Women, Men, SFF part deux

[Drowned Crow]

"rabid animal" has slightly different connotations too since moon is thai. Lots of baggage there.

Is there a long history of calling Thai people rabid animals that I'm not aware of?

[AverageGuy]

Is there a long history of calling Thai people rabid animals that I'm not aware of?

Thai specifically, no. A history of POCs being called animals, yes.

I'm pretty cynical about ROH's stuff, but...

Anyway, I don't think there's much to disagree with in Valente's article.

[Lyanna Stark]

Curious if anyone has a good fantasy romance to recommend.

I haven't found any fantasy romance that isn't at least somewhat stereotypical. The best ones so far are probably Rachel Morgan (The Hollows) and that includes stuff like chicks in leather and hot vampire lovers. It just feels that as a genre, SFF has a long way to go in this regard.

Tbh, it's not actually anywhere near a romance in any way, shape or form, but at least Ursula K LeGuin brings up some level of discussion about gender and sexuality in "The Left Hand of Darkness", but a as stated, a romance it is not.

EDIT: Or maybe I just read the wrong stuff. This is absolutely possible.

[Sheep the Evicted]

The blog side of the internet always suprises me. If Doyle had written that Martin post on say 4chan the backlash would have been every bit as intense (at least) but many, many people would have congratulated her on being such a good troll. Which she is.

Good read though.

[Sci-2]

The blog side of the internet always suprises me. If Doyle had written that Martin post on say 4chan the backlash would have been every bit as intense (at least) but many, many people would have congratulated her on being such a good troll. Which she is.

Good read though.

I also liked Doyle's Harry Potter Review.

ETA: Thanks Lyanna. Yeah, I think it goes back to the fact that relationships in SFF are usually poorly depicted, but some of that can be intentional as there is an erotica element to SFF....however clumsy and hamfisted that writing turns out to be.

I can't imagine trying to do some of the stuff mentioned in River of Gods, for example. Some kind of hand-stand sex flip? I had to reread that part multiple times to even understand what was happening.

ETA II: First comment from that link is a valid and interesting counterpoint:

http://globalcomment.com/2011/in-praise-of-hermione-granger-series/#comment-59866

[Datepalm]

The most interesting thing in the Mamatas link was the question, somewhere in the comments:

How do you distinguish between serious and spurious accusations of racism and sexism?

Thats the heart of the thing, to my mind. Is it entirely subjective? If I see sexism then it's there and if you don't then it isn't and theres no point in talking about it? Is it there if the aggrieved party sees it and we should respect that? Are there criteria we can put down as If X, then Y, and if A then no B, absolutely? I don't know, but I think in a way the question that interests me more is how do we make it better, not just how do we talk and talk about it.

Bakker is trolling Requires Only Hate's trolling now? Lol, how have I missed this. My life will never be complete again. I will say this for RoH - I rarely particularly agree with her, and often find her criticism more offensive than what she's offended at, but she does generate debate, and that debate does ripple out and set radical standards that even if we mostly don't aspire to, still improve things just by being there, so kudos for that. (Plus, really, anyone who annoys Bakker goes up in my estimation. Oh well.)

Fantasy Romance - this is mostly fantasy books i've read that have a significant romantic element, not "Romantic Fantasy" thats in the romance genre:

Firethorn by Sarah Micklem is an excellent second world fantasy where a main plot is the romance between a nobleman and a commoner. Its the least fairy tale such romance ever, with a lot of really thorny issues power, status, gender, wealth, class, etc always being front and center in fairly brutal ways.

The Grand Ellipse by Paula Volsky - kind of a weird second world steampunk romp with a romantic element. Its not the main story, but its there and fairly significant. A mild love triangle.

Deathless by, apropos, Catherynne Valente - dark, magic realist sort of fairly tale retelling in revolutionary and world war 2 USSR. Theres a twisted, surreal, somewhat BDSMish romance.

Cold Magic by Kate Elliott has a bit of classic romance set up with the heroine finding herself in an arranged marriage and starting to think hes maybe not that bad after all. It doesn't really go the way a romance would and it's not the heart of the story, but its there.

[Grack21]

Firethorn is next on my to be read pile.

And iI just want to restate, as much as I ...dislike ROH..I do NOT think it's OK to hurl hate speech back at her. I dislike hate/violence speech no matter where it originates from. So, when ROH starts calling for certain people to be horrible murdered, yeah, I think that's wrong. But that doesn't mean I approve of all the "lol she needs oto get laid" shit that popped up afterwards.

I don't but into the idea that because someone has been a victim they're allowed special rules.

And on that, I think I'll disspear for a few days now.

[Sci-2]

Thanks for the suggestions Datepalm. I'm toying with purchasing Bear's Range of Ghosts, which apparently has a love story included.

Also, the setting does seem pretty different from the norm.

As to the Criteria Question in all its varied forms, generally I think it's one of those things that requires discussion rather than a checklist. I thought Mamatas covered the Moon specific Criteria Questions pretty well.

[Sheep the Evicted]

Bakker is trolling Requires Only Hate's trolling now?

News to me. Links please.

[Seli]

I think you guys are tying yourself into knots to keep from agreeing with Valente - she voicing an opinion that is almost self evident and frankly rather unremarkable, but she's one of those feminzis and uses language like "suppression of voices" and "minority narratives" and whatever else is hip in identity politics these days, so we musn't agree with her!*

...

Valente has a talent to be right on something in such a un-nuanced way that it takes me at least some effort to control my first few knee-jerk reactions to say something about some minor details where she is cutting corners. The fact remains that the core message is often important, and needs powerful voices to bring them to attention.

Strangely it is a lot easier to just ignore people who are utterly wrong in a similar way.

