House Army numbers?

[Erkan12]

Well, the Tyrells have definite proof in the books for 70,000 minimum, maximum unspecified. And Jaime had only 15,000, not 30,000. Maybe you have been irritated by the show?.

Tyrells at 30,000? Thats way too little. At least 70,000.

Then why Tyrells bow their heads to Baratheons and then again Lannisters ? it doesn't make sense.

[Juan_Snow]

Then why Tyrells bow their heads to Baratheons and then again Lannisters ? it doesn't make sense.

Because they were on the losing side during Robert's Rebellion. Superior numbers don't equal an automatic victory.

[Damar]

Then why Tyrells bow their heads to Baratheons and then again Lannisters ? it doesn't make sense.

Because they don't have any legitimacy to the Throne, with the Baratheons having at least one nearby Targaryen blood relative, making a military victory rather pointless for the Tyrells unless they decide to fight and conquer all of Westeros.

[King Aemon I]

For the love of god people, who says Arryns can raise 50k.. Or Tully 65k.. Where is the proof? On what base you say it? And what you say it, doesn't it sound ridiculous to you too?

you keep mixing show data with book data.. Or sometimes you look AWOIAF which proved itself mistaken time to time.. If Arryns could raise 50k, do you think Tywin would ride to Ruby Ford.. He didn't know Arryns were staying in Vale, he marched there to prevent a disaster like Stark army and Arryn army uniting, which would make 40-45k together I believe.. If Arryns had 50k they could march out from Bloody Gate, Tywin would run back.. And who told you 60k Tully.. Stop making comments based on 1 data, "Riverlands is the 2. most populated state in Westeros"

Guess what people, in aCoK, Stannis says to his wife that Florents could raise 2000 men tops.. A major house of Reach.. One of the nine-ten great houses in Reach.. If Starks had 50-60k strength, I believe Robb would take at least 30k to south.. Martin didn't care about the numbers, I'll keep saying, and he changed a lot through out the 5 books.. Even in aDwD, he miscalculated.. Lord Bolton brought 3500 men to North, Bastard joined with 600 Dreadfort men and a minor Dustin-Ryswell host, probably 1500.. And then many Houses brought men to Winterfell, and the Freys from south, yet it stayed in 5000.. Even in one chapter, Martin made things very bad.. Theon's chapter in aCoK, where Ramsay took Winterfell: Rodrik says that he has almost 2.000 men.. afterwards Ramsay says Theon that he asked for 200 men, and Ramsay brought 3 times of it (600) and when Theon asks how he defeat Rodrik he says "Old man had 5 men for each one of you" Bad math is what GRRM has on this subject unfortunately..

[Frey Pie]

For the love of god people, who says Arryns can raise 50k.. Or Tully 65k.. Where is the proof? On what base you say it? And what you say it, doesn't it sound ridiculous to you too?

you keep mixing show data with book data.. Or sometimes you look AWOIAF which proved itself mistaken time to time.. If Arryns could raise 50k, do you think Tywin would ride to Ruby Ford.. He didn't know Arryns were staying in Vale, he marched there to prevent a disaster like Stark army and Arryn army uniting, which would make 40-45k together I believe.. If Arryns had 50k they could march out from Bloody Gate, Tywin would run back.. And who told you 60k Tully.. Stop making comments based on 1 data, "Riverlands is the 2. most populated state in Westeros"

Guess what people, in aCoK, Stannis says to his wife that Florents could raise 2000 men tops.. A major house of Reach.. One of the nine-ten great houses in Reach.. If Starks had 50-60k strength, I believe Robb would take at least 30k to south.. Martin didn't care about the numbers, I'll keep saying, and he changed a lot through out the 5 books.. Even in aDwD, he miscalculated.. Lord Bolton brought 3500 men to North, Bastard joined with 600 Dreadfort men and a minor Dustin-Ryswell host, probably 1500.. And then many Houses brought men to Winterfell, and the Freys from south, yet it stayed in 5000.. Even in one chapter, Martin made things very bad.. Theon's chapter in aCoK, where Ramsay took Winterfell: Rodrik says that he has almost 2.000 men.. afterwards Ramsay says Theon that he asked for 200 men, and Ramsay brought 3 times of it (600) and when Theon asks how he defeat Rodrik he says "Old man had 5 men for each one of you" Bad math is what GRRM has on this subject unfortunately..

