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[Book Spoilers] Ep 202 Discussion

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A couple of people have said it now, Ghost is out hunting frequently. I would imagine more so at night. It's likely he makes the save to begin 2.03, however.

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Well, that quote from ASOS might imply they had sex. Or it might not. Sex usually doesn't kill people, even tired or depressed people. That's the beauty of mystery. Not everything must be dumbed down to a yes/no question. That's what made the books great.

But I think the argument whether it's true to the books or not kinda misses the real point. That scene wasn't put in the episode for its value to the story. It wasn't in the books so no one can honestly say it is vital or even important to the story. From the story point of view it would've been better/more shocking to keep the shadows a mystery the way it's in the books.

It wasn't a mystery in the books. The Shadowbaby quote isn't the only spot, there are multiple points in the books that tell the story of Stannis fucking Mel. And, he flat out admits it to Davos.

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I am in the camp that had no problem at all with Stannis and Mel getting it on. I think it was heavily implied in many places in the books.

I am trying to recall the timeline. Stannis should be meeting/killing Renly in the next episode? That will probably be the ending of episode 3. But when does Stannis take Stormsend? Is it right after he kills off Renly? If so, maybe they needed a little bit of time in between Stannis' encounters with Mel, since it drains him so much.... I do hope HBO makes it very apparent that the shadow babies look like Stannis. I seem to recall Catlyn remembering that what she saw kill Renly had "Stannis' shadow".....

I also remember thinking in ADWD during Mel's POV chapters, when she is talking about glamors and such, that she needs things from people to work her magic, whether its bones from armor, or the "seed" of her king. I think that was the final nail in the coffin for me to confirm what she had done to make the shadow babies in previous books.

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Above any other, her telling Davos in plain English that she's used Stannis up too much and, if he really wants to help, he should come to her chambers one night and trade his life-fire for pleasure is beyond a hint. How anyone can read that and not see it is beyond me. And that's just one quote among several. Didn't Mel even comment in her POV in ADwD that her bed was seeing much use since Stannis had been away?

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Can I just say that one of my favorite parts of the show is the opening I jumped for joy when I saw Pyke in the opening credits. It is a brilliant sequence and I am trying my damnest to spread the word to non-book readers that you shkould not just fast forward as many of them have told me they do! For shame! So help me fellow GoT lovers to tell people to watch the beautiful beginnings!

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I have read a lot of posts about how Dillane isn't carrying it as Stannis. I disagree. I especially liked the moment when he asked Melissandre what she whispered to Matthos. His stare is pretty spot on with what I viewed as Stannis. Also remember he really has not gotten much screen time I think they will put more emphasis on him and Davos when he meets up with Renly all the way to Blackwater. That is my guess at any rate. Dillane is a fantastic actor all I am saying is give him a chance.

I'm willing to give him a chance, but I've been disappointed so far. He does not communicate strength and power, only inflexibility and weakness. Book-Stannis is the most formidable commander in the 7 kingdoms. So far I have not seen this side of him. Is this because of the actor or the script?

I am not one to complain about script departures from the book. I think they not only are inevitable but desirable, especially for these books. I'm willing to give the writers a lot of slack. But I hope that Stannis gets better.

Edited by Strider

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Well, that quote from ASOS might imply they had sex. Or it might not. Sex usually doesn't kill people, even tired or depressed people. That's the beauty of mystery. Not everything must be dumbed down to a yes/no question. That's what made the books great.

But I think the argument whether it's true to the books or not kinda misses the real point. That scene wasn't put in the episode for its value to the story. It wasn't in the books so no one can honestly say it is vital or even important to the story. From the story point of view it would've been better/more shocking to keep the shadows a mystery the way it's in the books. The real reason for that scene was HBO's "boob quota".

I'm sorry, but you're just assuming bad faith of the showrunners here. This scene is here because it happened in the book, we just didn't get to see it due to lack of POV, anymore than we got to see Robb interact with Jaime or Cersei with Joffrey. And yes, it's vital - because the audience needs to understand what's going to happen at the end of episode 4.

If Melisandre simply showed up looking pregnant and gave birth to a shadowbaby out of nowhere, the audience wouldn't understand it, and wouldn't invest anything in that moment. Instead, they're being handed a huge headfake - they think Melisandre is going to have Stannis' baby and then we're going to see a shocking inversion of nature that is going to stun people, not just because it's one of the few scenes of blatant magic we've seen yet but also because it's going to confound their expectations about what was going on with Stannis and Melisandre and the pregnancy.