[Datepalm]

Thanks for the suggestions Datepalm. I'm toying with purchasing Bear's Range of Ghosts, which apparently has a love story included.

Me too, its on my immediate virtual to-read pile somewhere, I just keep trying not to start more stuff before I finish other stuff. Damn it.

News to me. Links please.

Dunno, i'm asking too - Mamatas in the link Sciborg posted seems to be responding to Bakker responding to RoH. Which i'm too tired to go actually dig up, since i'm sure the reality of it will be blander than what my mind has conjured up, in classic horror movie fashion.

ETA - forgot my actual reason for posting, ie, to add another fantasy-with-sexytimes-bits rec:

Shades of Milk and Honey, by Mary Robinette Kowal - fantasy Austen pastiche. (so no actual sexytimes) I thought it was kind of amazing, in an understated way, but I've since realized that might be because i've never actually read any Austen or any Austen imitations or pastiches of anything in that style at all, so the sheer precision and quality of writing of it really impressed me, but I'm wondering if thats more that style itself. Either way, I still really enjoyed it.

[Grack21]

If I recommend The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by NJ Jesmin will people throw rocks at me?

Also anything by Volsky is GOLD.

And I havn't read Cold Magic yet but every other Elliott book is awesomesauce.

[Callan S.]

It's the difference between calling someone an asshole or whiny troll versus using language about their sexuality/race/etc.

Yeah, well the problem is both of those name callings are childish. That's part of the issue of childish name calling - to go there validates sexist statements as those are childish as well (it's not like it's going to be childish, yet somehow retain an adult discipline to keep to 'asshole' side of the line). Unless sexist statements aren't childish and are actually more legitimate than that?

[Prince Alexander]

Also anything by Volsky is GOLD.

Though I've read it only once when I was younger, Illusion had a huge impact on me. Afraid to re-read and get disappointed now that I'm older for some reason.

Edit: eh, and as for OP, a bit self-evident, as others said. Internet(world) is full of pretty terrible people, news?

[Sci-2]

@Callan: I'm actually not sure what you're saying here?

@Grack:

If I recommend The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by NJ Jesmin will people throw rocks at me?

As a romance? Not sure as I didn't get very far. But honestly it was a weird year. In fact I think in 2011 I acquired more unfinished books than ever before so I'm going to try and be like Datepalm and resist buying new stuff for a bit.

I actually drove by Jeminsin's blog today and noticed she has a few posts on writing women, which I'll add to this pseudo-archive:

There's No Such Thing As A Good Stereotype (dovetails into other issues)

Women, Warriors, and Gender Policing

[Kalbear]

Unless sexist statements aren't childish and are actually more legitimate than that?

...Yes? As are racist statements. Unless you mean they're legitimate as in 'more accurate', in which case this would be the same crap you spewed over at Watts' blog.

But otherwise, sexist/racist remarks are certainly more powerful to those who have experienced sexism/racism all of their lives. Who have seen their family get hurt because of racism, or have been denied jobs because of sexism. I understand that you somehow completely and totally lack the capacity for this empathy given that this has been told to you over and over again for the last 9 months, but perhaps other people will see it for the self-evident truth that it is.

[Grack21]

...Yes? As are racist statements. Unless you mean they're legitimate as in 'more accurate', in which case this would be the same crap you spewed over at Watts' blog.

But otherwise, sexist/racist remarks are certainly more powerful to those who have experienced sexism/racism all of their lives. Who have seen their family get hurt because of racism, or have been denied jobs because of sexism. I understand that you somehow completely and totally lack the capacity for this empathy given that this has been told to you over and over again for the last 9 months, but perhaps other people will see it for the self-evident truth that it is.

Um, I think I actually just a agreed with something you said. I have to go outside and see if it's raining frogs.

[Grack21]

@Grack:

As a romance? Not sure as I didn't get very far. But honestly it was a weird year. In fact I think in 2011 I acquired more unfinished books than ever before so I'm going to try and be like Datepalm and resist buying new stuff for a bit.

I actually drove by Jeminsin's blog today and noticed she has a few posts on writing women, which I'll add to this pseudo-archive:

There's No Such Thing As A Good Stereotype (dovetails into other issues)

Women, Warriors, and Gender Policing

Well, depending on who you ask around here, its either OMG THIS IS SO ROMANCY or NO IT DOESN'T HAVE ANY AT ALL YOU SUCK. I think its somewhere in between.

Jeminsin had a blog post about this board a while back. It was not....positive. I don't blame her a bit though.

Bakker is trolling Requires Only Hate's trolling now? Lol, how have I missed this. My life will never be complete again. I will say this for RoH - I rarely particularly agree with her, and often find her criticism more offensive than what she's offended at, but she does generate debate, and that debate does ripple out and set radical standards that even if we mostly don't aspire to, still improve things just by being there, so kudos for that. (Plus, really, anyone who annoys Bakker goes up in my estimation. Oh well.)

See, there's the thing that people often say about ROH that I disagree with, People say her...let's say..colorful blog posts get the discussion out there and people talking, but I never see anyone actually talking about the stuff she brings up in her posts, they talk about the way she posts, and their support/disdain of such.

[Datepalm]

Sure, it's a high signal to noise ratio, but we do talk gender because of her. Theres always people who's idea of talking about books is actually talking about themselves talking about books, but at least the books do get through sometimes, and i'll take what I can get.

[Lyanna Stark]

Paula Volsky, yes, read both The Grand Eclipse and The Gates of Twilight and prefer the latter, actually. Both are definitely worth a read and have some decent relationships in them with some actual build up.

If Bakker end up trolling something and we know it for sure, please PM me the link. I feel too intimidated by the current trolling to wade through it all (signal to noise ratio is definitely a good way of describing it :lol: )