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teemo

[Book Spoilers] Joffrey and the whores

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someone explain to me what is going on in the minds of people who want to see Sansa roughed up even more. Because I honestly don't understand it.

I don't "want" to see Sansa roughed up even more. Although she's not my favorite character, she certainly doesn't do anything to warrant the treatment Joffrey and Cersei give her. But I think that extending the scene of her beating in the throne room would have done just as much for Joffrey and Sansa's characters, as well as possibly adding a little bit for The Hound, and the member of the Kingsguard who carried it out (was it Blount? Or Trant?). I don't think making Joffrey into a sexual sadist is at all necessary to our hating him and seeing him as a power-drunk, immature, psychopath who everyone wants dead or banished.

The one necessary point to that scene (Joffrey getting back at Tyrion for showing him up) could have been accomplished in any number of other ways. Or at least less graphically.

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My problem with it, as I said in the other thread, is that it completely knocks the sails out of Sansa's scene right before it. The whores are all that people are going to be talking about, and that's a problem. Sansa's a main character and her beating in front of the whole court is hugely significant, as Tyrion points out. Yet it's utterly undercut.

I don't mind that Sansa's beating was reduced in the show. Honestly, I'm not sure if I could have taken much more. It was bad enough to see the two blows, and Tyrion's intervention was timely and that whole scene was well crafted. Why they followed it up with the prostitutes is... I don't know.

Oh yes, I understand you. But I think two more blows would make the scene must stronger. In the book, she was quite hurt afterwards and could barely walk. Oh well, can't wait to see more of Sansa. She and Arya are by far my favourite characters. I just can't wait to see the remaining Starks reunite someday.

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1) Yes, we all know that Joffrey is a wicked and mean brat, but we have not seen quite this level of sadism. This scene was not gratuitous nor needless. The writers chose not to show the intensity of Sansa's beating.

Which is immensely stupid. Sansa is supposed to be a major character but we see the goddamn whores more than we see her on screen. It undercuts Sansa's character development.

2) Joffrey then decides to exploit the gift of the whores (1) to satisfy his own sadistic desires and (2) to teach Tyrion a lesson. Tyrion humiliated Joffrey. Joffrey humiliates--and threatens--Tyrion, though in a less public way. Joffrey will be the king who does whatever he wants to do; he will exercise power unrestrained by conscience, justice, and prudence.
There's plenty of material in ASoS where Joffrey acts like an evil shithead towards Tyrion and does all that. There was no need for that scene.

3) The beating of the whores also brings Littlefinger into the picture. These are his property. We already know how he values his investments. The king has ruined, perhaps permanently, one of his investments, thereby implicitly threatening his wealth and power. The writers are providing motivation for Littlefinger's eventual collaboration (orchestration?) in the murder of Joffrey. This is a different LF than we find in the books, but no use complaining about this any longer.
ROFL what? We already had a scene that showed how indifferent Littlefinger is about his whores. I doubt they'll show Littlefinger be upset about what happened to his whores. In fact I suspect they won't even show Littlefinger reacting to this at all.

None or little of this may be in the books, but I am convinced that the excessive number of prostitute scenes are not gratuitous sex scenes. They have a narrative purpose.

One's allowedh his dreams, I guess. It's obvious at this point that this is just the result of D&D's bad fanfiction though.

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Dragon of Valyria- You are right. The biggest problem with the whore scene was that it took away from Sansa. It probably would have also felt like they hurt her enough if there was nothing to compare it too.

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Oh... I love how people complain that the "Sansa scene was cut too short"... And then complain that we saw too much of the whores getting abused later.

The Sansa abuse scene went much further in the book. They shot as much as they could - and then added the whore scene to illustrate the rest of Joffrey's character. It makes sense.

And to all saying "HBO has gone too far". Let me ask you this. What book series have you read? Clearly not the same one as I have. Where can I find this censored edition that everyone seems to own?

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Then Joffrey takes off his belt, and we think- there, he's human after all, just an asshole. I don't know about you, but I didn't expect he was taking off his belt to use it as a weapon.

Did you really expect even HBO to show a bare-butted Jackie Gleason doing a couple of whores? Sure, he’s 18 now and all, but I don’t know that that would have gone over very well. I guess they could have shown him with some sort of unexplained scarring on his backside to help explain his wickedness.

