mediterraneo Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Loras is the hooded man in Winterfell.*snicker* AND a secret Targaryen, which explains all his parallels with Jaime. More seriously: I still have problems with this idea.How exactly did the Tyrell motivate all the surviving 1000 Lannister troops (people that are from the Westerlands and have loyalties there) NOT to tell home that they didn't fight on Dragonstone, but are really betraying their loyalties to pass to the Tyrell with arms and equipment (leaving wifes, families... Oh, that's why!)I can buy exagerations on Loras destiny be made if, say, people has seen Loras (or someone in his armour) getting hit by oil during a final attack on the last redout. Or if they didn't, maybe less people seen how the last tower was exactly taken.But you cannot make an army to fake 1000 deaths (50% of the force!) to their masters, families and all during wartime. And to do what? To have the privilege of going to war far from home to save Tyrell's vassals homes? I would want to go back to the my Westerland home, in peace, as those lucky bastards that are with the Kingslayer... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 I'm not sure about the whole Tyrell meta-conspiracy to poison Joffrey from the start and now to feign Loras' injury in order for Cersei to overreach and bring herself down.It seems too high risk. Four Tyrells were imprisoned and accused of fornication because of Cersei's accusations and none of them are in the clear yet, indeed Margaery may still be in very serious danger.Why would they send Loras to Dragonstone and keep him there for some unexplained purpose when the reaon for his appointment to the Kingsguard was to act as Margaery's protector?If they wanted to provoke Cersei why were there no troops on hand when she struck agasint Margaery? Mace was beseiging Storms End and Randall Tarly at Maidenpool. It doesn't make sense to allow Margaery to be put at such risk and for her reputation to be so thoroughly tarnished - Pycelle said infront of the entire court that he made moon tea for her on many occasions. This is treason and she could die.I just don't see it. Mace wanted his daughter to be a queen and with the marriage to Joffrey and now Tommen he has achieved that. His grandchildren will be kings or queens of the Seven Kingdoms. To risk all this there has to be something to gain and they have advanced their power considerably as it is without playing such high risk games - and unnecessary games as well.Not every House has to be as ruthless as the Boltons, the Freys or the Lannisters (we know the Starks, Tullys and Arryns are not, nor do the Martells appear to be). The only evidence agaisnt the Tyrells is The Queen of Thorns poisoning Joffrey and this could have been triggered by Sansa's confirmation of Joffrey's character, not plotted by the whole family from the moment LF turned up in Bitterbridge. I can't see Margaery doing this myself, this looks like Olenna Tyrell to me. She is the brains or the evil genius if you prefer, the one pulling the strings - note the scene in ASOS when Tywin tells Tyrion that Mace was well disposed to a match between Cersei and Wyllas until the Queen of Thorns turned him against it. I also think it likely she acted alone - the fewer who know a secret, the fewer can give it away - and you wouldn't want someone remembering after the wedding that all the Tyrells were uptight instead of happy on the big day for their House. You would have to think Margaery one evil cold-hearted bitch to be smiling and laughing throughout her wedding while all the time planning how to murder her husband! This is a sixteen year-old girl who has just become queen of the Seven Kingdoms not a Faceless Man and people will be watching her during the wedding feast. Now her doddering old grandmother, always barking at people and shuffling around, no one is going to pay her too much attention....I don't believe in a Grand Tyrell Conspiracy either. Too much risk (the disgrace and/or execution of Margaery) for too little reward (they're already at the top).There is something suspicious about Loras' death. To paraphrase Mark Twain, the rumors of his demise have been greatly exaggerated. I'm not sure how or why, though. We cannot trust anything we don't read about ourselves. Davos' head on a spike in White Harbor says so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimeisnotazombie Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 “Claw Isle was but lightly garrisoned, its castle reputedly stuffed with Myrish carpets, Volantene glass, gold and silver plate, jeweled cups, magnificent hawks, an axe of Valyrian steel, a horn that could summon monsters from the deep, chests of rubies, and more wines than a man could drink in a hundred years.”A Storm of Swords - page 493 (paperback) Claw Isle isn't very far from Dragonstone. Isn't the master of Ships or whatever, (somthing Waters is the name) missing with some big warships. The master of ships lends Loras his support for all the gold and gems on Claw Isle. Loras will probably be on his way to fuck Euron Greyjoy up. I for one don't think Euron would last 15 seconds vs Loras without magic, and i don't think Euron has any real magic on his side. So lets say Loras goes to Claw Isle finds the Kraken horn and uses it to take out Euron before he reaches the Reach and Highgarden. Another possibility is Loras takes the Valyrian steel axe, and fights with that, which would be kind of badass, we haven't seen many axes let alone a Valyrian steel one. This i say would be better for a showdown with Vic rather then Euron. It would be fitting to defeat a Kraken with a Kraken horn though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 “Claw Isle was but lightly garrisoned, its castle reputedly stuffed with Myrish carpets, Volantene glass, gold and silver plate, jeweled cups, magnificent hawks, an axe of Valyrian steel, a horn that could summon monsters from the deep, chests of rubies, and more wines