Its not just about total availabke numbers in armies, but the ability to project that many men in foreign lands. It takes huge amounts of resources and wealth. The Riverlands may be able to raise 50-60000 but not at one time. Renlys army is ridiculously big, and so totally unbelievable by many standards, but thats what we have. The Riverlands have at various times raised three armies of different times-4000, 16000 and 11000 i believe. So their total is hard to imagine, but its a large populous and wealthy land. If Tywin can raise 60000 (according to Ran) i dont see why the Riverlands shouldnt be close to that. However, i do think the numbers you said above are too high. Arryns i would put somewhere around 40000, while the Riverlands could be around 50-55. Its all specualtion though.

As for your statement on numbers-George often uses unreliable narrators, its a technique as his which has been discussed. Hence the discrepancy in numbers

[Northern light]

For the love of god people, who says Arryns can raise 50k.. Or Tully 65k.. Where is the proof? On what base you say it? And what you say it, doesn't it sound ridiculous to you too?

you keep mixing show data with book data.. Or sometimes you look AWOIAF which proved itself mistaken time to time.. If Arryns could raise 50k, do you think Tywin would ride to Ruby Ford.. He didn't know Arryns were staying in Vale, he marched there to prevent a disaster like Stark army and Arryn army uniting, which would make 40-45k together I believe.. If Arryns had 50k they could march out from Bloody Gate, Tywin would run back.. And who told you 60k Tully.. Stop making comments based on 1 data, "Riverlands is the 2. most populated state in Westeros"

Guess what people, in aCoK, Stannis says to his wife that Florents could raise 2000 men tops.. A major house of Reach.. One of the nine-ten great houses in Reach.. If Starks had 50-60k strength, I believe Robb would take at least 30k to south.. Martin didn't care about the numbers, I'll keep saying, and he changed a lot through out the 5 books.. Even in aDwD, he miscalculated.. Lord Bolton brought 3500 men to North, Bastard joined with 600 Dreadfort men and a minor Dustin-Ryswell host, probably 1500.. And then many Houses brought men to Winterfell, and the Freys from south, yet it stayed in 5000.. Even in one chapter, Martin made things very bad.. Theon's chapter in aCoK, where Ramsay took Winterfell: Rodrik says that he has almost 2.000 men.. afterwards Ramsay says Theon that he asked for 200 men, and Ramsay brought 3 times of it (600) and when Theon asks how he defeat Rodrik he says "Old man had 5 men for each one of you" Bad math is what GRRM has on this subject unfortunately..

You have to remember that we only get POV's, which can be unreliable and obviously one of the POV's is lousy at math....

[Crystal Grower]

no its longships. http://awoiaf.wester....php/Iron_Fleet "The Iron Fleet is the largest grouping of longships from the Iron Islands."

This is wrong and directly contradicted by the text.

From Dance, Victarion explicitly describes what the Iron Fleet is.

[Victarion] had set sail from the Shields with ninety-three, of the hundred that had once made up the Iron Fleet, a fleet belonging not to a single lord but to the Seastone Chair itself, captained and crewed by men from all the islands. Ships smaller than the great war dromonds of the green lands, aye, but thrice the size of any common longship, with deep hulls and savage rams, fit to meet the king’s own fleets in battle.

