before you can realize that Cat's actions don't have as big of an effect. You don't know how much other players of the game are working behind the scenes and it takes a while to piece the puzzle together.

The end result is that, at those times in the books when Cat takes these actions, and when the consequences hit home, the typical first time reader (with all the knowledge that entails, that Cat doesn't have) will see them as Cat's fault as much, if not more, than anybody else.

Yes, with careful reading, Cat can be completely understand and justified. But it simply takes a level of reading and understanding that is not natural for most readers, particularly on first read, and certainly not for most TV watchers either, without being privy to the wealth of internal dialogue characters have.

Those of us on this forum are, for the most part, avid fans of the book series who don't mind reading it over and over. But the percentage of people that re-read a book series is small, and TV shows should not made to be understood on 2nd or 3rd viewing. The choice to make Cat more likable wasn't about sexism, it was about the problems in understanding her on a first read/watch.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

That you can't understand a character does not ever ever excuse expressing that lack of understanding or sympathy in sexist ways. I don't personally understand how anyone could blame everything all on Catelyn, even on my first read. I don't see how anyone could blame the Red Wedding on Cat especially before blaming it on Robb. I don't see how that is too hard at all to expect for a reader, unless you limit a reader's intelligence. I never saw a single thing as all Cat's fault. It was quite obvious to me that I was reading a story that embraced the nature of history to be about multiple causes and multiple effects.

It is perfectly possible to say "I can't get over her treatment of Jon" without saying "she's the wicked stepmother trope incarnate". It's perfectly possible to say "I thought arresting Tyrion was a mistake" instead of "Catelyn started the war it is all her fault". It is perfectly possible to say "Her thoughts are too depressing" instead of "She's a whiny bitch." It is perfectly possible to say "Releasing Jaime was foolish" instead of singling her out from the entire cast of characters as being emotional. It is perfectly possible to dislike her without saying she belongs only back in the kitchen. That is not too much to ask of reasonable adults. Find her a difficult character? Okay. Express your difficulties by falling back on sexist attitudes? Not okay.

And since this thread is about HBO's handling of Cat: they took out "It should have been you", which is huge, they added warm scenes with her other kids in the first episode, and people respond well to Michelle Fairley. They won't have to read her depressive thoughts because of the medium change. They didn't change the fact that she arrested Tyrion, and they probably won't change that she releases Jaime, so those are moot.

And if the rationale here is that it is okay for HBO to validate sexist attitudes by showing that Cat is a good mom because she wants to go home, that's just not okay. Neither was silencing her contributions as the only woman in warroom in the King in the North scene. None of these "A woman knows her place" things ought to make people like her better, and pandering to those attitudes is, no matter how you cut it, wrong. Sexist and wrong. Just because it works doesn't make it right.

If Catelyn made a big mistake (letting Jaime go), and Robb made a big mistake (marrying Jeyne), and then Robb on top of that ignores some of Catelyn's good advice, but Cat doesn't even have the power to ignore any of Robb's good advice, there's really no justification for validating the idea that he doesn't need her. Thus, there is really nothing Catelyn needs to be ashamed of for insisting that she stay. This is compounded and not undercut by the results: Bran and Rickon would have been safe if Robb had not let Theon go, as she suggested. Sansa and Arya would not currently be usable pawns as claims to the north if Robb had made the trade for Jaime legally, as she suggested. Everyone makes mistakes. But saying that Catelyn needs to be changed because of them, but not Robb, except in ways that actually give him credit for Cat's ideas, is just unfair. It is unfair.

[Brewmaster]

Nice straw man. You put in quotes a bunch of things that nobody in this argument said about Cat, so I'm not sure with whom you are arguing.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

Those are common things people say about Cat's character. You talked about public opinion of Cat, those opinions include the above. I'm not trying to argue your opinion of Cat, the purpose of my post is to say that people (not you, because you were not talking about your opinion, or this thread in specific, you were talking about public opinion). You are saying that it's human nature to dislike Cat. I am saying that human nature is not an excuse for the particulars in which way dislike of Cat is expressed. Nor is it an excuse for HBO to validate the sexist portions of Catelyn's PR problems.

Some of the reasons you gave for people disliking Cat were/are not going to be changed by HBO anyway. Some are ameliorated by the medium change itself. Some have already been changed in proportionate response to non-sexist complaints about Cat. Then there are those things that have been changed that are simply not necessary and ought not be pandered to.

If my use of "you" confused you then I apologize. I meant the generalized "you" as in "one", not you in particular.

