What about Loras?

[Teh Queen's Hand]

One problem I have with this is why would Ser Loras fight UnGregor with swords when his brother is the better swordsmen? Assuming margaery needs a knight of the kingsgaurd to champion her in combat then loras makes some sense, but margaery isnt in any real danger from her trial as the tyrells have 30k men in the city. If a tyrell is going to fight ungregor it would be loras's brother who wore renly's armor. Perhaps that same brother wore Loras's armor when he took dragonstone?

If Loras could not fit into Renly's armor then it stands to reason that Garlan would not be able to fit into Loras's. Also all reports are that Garlan is the Reach taking the Florent's lands as his own and leading the defense against the Ironborn.

[Valmorfëa]

I am more interested in how he will react to finding out that he was not admired so much for his jousting but for his looks.

Perhaps he was known for both ;) though only Renly would know...

This is a really interesting thread, it didn't cross my mind at all to think twice about Loras. And I do think he probably went off to the Reaches and I hope Aurane took some obsidian North, however he may also have gone east to Dany... it depends on what information he was privy to (that we clearly don't know about).

I am wondering though how the taking of Dragonstone could have been faked, wouldn't the sailors talk, once Aurane came back to KL? Or maybe they were ordered to stay off the docks and he just came in on a little boat with two trusted men, gave the news and jetted off north.

It's not really clear if any KLers ever go near Dragonstone...

[bent branch]

Perhaps he was known for both ;) though only Renly would know...

This is a really interesting thread, it didn't cross my mind at all to think twice about Loras. And I do think he probably went off to the Reaches and I hope Aurane took some obsidian North, however he may also have gone east to Dany... it depends on what information he was privy to (that we clearly don't know about).

I am wondering though how the taking of Dragonstone could have been faked, wouldn't the sailors talk, once Aurane came back to KL? Or maybe they were ordered to stay off the docks and he just came in on a little boat with two trusted men, gave the news and jetted off north.

It's not really clear if any KLers ever go near Dragonstone...

Great question! :idea:

I have since refined my ideas on this topic and decided what happened was that there was a negotiated surrender of Dragonstone. Redwyne had 2000 troops besieging Dragonstone. When Aurane tells Cersei of the battle he says that 1000 men were lost. I think what happened was that the terms of surrender was that Stannis' men be allowed to continue mining the obsidian and when the ships arrived they would be allowed to load the obsidian onto the ships. They maybe even negotiated that Stannis' remaining men were allowed to leave with the ships. Then a garrison of 1000 of Redwyne's men was left at Dragonstone and the 1000 "lost" men returned with Loras and Redwyne to fight the ironborn. If such a surrender had been negotiated, then the taking of Dragonstone really wasn't faked, it just didn't happen the way Aurane described it.

I agree he could have went east to Dany. The only reason I like this better is because it is the only way I can think of that gets obsidian to the wall. Salladhor Saan's ships were supposed to be going to pick up the obsidian, but we are told that because of the Autumn storms at sea Salladhor Saan had lost a lot of ships and decided to abandon Stannis' cause. Therefore, no ships were coming for the obsidian.

[jlk7e]

As far as I am concerned, Aurane Waters was a bastard of Lord Velaryon. And the House of Velaryon was one of the noble houses most devoted to Stannis. It is probable that Aurane secretly supported Stannis.

What bothers me is that Aurane supposely lost 1000 best soldiers before he deserted. It could mean that someone took them being in a rush and having no time to gather forces. It might be Loras, in fact. But the question is why he was in a hurry.

I wouldn't say the Velaryons are "devoted" to Stannis. We don't get much about Lord Velaryon, but the only insight we get into his character is from Davos's first chapter in A Clash of Kings. In that chapter, while the idols are burning, Davos notes that Velaryon is watching Stannis rather than watching the fire, and that Davos wishes he knew what he is thinking - presumably Davos suspects that Velaryon has some of the same misgivings that he does. And that's it - we don't see Velaryon in Davos II, Cressen only notes that he is handsome, and Davos III just talks sabout what his ship is doing at the Blackwater. We don't really have any reason to think that Velaryon was any more loyal to Stannis than Celtigar, who bends the knee when he is captured.

If anything, it seems more likely that the Velaryons are secret Targaryen loyalists than that they are devoted followers of Stannis.

[Dornish Bannerman]

The Velaryons were an offspring from the Targaryen's if I recall correct. Like the Starks and the Karstarks. They wed between, when there was no one to have incest with, you know, and no Martells could marry.

[jlk7e]

The Velaryons were not offspring of the Targaryens - that's the Baratheons. The Velaryons are just another family of Valyrian descent.

[Xander Baratheon]

A question I have is why do people think Loras and UnGregor will fight in a trial by combat? They're both members of the kingsguard and even if Margaery elects to change her fate to be determined by a trial by combat it's not like she will be in direct competition with Cersei. They're two different trials that I assume would be fought against a knight representing the Faith. Cersei technically could choose Ser Loras (obviously she wouldn't) to represent her in her own trial.

[Burt Clegane]

Loras could have faked his death when he heard that there was a boat of Dragonglass going up to Stannis on the wall. A chance for revenge?

[scurvy]

Loras as tbe Valanqhor is an interesting idea and it led me to another younger brother, Aegon. Supposedly he is the youngest of Rhaegars children with Elia but I dont see him being mentioned in the conversation unless Ive missed it.

And Arya was called Little Sis by Jon Snow and Maester Aemon said that in Old Valaryan there was no male/female to words like Prince and perhaps the same is true of sibling. Little sibling is very likely Little Sis in my mind.