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This scene reminded me of that awfulness that Ramsay forced on Theon and Jeyne. Torture porn is in the books; and I think this scene fits right in with Martin's style :ack: . The odd things is, I don't think they can develop Ramsay's character in quite the same way since they're already going down that road with Joff. I would think it would be repetitive.

They clearly chose to give Sansa some agency. She made an impression by walking out of there with her head held high. If Tyrion is impressed, the audience should be as well. They aren't going to make her the sole vehicle for Joff's sadism (speaking of, I don't think Joff is a sexual sadist, maybe he's just a sadist. The whole thing appeared to be non-sexual for him).

People talking about the cruel beating of Sansa vs. the cruel beating of prostitutes - I really don't see the problem, either way, the talk isn't about the victims. It's about Joff himself.

I have a different critique of that scene; I hated the gag-inducing chivalry Tyrion displayed. If he was really chivalrous he wouldn't have sent the prostitute who he "tipped for her trouble" in Ep 3 to his disturbed nephew. So much for a "tip." So much for an "education." :dunno:

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Let me ask you this. What book series have you read? Clearly not the same one as I have.

Why do people keep saying this awful thing? It’s incredibly demeaning, a personal ad hominem insult that has no business here. I even seem to recall there was some moderator warning about it in another thread. Why must people inevitably descend into the same petty name-calling and insults?

Oh right, because this is the Internet. Great excuse, that.

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I'm very very surprised that people are getting worked up about this. Can someone please explain to me how Joffrey getting one whore to hit another one is any worse than having Sansa beaten at regular intervals, or intending to strip her naked before the royal court? Or forcing her to look upon the head of her dead father?

Perhaps the scene was a little long, but this was tempered for me by the fantastic acting of Jack Gleeson. It's just a shame we shall never have a scene with him, Alfie Allen and Tyrion all in the same room.

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I have no objection to the scene itself. Martin's world is probably even more viscious. My problem is that it didn't serve the story. It was just... there... and almost needleesly using Ros.

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yeah, it kind of felt to me that they could not do to Sansa what the book does due to the actress being so young and therefore needed some whores to bring that point across.

And I did not hate the scene I do think it shows some brilliant acting. Joffrey is, in the books as well, a cruel and twisted man (or boy). He is older in the series, so I do understand that his fetish is probably even more developed than in the books, or he is more so able to live out all of the evil inside.

However I'd just 'rather' have seen more Sansa beating. And that came out wrong...

Sansa (next to Theon) just is kind of my favorite Storyline in ACoK and I feel like it is being barely mentioned. I was really looking forward to seeing the melon-morning-star scene and it kind of felt that the whores scene took it from me. Although, as I said before, you probably can't film such a scene with a 16 years old actress

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The scene itself was reasonably well acted, plausable that Joffrey would do such a thing, and plausable that Tyrion would arrange it. The problem is that including Tyrion's discussion with Bronn and all the set up it was a extremely long scene in an adapatation of a book that already is starved for time and has to cut so many lines of dialogue and action because of that lack of time. If there were 20 episodes this season, the scene wouldn't bother me, but with only 10, and so many other story lines feeling like cliff note versions, I fail to see why THIS scene was more important to show than scenes that were cut from the source material. The time could have been spent on Renly's peach and Stannis brandishing Light Bringer for the first time. Or Stannis and Davos fully explaining the backstory of the Onion Knight so that the rotten onion comment later had more connection. Or even allowed for Arya to escape Ser Amory at the end of last episode and get recaptured by the mountain's men this episode. There are so many scenes that have to be cut or drastically reduced due to time, that this scene should have been cut not because it was "bad" per se, or even untrue to the characters, but because there are more important and interesting scenes that could have been included instead. It was extremely wasteful screen time wise in relation to what it did to further the story along.

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Why do people keep saying this awful thing? It’s incredibly demeaning, a personal ad hominem insult that has no business here. I even seem to recall there was some moderator warning about it in another thread. Why must people inevitably descend into the same petty name-calling and insults?

Oh right, because this is the Internet. Great excuse, that.

People keep saying it because there is a systemic pattern on this forum (and ASOIAF fandom in general) of people not recalling how sexual, sadist, and violent (often all three at once) the books can be. And these people are quite insistent - Even when quoted with evidence.