This establishes that the Iron Fleet is made up of ships three times the size of longships. This is consistent with Feast, Aurane Waters explains:

The common longship is small compared to our galleys, this is true, but the ironmen have larger ships as well. Lord Balon’s Great Kraken and the warships of the Iron Fleet were made for battle, not for raids. They are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength, and most are better crewed and captained.

In Clash, Theon was given a new longship.

[The ship] was not so large as Lord Balon’s own Great Kraken or his uncle Victarion’s Iron Victory, but she looked swift and sweet, even sitting in her wooden cradle on the strand; lean black hull a hundred feet long, a single tall mast, fifty long oars, deck enough for a hundred men...and at the prow, the great iron ram in the shape of an arrowhead.

Theon, being a prince, is given an extremely good longship with 50 oars. The typical longship, however, should be smaller as noted by the quote that the ships of the Iron Fleet "are the equal of our lesser war galleys in speed and strength." The size of of an average size war galley is given in Clash, where Davos sees his and his captain sons' ships:

...where Black Betha, Wraith, and Lady Marya shared mooring space with a half-dozen other galleys of one hundred oars or less.

Since the typical war galley has 100 oars, the typical longship should have fewer than 33 oars.

In summary:

1) The typical war galley as 100 oars.

2) Theon's princely longship has 50 oars.

3) The typical longship has oars in the high 20s, likely no more than 30.

For each ship, the crew composes not just of the rowers (the oars), but also other officers. In the Battle of Blackwater from Davos's point of view, we know his ship has a captain, a captain's squire, an oarmaster, drummers, and pure naval soldiers on top deck to deal with boarding actions. Thus, a war galley can easily have at least 10 to 20 crew members on top of the 100 rowers, and likely more as well.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Thank you, that are some of the textual evidence I was to lazy to search :cool4:

[Erkan12]

Because they were on the losing side during Robert's Rebellion. Superior numbers don't equal an automatic victory.

I understand Robert, but with Joffrey ?

Because they don't have any legitimacy to the Throne, with the Baratheons having at least one nearby Targaryen blood relative, making a military victory rather pointless for the Tyrells unless they decide to fight and conquer all of Westeros.

Starks claim themselfs as king in the north, and Greyjoys king of the iron islands... So they have greater army than everyone, why they are not claim themself as king in the south or another title ? Are they loser like that ? I'm not saying fight for all westeros, at least they should claim their territory, or i'm thinking their bannermen are not loyal like starks bannermen or greyjoys...

[Jon AS]

Starks claim themselfs as king in the north, and Greyjoys king of the iron islands... So they have greater army than everyone, why they are not claim themself as king in the south or another title ? Are they loser like that ? I'm not saying fight for all westeros, at least they should claim their territory, or i'm thinking their bannermen are not loyal like starks bannermen or greyjoys...

All the houses have to maneuver within the political realities of Westeros. This means, amongst other things, maintaining the support of their bannermen. For the Tyrells in particular, this is a tricky situation. Many of the lords of the Reach are extremely powerful, and quite a few, like the Hightowers and Florents, are considered more "royal" than the Tyrells (who are just upjumped stewarts of Highgarden, basically). Mace Tyrell would probably love to declare himself a king, but quite a few of his lords wouldn't follow him in this, leading to conflict within the Reach itself. Whoever later comes out on top in the struggle for the Iron Throne wouldn't have all that much trouble of taking back the Reach and possibly even ousting house Tyrell from Highgarden.

If, on the other hand, the Tyrells marry into an established royal family they can drastically increase their standing and prestige without much internal strife.

[Free Northman]

To me it's about the relative standing of each of the Seven regions.

I think the North is one of the most powerful regions.

I think the Westerlands geograhpy and size (mostly hills and mountains, and relatively small) makes it unlikely that they can support more people than say the Riverlands. In fact, I would put them at the same level as the Vale.

I agree that the economic activity may have led to more people moving there for economic reasons, but then they must be importing food to sustain the larger population. And I still don't think they will have more people than the Riverlands.