[int11]

Pray tell, why didn't anyone listen to Gray Wind? His advice was as prudent as anyone's. At the gatehouse towers of the Twins he growls, leaps forward, snarls and refuses to listen to Robb's commands. Then he starts howling and bares his teeth and doesn't want to join.

For what it's worth I only read the books once, and I felt for Catelyn just as I did for many other characters (Jon, Tyrion, Jamie ... it will probably take a while before I forgive Theon, though, but I found his internal struggle extremely interesting and praise GRRM for that.) That she wasn't on Jon's or Tyrion's "team" didn't change that, and I always wanted Robb not to underestimate her advice (no, he doesn't always do that). She certainly gives the story more depth than a fly on the wall would, and in other ways than those I feel are portrayed in the TV show. I don't really care, though; the viewers will miss a lot of cool stuff, and that's why I always recommend the books to my friends before recommending the show.

[Honey Badger]

Not feeling the sexism angle, so going to ignore it.

For the Catelyn changes, I think they just want her more likable, which is the wrong path to take in my opinion. She is rightfully disliked for pushing Ned to be Hand, touching off the conflict by taking Tyrion, and freeing the Kingslayer. There's a lot of sympathy to be had as she's suffered, but I don't think the writers needed to change her. Although Martin is said to have helped with guiding the show and writing one episode per season. He probably approved this, just like how he likes how Robb is now getting a more fleshed out character than in the books.

[StarkBlack21]

What the writers seem to be doing with Catelyn is really upsetting me. In the original text, she was a pragmatic feudal lady with keen political insights, whose less competent teenaged son pushed her aside and wanted her to go away and leave him alone. A teenaged son who was portrayed as generally politically inept, and whose chest-thumping refusal to trade the Kingslayer for his sisters enabled the Red Wedding, a Lannister power grab through Sansa, and a Bolton power grab through a false Arya.

The way that she has been adapted for the screen is, frankly, sexist. She was a politically smart and ambitious woman who was ignored for merely being a woman while a young teen ruined their House through misplaced trust and naiveté. She is hated by fans for, well, being a politically smart and ambitious woman who interferes with the male “heroes” and points out their poor decisions instead of going back to her babies where she belongs.

So the way HBO decides to adapt her is to make Robb recite her lines from the book that show political insight, remove her from the table where the political decisions are being made, and validate all the misogyny being directed her way by having this adapted character say that her place is back with her babies (because, of course, that’s where a good woman belongs and should want to be!).

In the books, she was *right* in almost every call she made — but her opinions are dismissed because she is a woman and Robb is 1) a rebellious teen; and, 2) has embraced some of the ingrained sexism of his society and doesn't want his bannermen to see him taking advice from Mom. The commentary here, which passes straight over the heads of a lot of fans, is really genius. If Robb *had* listened to mommy, House Stark would not have been demolished the way it was.

And the writers chose to not only ignore that, but to diminish the female character so as to pump up the male — in a way that completely validates the misogyny targeting the character (a good woman’s place is with her babies and not involved in politics – in fact, if she’s involved in politics at all, it should be reluctantly!) but that also misses the point of the entire arc. My honest-to-God reaction was, WTF are you doing HBO?

Catelyn's plotline deals heavily with themes of sexism. After Ned’s execution, she was calling for peace while the men around her chose war (and devastated the North and the Riverlands). Robb wanted her to go back to Bran and Rickon but she wanted to stay with him, where the future of their family was being decided. It was her idea to visit Renly to attempt to make an alliance, not Robb’s. She wasn’t entirely against sending an envoy to Balon, just not Theon. She wanted Ned to go south to become Robert’s Hand.

Now, she’s been downgraded. One assumes that the reasons for it are three-fold: 1) To pump up Robb and make him sexier to the audiences instead of portrying the tragic boy king in over his head that he actually was; 2) to make her more palatable to audiences (because a woman’s place is with her babies, doncha know); and 3) to amend Cersei’s characterization as she gets the storyline of a son who has slipped her control instead.

Congratulations on either completely missing the entire point of a character arc and plotline or demonstrating a stupendous level of sexism, all while validating the misogyny that permeates this fandom.

Whoa! Let's not forget it was Catelyn's stupidity that started this war. First, Ned told her, let him handle it and don't do anything rash. What does she do? Snatch Tyrion. Then instead of taking Tyrion to Winterfell, where she would've had all the leverage and advantage with the whole North behind her, she goes and takes him to Lysa. Through Tyrion's wits, Cat loses him. And now she started a whole damn war -- that got her husband killed, and put her whole family in danger. And let's not forget it made Tywin Lannister raise hell and burn through her homeland, the Riverlands, and put them into a war -- leading to the rape and murders of several of the smallfolk.