than a man could drink in a hundred years.”A Storm of Swords - page 493 (paperback) Claw Isle isn't very far from Dragonstone. Isn't the master of Ships or whatever, (somthing Waters is the name) missing with some big warships. The master of ships lends Loras his support for all the gold and gems on Claw Isle. Loras will probably be on his way to fuck Euron Greyjoy up. I for one don't think Euron would last 15 seconds vs Loras without magic, and i don't think Euron has any real magic on his side. So lets say Loras goes to Claw Isle finds the Kraken horn and uses it to take out Euron before he reaches the Reach and Highgarden. Another possibility is Loras takes the Valyrian steel axe, and fights with that, which would be kind of badass, we haven't seen many axes let alone a Valyrian steel one. This i say would be better for a showdown with Vic rather then Euron. It would be fitting to defeat a Kraken with a Kraken horn though.Why would the Master of Ships and Loras conceal this from Cersei? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaimeisnotazombie Posted December 31, 2013 Share Posted December 31, 2013 Why would the Master of Ships and Loras conceal this from Cersei? Loras will conceal anything he can from cersei, if she asked what does this flower smell like he would probably lie, they are not friends, more like enemies. Loras is in full support of his own family not the Lannisters. Waters is missing, has ships, and no actually loyalty to Cersei. If Loras came to him with a good enough offer, the ole master of ships is going to take it. Also at this time Cersei wasn't lord Regent, Kevin Lannister was. Don't have to tell Cersei shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 Waters is pirating in the stepstones and has set up his base on torturors deep. He does not have armored knights he has cutthroats and thieves, I doubt they would storm a castle lightly defended or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JungWheats Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 No...Aurane Waters is not the Lord of the Waters; thats a mislead. I think it much more likely that someone like Sallador Sahn has set himself up as the Pirate King, there, allowing the reveal of Water's true loyalty a big payoff. Plus Sallador is a fan-favorite and this keeps him in the story a bit longer. Its totally in Sallador's character to pick a name like Lord of the Waters; Westerosi bastards don't do this. They, mostly, abandon their bastard names at the first opportunity. I think its much more likely that Aurane Waters will lead a last-minute rescue in Oldtown against Euron since he's been sleeping with Loras since his appointment to the small council (both of them are wide awake during a late-night meeting while all the others have to be woken). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aryagonnakill#2 Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 No...Aurane Waters is not the Lord of the Waters; thats a mislead. I think it much more likely that someone like Sallador Sahn has set himself up as the Pirate King, there, allowing the reveal of Water's true loyalty a big payoff. Plus Sallador is a fan-favorite and this keeps him in the story a bit longer. Its totally in Sallador's character to pick a name like Lord of the Waters; Westerosi bastards don't do this. They, mostly, abandon their bastard names at the first opportunity. I think its much more likely that Aurane Waters will lead a last-minute rescue in Oldtown against Euron since he's been sleeping with Loras since his appointment to the small council (both of them are wide awake during a late-night meeting while all the others have to be woken). So where did Saladar get massive double decker warships? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtomixIGN Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 The Bastard of Driftmark and the Knight of Flowers may be having an affair. But more than likely not. And its less likely they are conspiring with one another in any cool way when it comes to the Siege of Dragonstone and faking Loras' demise. Aurane and Sallador Saan getting together on the Stepstones is possible. Sallador cant be happy to have been usurped as the Pirate King but he's a realist and he DOES want to sack Kings Landing. I like the notion of the Knight of Flowers being deformed but still a badass under his pretty armor tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anarchosaurus Rex Posted January 1, 2014 Share Posted January 1, 2014 After reading all the theories here, I've decided that I have no idea what happened to Loras or what he's doing. I don't trust a death we didn't see, but all of the explanations are equally unbelievable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 in the case of Aeron, we have little clue as to why he still figures in the story. something's gonna crash into the Iron Islands and we'll have a religious view on it. I hope to see Cersai dead by the hands of Sansa Please, leave me one POV character who is no murderer. They're two different trials that I assume would be fought against a knight representing the Faith. I had imagined a Sandor of the Faith to volunteer for epic showdown. Defeating the mountain at jousting and actually killing a dead man are two different things. Hound came to Loras rescue. So that parallel computes in the storyline. Hmm. Lots of reshots of that scene in my mind happening right now. Loras coming to rescue Sandor of the Faith and spoiling all the fun for everyone involved. Thanks! Reading this thread I learned a lot of brilliant ideas about the Dragonstone plot, what still feel left in the dark about Loras. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think Loras is not grievously wounded, and the story about his injuries was put about by the Tyrells to hide the fact Loras had essentially decimated a sizeable force of Lannister forces. In one of Jamie's feast chapters, we hear of 2,000 Lannister soldiers waiting for Lord Redwyne's fleet to ferry them to Dragonstone. I believe Loras ordered a charge against the castle that destroyed a huge chunk of this force, reducing Lannister power. The story about how he was wounded in the process makes Cersei and the rest overlook the loss of Lannister men that accompanied this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Weirgaryen Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 I think Loras is not grievously wounded, and the story about his injuries was put about by the Tyrells to hide the fact Loras had essentially decimated a sizeable force of Lannister forces. In one of Jamie's feast chapters, we hear of 2,000 Lannister soldiers waiting for Lord Redwyne's fleet to ferry them to Dragonstone. I believe Loras ordered a charge against the castle that destroyed a huge chunk of this force, reducing Lannister power. The story about how he was wounded in the process makes Cersei and the rest overlook the loss of Lannister men that accompanied this interesting ... shrewd!Did you find clues or leads in the books suggesting this course (besides what's mentioned in the quote above)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Crow's Third Eye Posted January 2, 2014 Share Posted January 2, 2014 Not really any other clues other than the line in Jamie's POV that revealed it was Lannister men going to Dragonstone. But when you consider how Cersei sent Mace away to invest Storm's End, and Garlan took the other Reach forces away to Brightwater Keep, it seems likely that the Tyrells (very few of which appear stupid) would want to counter this by getting some Lannister forces out of the way. I dont claim this as fact though, I know its a weak idea based on flimsy evidence but I have a gut feeling... I might try and work on it some more, see what evidence I can find Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRealRedRonnet Posted February 15, 2014 Share Posted February 15, 2014 Perhaps the new High Septon is our latest entrant into the Game of Thrones... I agree. I think since the Faith Millitant was restored, it has lead towards the High Septon seizing the throne.... At least for a little while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blind Beth the Cat Lady Posted February 16, 2014 Share Posted February 16, 2014 Great question! :idea:I have since refined my ideas on this topic and decided what happened was that there was a negotiated surrender of Dragonstone. Redwyne had 2000 troops besieging Dragonstone. When Aurane tells Cersei of the battle he says that 1000 men were lost. I think what happened was that the terms of surrender was that Stannis' men be allowed to continue mining the obsidian and when the ships arrived they would be allowed to load the obsidian onto the ships. They maybe even negotiated that Stannis' remaining men were allowed to leave with the ships. Then a garrison of 1000 of Redwyne's men was left at Dragonstone and the 1000 "lost" men returned with Loras and Redwyne to fight the ironborn. If such a surrender had been negotiated, then the taking of Dragonstone really wasn't faked, it just didn't happen the way Aurane described it.I agree he could have went east to Dany. The only reason I like this better is because it is the only way I can think of that gets obsidian to the wall. Salladhor Saan's ships were supposed to be going to pick up the obsidian, but we are told that because of the Autumn storms at sea Salladhor Saan had lost a lot of ships and decided to abandon Stannis' cause. Therefore, no ships were coming for the obsidian. This makes a lot of sense. To those arguing that Loras wouldn't abandon Margery in her hour of need, I would say that according to my understanding of the timeline Margery wasn't in any particular need when Loras left for Dragonstone and then (theoretically) to fight the Ironborn. If he's even aware of her situation now, he would already be committed to the battle and not able to get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brahood Witout Manners Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I have no idea why anyone thinks Loras and unGregor/Strong will face off in Cersie's trials. The Faith accused her, not the king. They are both Kingsguard. The thought that Loras would pose as a "servant of the faith" makes no sense either. There are easier ways to kill Cersie, or have her killed, especially if the Tyrell's are in bed with the faith. I generally enjoy the theories but these are the most far fetched and assumption based (so, nothing based) I've seen. Not trying to be a troll here but I don't buy a single theory on the subject of Ser Loras...so far. I don't have one myself either, not enough reliable info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaysodope Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Loras would lose to the mountain in a sword fight. Loras admits to not being a good swordfighter to sansa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talking Hodor Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 Loras' injuries at Dragonstone were worse than everyone imagined, so they had to amputate his entire body. In fact, his head was sewn onto Gregor Clegane's corpse in order to keep it alive. Now that Cersei is going to name Robert Strong as her champion, and the faith is going to name Loras, Robert Strong will have to fight a trial by combat...against himself. It'll be epic, just like Jim Carey in Me, Myself, and Irene. The results will be inconclusive, though, so Cersei will get off on a technicality. Nonetheless, faceless Arya, wearing the face of Syrio Forel, will warg into Tommen's kitties and maul Cersei to death in her sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MegaAIP Posted February 17, 2014 Share Posted February 17, 2014 I am going to come out of left field here and say that Loras is badly bured and close to death and will not play any roll other then pissing off they tyrells Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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