I do believe that Tywin is able to muster a larger percentage of his population than the Tullys can, thus bringing them to more or less the same level from a troop perspective. But I cannot believe that there are more people in the small, mountainous West than in the fertile, large Riverlands.

As for the North, I think they have a large population, but spread out over 5 times the territory of a place like the Westerlands. Meaning that even though they have more people, you would never see them.

It's like comparing the Netherlands to Russia. The West has a high population density similar to Holland, but that doesn't mean that their overall population is equal to that of the North. It does mean that you can muster more troops far faster, hence Tywin's 35,000 to Robb's 20,000.

[Crystal Grower]

I forgot to add this to the summary as this was the main point of my post: The ships of the Iron Fleet must have fewer than 100 oars for them to be equivalent to smaller war galleys. I think low to mid 90s is a good guess for the number of rowers.

[Damar]

Starks claim themselfs as king in the north, and Greyjoys king of the iron islands... So they have greater army than everyone, why they are not claim themself as king in the south or another title ? Are they loser like that ? I'm not saying fight for all westeros, at least they should claim their territory, or i'm thinking their bannermen are not loyal like starks bannermen or greyjoys...

"Do you want to be a queen?"

"I don't want to be a queen. I want to be thé queen."

The Tyrells want it all, as shown by Renly wanting to go to war with the North when he captured the Iron Throne, just because he didn't want to rule only half a kingdom.

[SeanF]

The Tyrells don't appear to be as dominant in relation to their Bannermen as some other Great Houses, like the Lannisters or Martells. So, while the Reach can field 70,000 men, the Tyrells aren't going to get that number into the field unless they can persuade their Bannermen to go to war.

My own guess is that by virtue of owning Oldtown, and its environs, the Hightowers are every bit as rich and powerful as the Tyrells, rather like the Dukes of Acquitaine in relation to the Kings of France. Mace Tyrell's uncle takes service with Lord Hightower, as the commander of his guard, and the Tyrells mostly intermarry with their Bannermen, rather than with the other Lords Paramount.

[Free Northman]

The Tyrells are upjumped stewards, nothing more.

The lowest born of the Great Houses.

[King Aerys the Just]

The Tyrells are upjumped stewards, nothing more.

The lowest born of the Great Houses.

I'd say the Greyjoys are even lower, but yes. Those hundred thousand men of the Reach are theirs only on paper.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I'd say the Greyjoys are even lower, but yes. Those hundred thousand men of the Reach are theirs only on paper.

The Greyjoys were kings in the Age of Heros, predating the Andal invasion. They were chosen to rule the Ironborn by a kingsmoot.

The Tyrells were barely noble, not even having lands of their own, and they got promoted to Lord Paragon for surrendering. Not a history to be proud of or inspire loyalty.

[King Aerys the Just]

The Greyjoys were kings in the Age of Heros, predating the Andal invasion. They were chosen to rule the Ironborn by a kingsmoot.

The Tyrells were barely noble, not even having lands of their own, and they got promoted to Lord Paragon for surrendering. Not a history to be proud of or inspire loyalty.

Aren't they just partially descended from those kings? In any case the Greyjoys weren't ruling anything until Aegon Targaryen came along, and I'd say that "King of the Iron Islands" isn't a particulary prestigous title in the first place, given how bleak and poor they are. They don't even seem to be regarded as Lords Paramount by the rest of Westeros. That the Iron Islands can muster as many ships and men as they do really stretches belief. If GRRM had wanted to portray them as a credible threat he should have made them two or three times as large.

[Frey Pie]

"Do you want to be a queen?"

"I don't want to be a queen. I want to be thé queen."

The Tyrells want it all, as shown by Renly wanting to go to war with the North when he captured the Iron Throne, just because he didn't want to rule only half a kingdom.

Quoted from the show i believe. Also Renly was quite happy to leave Robb be King of the North, he says to Cat that he could call himself King

[King Aerys the Just]

.