And in one of the stupidest moves in history, this woman gave up the most prized hostage, behind her son's back -- sending Jamie Lannister home was a death sentence for Robb -- regardless of what he did for the Freys. The leverage was holding Jamie! She was going to trust the Lannisters to be honorable and return Sansa? Jesus!

Robb may not be the brightest politically, but let's not forget he gets some of his stupidity from his mother, Cat, who started the war of 5 KINGS.

[birdsong66]

Robb made not be the brightest politically, but let's not forget he gets some of his stupidity from his mother, Cat, who started the war of 5 KINGS.

Damn, Why stop there? Lets blame it on Areys, who slew Rickard and Brandon Stark, and Rhegar who "kidnapped" Lyanna, who touched off the rebellion with Robert, who married a Lannister, whose House gained influence and power, who counts as a member Jaime, who tossed Brandon, the younger, out a window, who fathered and incestuous child, Joffrey, with his sister, who made a second attempt to kill Brandon, the younger, and who beheaded the Lord of Winterfell, which caused Robb to call his banners, naming himself king of the North, a kingdom separate from the Seven, simultaneously to both Renly and Stannis naming themselves rightful heirs....and now we have the War of 5 Kings proper.

Didn't even have to mention Catelyn to arrive at the same conclusion.

Obviously, I have no reading comprehension skills at all.

Because it's all Catelyn's fault.

[Howdyphillip]

As I have argued for countless hours, I thought that Catelyn Stark made several mistakes in mothering her children. My opinion has been debated endlessly. I wish the show would have kept the character as she was rather than making all of these significant changes because it brings about good dialogue one way or the other.

I would also like to point out that the changes in her TV character happened immediately. She was the one trying to convince Ned to go to KL in the books, and Ned wanted to stay. The series reversed this.

[chavalah]

And in one of the stupidest moves in history, this woman gave up the most prized hostage, behind her son's back -- sending Jamie Lannister home was a death sentence for Robb -- regardless of what he did for the Freys. The leverage was holding Jamie! She was going to trust the Lannisters to be honorable and return Sansa? Jesus!

Robb may not be the brightest politically, but let's not forget he gets some of his stupidity from his mother, Cat, who started the war of 5 KINGS.

I just don't see why holding Jaime had any sway over the Red Wedding--which Tywin was planning before he knew anything about what happened. If Jaime were still a prisoner, he would have been left at Riverrun and Robb and his army would still be killed at the Twins. Once the northern army was decimated it was only a matter of time before the Lannisters seized control of Riverrun. That had nothing specific to do with whether Jaime was a prisoner or free; it's just numbers and dead kings.

Let's have some fairness here. Catelyn released a "hostage" in Jaime...Robb released a "hostage" in Theon, which caused the domino effect of his home being besieged, his brothers' alleged murders, and marrying Jeyne, which turned the Freys against him in the first place. The refrain of "Cat started the war" appears everywhere, despite the fact that there is countless bits of evidence of other people knowingly or unknowingly contributing to the civil unrest. Robb's actions and decisions had far more effect in leading to the deaths of most of his army, his brothers for all he knew, and his mother. And yet no one calls him a kinslayer.

Interesting to note that even when having some polar opposite feelings on Cat, many people here wish her tv portrayal was more true to the books. At least we can agree on something. :P Wouldn't have thought it on the subject of Catelyn Stark!

[Morrigan]

That gave the Lannisters the reason they needed to declare war on the Riverlands so yes, she affected tons of people's lives.

We were talking about her decision to free Jaime.... -_-

[Tywin's bastard]

We were talking about her decision to free Jaime.... -_-

I'm usually reading the forum on several tabs at a time and I must have mixed some threads up since I have otherwise no idea how I went from writing about the correct thing to switching topic. Sorry about that.

But I still see it as a big blunder since there's no remotely logical reason to give away your, by far, biggest bargaining chip to instead hope on the good will of the Lannisters. With Jaime captured the northerners had some security if the war started to go less well. Without him they had no such thing and Sansa and Arya became stronger cards in the enemy's hand.

It's understandable from her current mind-set and a great move for the story, not least because it starts the POV of my perhaps favorite character, but it was a hope for herself and a devastating one for the rest of the North.

[Dead Viper]

I don't really care how the show differs from the books as long as it's an enjoyable show.