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I am trying to recall the timeline. Stannis should be meeting/killing Renly in the next episode? That will probably be the ending of episode 3. But when does Stannis take Stormsend? Is it right after he kills off Renly? If so, maybe they needed a little bit of time in between Stannis' encounters with Mel, since it drains him so much.... I do hope HBO makes it very apparent that the shadow babies look like Stannis. I seem to recall Catlyn remembering that what she saw kill Renly had "Stannis' shadow".....

Episode 3 is Catelyn discussing peace terms with Renly when he gets the news about the siege of Storms End, then Stannis meets Renly in episode 4, and episode 5 suggests that the shadowbaby will be the capper to episode 4.

I think they're going to blend the second shadowbaby in with the first and have Davos row Melisandre over as she gives birth to the one that kills Renly.

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I’m not worried about Stannis/Mel knocking boots being explicit rather than implicit…it’s TV after all. But Mel promising to give him a male heir doesn’t work for me. It changes her character and motivation.

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They aren't likely going to worry about the second shadow baby, I imagine Renly will be killed in Storm's End. It's an easy way to cut an unimportant plot point and simplify things.

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Well, that quote from ASOS might imply they had sex. Or it might not.

:lol: Seriously? How can people be this dense? Let us post the quote again, with some highlights:

“Is the brave Ser Onions so frightened of a passing shadow? Take heart, then. Shadows only live when given birth by light, and the king’s fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It might well kill him.” Melisandre moved closer. “With another man, though ... a man whose flames still burn hot and high ... if you truly wish to serve your king’s cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make...”

“. . . a horror.” Davos retreated from her. “I want no part of you, my lady. Or your god. May the Seven protect me.”

You have to be deliberately obtuse to not realize she's talking about sex. Come on now.

Above any other, her telling Davos in plain English that she's used Stannis up too much and, if he really wants to help, he should come to her chambers one night and trade his life-fire for pleasure is beyond a hint. How anyone can read that and not see it is beyond me. And that's just one quote among several. Didn't Mel even comment in her POV in ADwD that her bed was seeing much use since Stannis had been away?

Yup:

Melisandre had spent the night in her chair by the fire, as she often did. With Stannis gone, her bed saw little use. She had no time for sleep, with the weight of the world upon her shoulders.

And just in case some people want to be deliberately obtuse again and say she used the bed for sleeping, no, she doesn't use beds for sleeping. The passage above follows up with,

And she feared to dream. Sleep is a little death, dreams the whisperings of the Other, who would drag us all into his eternal night. She would sooner sit bathed in the ruddy glow of her red lord’s blessed flames, her cheeks flushed by the wash of heat as if by a lover’s kisses. Some nights she drowsed, but never for more than an hour.

So she doesn't use her bed much anymore, because she doesn't need to sleep much, nor does she want to. When Stannis was there, she did use the bed. Geez, I wonder what she used it for. :rolleyes:

I do agree that some of the sex scenes are gratuitous and stupid. Particularly the additional brothel ones. And it could be argued that showing Mel/Stannis having it on on-screen instead of off-screen wasn't the right decision or that the placement of that scene was too soon or whatever (personally I think it's fine by itself, but a bit too early in the season, especially in an episode with a large number of porn scenes already haha). But to bitch that it's not canon or not from the books is just hilarious.

Edited by Morrigan

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I'm sorry, but you're just assuming bad faith of the showrunners here. This scene is here because it happened in the book, we just didn't get to see it due to lack of POV, anymore than we got to see Robb interact with Jaime or Cersei with Joffrey. And yes, it's vital - because the audience needs to understand what's going to happen at the end of episode 4.

If Melisandre simply showed up looking pregnant and gave birth to a shadowbaby out of nowhere, the audience wouldn't understand it, and wouldn't invest anything in that moment. Instead, they're being handed a huge headfake - they think Melisandre is going to have Stannis' baby and then we're going to see a shocking inversion of nature that is going to stun people, not just because it's one of the few scenes of blatant magic we've seen yet but also because it's going to confound their expectations about what was going on with Stannis and Melisandre and the pregnancy.

Here, here.

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:lol: Seriously? How can people be this dense? Let us post the quote again, with some highlights:

You have to be deliberately obtuse to not realize she's talking about sex. Come on now.