So what would you prefer to be called instead, if you take umbrage at this?

If you claim something that does not match the evidence, you will be called on it. Even on the internet.

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I understand if the directors did not want to go too far with Sansa seeing how Sophie is only 16. I also do not feel Joffrey was out of character with the following scene, but wasn't convinced it was necessary. I know what is in the books though, so hard to know what a non-reader needs to be shown in order to get the same effect.

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TV/Film and books are two very different media. Maybe I'm unique, but I find it much less graphic to read about these things than to see them. I don't know what kind of reader or viewer that makes me, it just is.

My problem with the scene is that it was needlessly graphic. The story would have been better served if Sansa had received more abuse (not necessarily being stripped nude) at Joffrey's behest and the whore scene left out entirely. Joffrey could have taken out his displeasure over Tyrion's interference in one of any number of ways.

The book had as many pages as GRRM wanted to tell his story. He could have made them even longer if he wanted. The TV show has a very limited window to tell the story and develop characters. This scene was a waste of time, in my opinion.

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I'm sorry, but I didn't see this scene as sexual deviance. Joffrey clearly hates Tyrion's gift and wants to show his uncle that he holds more power than him. I did not feel that Joffrey was enjoying the beating in a sexual way; he simply wanted to humiliate the prostitutes and his uncle. That's the sole reason for this scene, not to make you hate him (because the audience certainly does already). I think it's also important to note that we never actually see any of the beatings; it takes place in our imaginations from the sounds we hear.

That being said, the scene was at the line, if not over it, in its depiction of violence. I do think a reaction towards Tyrion was necessary (especially since he's much older in the show than in the book), but could they have shown a different scene to get the same point across? Yes.

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TV/Film and books are two very different media. Maybe I'm unique, but I find it much less graphic to read about these things than to see them. I don't know what kind of reader or viewer that makes me, it just is.

My problem with the scene is that it was needlessly graphic. The story would have been better served if Sansa had received more abuse (not necessarily being stripped nude) at Joffrey's behest and the whore scene left out entirely. Joffrey could have taken out his displeasure over Tyrion's interference in one of any number of ways.

The book had as many pages as GRRM wanted to tell his story. He could have made them even longer if he wanted. The TV show has a very limited window to tell the story and develop characters. This scene was a waste of time, in my opinion.

Why was it needlessly graphic I wonder?

To me this was a good scene because it made me feel extremely uncomfortable with what was going on and that was the point of the scene and also the reason why it needed to be this graphic.

I don't think any scene before this one has made me really feel this much revulsion towards TV Joffrey. So I felt this scene was perfect I don't mind being made uncomfortable by the things i watch.

And seeing the producers are looking at this as a season by season project instead of the bigger picture we see as book readers they need to set up Joffrey as this larger then life psycho so his dead will be extremely satisfying for the viewers.

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Oh yes, I understand you. But I think two more blows would make the scene must stronger. In the book, she was quite hurt afterwards and could barely walk. Oh well, can't wait to see more of Sansa. She and Arya are by far my favourite characters. I just can't wait to see the remaining Starks reunite someday.

I think it would have been perfectly strong enough (it was quite a well done scene) if it weren't immediately followed up by something that most members of the audience feel like is far worse of an abuse of power. I don't really have a problem with how vile Joffrey's prostitute scene was, I have a problem with it existing at all.

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And seeing the producers are looking at this as a season by season project instead of the bigger picture we see as book readers they need to set up Joffrey as this larger then life psycho so his dead will be extremely satisfying for the viewers.

Do they really NEED to though? Most viewers already hate Joffrey and he has plenty of scenes directly from the book that illustrate what type of person he is between now and his death. More importantly do they NEED to show this scene over showing Stannis brandish Light Bringer and Renly with his peach? Or Davos and Stannis explaining exactly how Davos became the Onion Knight? Or Arya wandering with her pack of Gendry, Hot Pie and Lommy after escaping Ser Amory, only to get caught by the Mountain's men? There are so many scenes from the book that have to be cut or drastically reduced due to time, so it is pretty difficult for me to accept that this scene was "needed" when so many better scenes have to be cut or turned into cliff note versions of the original.

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