[Ser Bruce]

I like this idea. Maybe Margaery will demand a trial by combat as well, and have Loras make a shock return to be her champion. If this happened, it would be a neat little literary trick by GRRM - he has Jon Connington explain in-universe that people forget about a character sent offstage with little fanfare, and then pulls the same thing on his own audience with Loras coming back. (And then killing him off immediately, because a) trials by combat rarely go well, B) Loras doesn't have much use to the plot afterwards, and c) that's the sort of thing GRRM would do.)

I wasn't big on the whole Loras is fine, and alive and pirating/sleeping with Aurane Waters b/c the QoT is really Bran warging all along, looking to get Stark revenge.....

BUT....

I love this explanation and am thoroughly convinced that Loras is returning to die in the same fashion Oberyn died in. Well Done!

[Ser Bruce]

Loras as tbe Valanqhor is an interesting idea and it led me to another younger brother, Aegon. Supposedly he is the youngest of Rhaegars children with Elia but I dont see him being mentioned in the conversation unless Ive missed it.

Its because he's the mummer's dragon, and not the real Aegon.

[aryagonnakill]

The Velaryons were an offspring from the Targaryen's if I recall correct. Like the Starks and the Karstarks. They wed between, when there was no one to have incest with, you know, and no Martells could marry.

The Velaryons were not offspring of the Targaryens - that's the Baratheons. The Velaryons are just another family of Valyrian descent.

I believe the Velaryons were stewards for the Targaryens.

[Maestor Tarly]

We know Loras volunteered to take Dragonstone ONLY because he wanted to speed up the process so he could then use the fleet to fight the Greyjoys. Therefore I think it is likely that he showed up to Dragonstone where Aurane Waters had everything under control, made a deal with him so he could take off with the 1000 soldiers that were 'lost' in the battle.

I am of the opinion that Aurane and Stannis have to be on the same side due the fact that only Cersei was told that Dragonstone was taken

[Lord Fred of Mole's Town]

Although having a healthy Loras suddenly return from DS to champion his sister in a trial by combat is plausible, I doubt he is in any political or emotional tryst with Aurane. Although a bit young, I believe Aurane is working with Varys, Connington and fAegon/Blackfyre, preparing for the third Blackfyre Rebellion. ;-)

On a related note, I always wanted to see Loras have a bitter rematch with Brienne, with dire consequences for one of them.

[Petyr Patter]

Oh I think he'll be back. His only flaw was he was to vain. Now that he probably doesn't have the good looks he once had, there's a good chance of a hero in the making. I mean come on the Tyrells need at least one hero by the end of the series.

Actually, he also murdered Robar Royce and Emmon Cuy. Loras claimed he had probable cause because they failed to protect Renly, but that is really stretching it. Frankly, for this act alone, Loras deserves the hot oil bath.

Still, I'm willing to accept Loras faking his injuries. Not as part of the Grand Tyrell conspiracy, which I think is bunk, but to give him the freedom to rush to defend the Reach. It is also worth pointing out that Redwyne would have been desperate to find a quick way to move his fleet to defend the Arbor. They would come together to offer Rolland Storm incredibly generous terms to surrender, even ships to go join Stannis in the North. Which Rolland would have had to consider seriously, as it was a chance to get some Dragonglass to the Wall.

Still, that leaves the question of the 1,000 dead Lannister troops. That is a tough to lie to keep hidden in the longterm, so who knows.

[The Human Abstract]

Loras is the hooded man in Winterfell.

*snicker*

[Old Rusty Coin]

Anyone want to quote odds on Un-Loras vs Un-Gregor?

[siknes]

Defeating the mountain at jousting and actually killing a dead man are two different things. Hound came to Loras rescue. So that parallel computes in the storyline.

[Steve Stark]

EDIT: in reference to Old Rusty Coins response- my quote isn't working at the moment.

That's what I originally came up with, but how many UnAnythings can there be in George's story? UnCat was enough for me, honestly.

Gregor is more of an abomination to me, than he is an "UnGregor". You have to die to be an UnSomeone, and he was just manipulated/mutilated and transformed...PRIOR to his death.

[Tini]

EDIT: in reference to Old Rusty Coins response- my quote isn't working at the moment.

That's what I originally came up with, but how many UnAnythings can there be in George's story? UnCat was enough for me, honestly.

Gregor is more of an abomination to me, than he is an "UnGregor". You have to die to be an UnSomeone, and he was just manipulated/mutilated and transformed...PRIOR to his death.

Gregor was dying - and he might actually have died. There might be more undead people around than we currently know.

I don't think Loras was faking anything on Dragonstone. Loras is a not a schemer, not a strategist. He is a hothead. His family intended him to be Margaery's protector - but the Dragonstone assignment obviously attracted him more. Loras won't be defending the Reach - that will be up to his crippled brother Willas - Willas, who isn't even a knight. Loras will go to KL, recovering under Margaery's care. He won't fight in a trial by combat, either - not for Margaery. Margaery won't risk her injured brother like that. She isn't Cersei who asked Jaime to champion her despite the fact that Jaime had lost his sword hand.

If anything happens to Margaery, I can see Loras taking vengeance just as he did for Renly. I can even see an injured Loras desperately (and hopelessly) defending Margaery against Aegon's invading forces. And now that I think of it, he could even end up fighting Ser Robert Strong. Gregor Clegane burned his brother Sandor. If Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane, Robert/Gregor might react strongly (read: violently) to seeing someone as burned as Sandor, giving away his real identity. That way Qyburn might lose control of his creature, and Cersei her champion.