Yup:

And just in case some people want to be deliberately obtuse again and say she used the bed for sleeping, no, she doesn't use beds for sleeping. The passage above follows up with,

So she doesn't use her bed much anymore, because she doesn't need to sleep much, nor does she want to. When Stannis was there, she did use the bed. Geez, I wonder what she used it for. :rolleyes:

I do agree that some of the sex scenes are gratuitous and stupid. Particularly the additional brothel ones. And it could be argued that showing Mel/Stannis having it on on-screen instead of off-screen wasn't the right decision or that the placement of that scene was too soon or whatever (personally I think it's fine by itself, but a bit too early in the season, especially in an episode with a large number of porn scenes already haha). But to bitch that it's not canon or not from the books is just hilarious.

Well stated!

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It's quite a leap to go from Mel and Stannis have sex to the invisible assassin was actually given birth by her, if we don't actually see her being pregnant first. If they show her pregnant then I would agree with you.

Not sure what you're getting at there - if they had saved the Table scene until after Renly's murder, there would be no leap to make at that point; shock at his murder would be everything. Shocked understanding would then come after the Table scene, before Davos rows her out to Stormsend with the Audience now knowing what to expect.

I might be wrong in hindsight after the season ends and it all may tie up brilliantly, but right now, it just feels cackhanded at this point! :)

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I’m not worried about Stannis/Mel knocking boots being explicit rather than implicit…it’s TV after all. But Mel promising to give him a male heir doesn’t work for me. It changes her character and motivation.

I don't think it does. As I've said, she only brings up the child when Stannis brings up his wife - the child reference is tactical, not motivational. The motivation is clear - Stannis needs to give all of himself to the Lord of Light to achieve victory.

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Not sure what you're getting at there - if they had saved the Table scene until after Renly's murder, there would be no leap to make at that point; shock at his murder would be everything. Shocked understanding would then come after the Table scene, before Davos rows her out to Stormsend with the Audience now knowing what to expect.

No it wouldn't, because the idea that the shadow was something she had to actually give birth to rather than just conjure up is not a logical conclusion from just seeing them have sex. But if we see her pregnant before the first (or only?) shadow over a time period, when she couldn't possibly be showing a normal pregnancy, then you immediately know something is up, especially when Dany never showed her pregnancy.

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Does anyone else think that although the Stannis actor is doing a good job, when he says

"I cannot defeat my brother in the field"

its one of the worst delivered lines in the series.

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Does anyone else think that although the Stannis actor is doing a good job, when he says

"I cannot defeat my brother in the field"

its one of the worst delivered lines in the series.

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They are changing alot. I like the changing with the indivdual scenes while keeping the esscense of the story still there. However they seem to be cutting corners and taking out alot of characters. Shireen, Bywater, and they killed Rakharo!! I also believe the way the show is going that they are going to cut Edric Storm aswell. Not cool. They seem to be just cutting down the story alot in a attempt to pop off new seasons. I would have wished they spent more time getting stronger acotrs for ahsa/yara, and gilly, and spending more time on the story. THEY ARE CUTTING TO MUCH OUT WTF!!!! PATCHFACE!!!! NO!!!

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It's clear Stannis has slept with Melisandre in the novels -- the shadow she gives birth to is his shadow! -- but it's quite subtle.

I really would have preferred some more ambiguity about the whole thing on screen though. They could have gone through that whole scene and still left it up to interpretation whether Stannis gets his freak on...it might have made the eventual shadow baby more chilling in that respect, much in the way it is in the books. Down the line, the Davos/Mel scene where she offers herself to him, that could confirm it then, but some ambiguity would have served the tension of the story better, as well as given the non-book viewers something more to debate at the water cooler...

-Cersei. Too much attempts are being made to make her sympathetic to the audience. She ordered the killing of the bastards in the book and that is how it should have stayed.

And damn it, Han shot first too!

-Bronn as Lord Commander makes sense. Bywater is just another character to add.

I wonder at the condensing of too much though. Not having some of Tyrion's appointees and people about makes his fall after the Blackwater a little less satisfying. Everyone he surrounds himself with before the Blackwater is either dead or turned on him by the end of it and it really helps motivate him in ASOS and beyond. Peter Dinklage will certainly not lose his nose either. I do have concerns about how this will play out down the line, but I'll keep the faith over all.

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