Daenerys seems to be getting the opposite treatment (stronger character) and no one is praising HBO for that. Robb needs to be portrayed as a hero character. If Catelyn has to be contained to accomplish that I'm okay with it. The story itself is not yet strong enough to attract viewers without such a character present. Killing off Ned left a big hole which needs to be filled for the viewers. I look forward to seeing Robb as the leader he couldn't be in the books.

Catelyn does mistakes, as most characters in the series. She didn't start the war, but the kidnapping of Tyrion had severe consequences for the Stark family and the people of the Riverlands. If Tyrion wasn't kidnapped, Tywin most likely would've gone to Kings Landing with his host. His presence there would for one have saved Ned's life.

I don't like Catelyn, but her actions have been critical in shaping the series. I appreciate her character, but I don't like her.

[maria underfoot]

Catelyn is not my favorite character, but I strongly believe that her chapters were interesting and very well-written. She portrays both the grief-stricken mother and widow, in a most moving and sweet way (Her thoughts sometimes brought tears to my eyes, and I'm not even a mom yet), but also the very politically able and shrewd woman who wants to actively help her son, not get back to breastfeeding and cooking at Winterfell.

That being said, I don't know why so many people hate her, or why they blame her for causing the war! The Lannisters slept together, which would eventually be known, and would invoke Robert's anger and thus a war between Lannisters and Baratheons, in which the Starks would be forced to participate. And then Jaime pushed Bran. Let's not forget Lysa's part in the war. So my point is: even if Catelyn hadn't abducted Tyrion, Starks would still blame the Lannisters for both Bran's fall and Jon Arryn's death, Ned would eventually find out about the twincest, and voila, we have a war. And it's Robb who makes the fatal mistake by marrying Jeyne. Cat did nothing but speed things up a bit, but if we consider her position when Tyrion recognized her at the inn, it's no wonder she reacted the way she did. Her only flaw is her hatred for Jon, but who wouldn't hate being reminded of their husband's infidelity and indifference to their own person? After that, she's been nothing short of an invaluable guide and advisor to Robb: probably the only one who he can fully trust. There's no need to point out the wisdom of her advice, many of you've already done that excellently. Just to sum them up:

-She brings the Freys over to Robb's cause.

-She suggests being the envoy to Renly, a plan which could have worked brilliantly if not for a certain red priestess.

-She advises Robb against Theon's going to Pyke. Had Robb listened to her advice, Winterfell would still be whole.

-She reminds Robb to drink and eat at the Freys

And many others. Her words in general make her out to be a smart, capable, honest and realistic person.

Now, the point of the thread is not whether Cat is a nice character or not, and I apologise for making it a debate on that. (I promise, I'll behave :P)

So, I completely agree with you. She is being undermined to a frail and unpolitical mother, whose only capacity is taking care of her smaller children, not helping her eldest, grown-up, hero-like son. She wishes to be with her babies, cause she thinks that she's no valuable help for Robb, and the sad part is that she admits that herself. Robb treats her like he owns her, while in the book, when they were alone, it was her who had the upper hand. The plan of going to Renly ought to have been her idea.

I'm not loving that they're presenting Robb like this total hero. Handsome, strong, cheeky, fearless, almost arrogant. I also disliked Robb's scene with Jaime. Ser Jaime Lannister, the Kinglsayer, is not afraid of anything, let alone a teenager who has the need to boast about his victories.

Having said all that, I think we should give the show the chance to contradict us.

[Hear Us Roar]

Cat was a fool for letting Jaime and Tyrion slip through her fingers.

[Honey Badger]

I just don't see why holding Jaime had any sway over the Red Wedding--which Tywin was planning before he knew anything about what happened. If Jaime were still a prisoner, he would have been left at Riverrun and Robb and his army would still be killed at the Twins. Once the northern army was decimated it was only a matter of time before the Lannisters seized control of Riverrun. That had nothing specific to do with whether Jaime was a prisoner or free; it's just numbers and dead kings.

Plus remember when Tywin started referring to Tyrion as his son. He was operating under the assumption that Jaime was bound to die. Personally, if I were a Stark, I would have had Bolton start in on Jaime and not stop until it was over and Robb could hack off his head. Ned was executed despite the promise of the Wall, and Bran was thrown out of a tower. Even if it meant Sansa's life, I would have turned it into a full on bloodfeud using Jaime as the example. The North is a hard place, so they would have understood the execution. However, in gentlemanly King's Landing, the Lannisters would have lost support if they tortured and killed Sansa, so it's more likely they would have kept her alive as a bargaining chip.