Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

[hiraeth]

Actually, what if a combination of both Ice and Fire were needed to revive Jon? Both Val and Mel? Hmmm.... . :)

Well, if Jon is half Stark and half Targ, maybe the cooperation between ice and fire magic would have a much better result... Off the topic, but there is also one thing that has been on my mind lately, but I was afraid I would be boring other people with my "other culture" approach... In my country, in all myths and legends, dragons are considered to be positive creatures, our greatest heroes have the blood of the dragon, even our greatest national hero, Milos Obilic, is believed to be fathered by a dragon and a mortal woman. Dragons are believed to be the helpers of human kind, great heroes or fathers of great heroes. Their offspring is capable of deeds beyond human capabilities and courage... I have never read or heard that other people have the same notion about the dragons - nobody except the Serbs reveres dragons in such a way - the Targs are my first encounter with the humans who have the blood of dragons... Oh, and one more thing - the totem animal of the Serbs is a wolf, the totem animal of the Russians is a bear, both found in the North - Jung's collective unconscious archetypes are all over the place, at least for me... No wonder I like the Starks so much... Their physical appearance, as described in the books, even reminds me of the people all around me...

[Ser Q]

When Bran first connected with the weirwood tree didn't he see a women dressed in white (similar to Val's outfit) performing some ceremony in the gods wood at winterfell?

[nothatso]

When Bran first connected with the weirwood tree didn't he see a women dressed in white (similar to Val's outfit) performing some ceremony in the gods wood at winterfell?

It was an old woman with white hair iirc.

However, it might be interesting if Val uses a similar method in attempt to bring Jon back. Combined with Melisandre's fire magic, Jon could be brought back "with fire and blood". Just a thought :P

[TheeMikeHoncho]

Well, if Jon is half Stark and half Targ, maybe the cooperation between ice and fire magic would have a much better result... Off the topic, but there is also one thing that has been on my mind lately, but I was afraid I would be boring other people with my "other culture" approach... In my country, in all myths and legends, dragons are considered to be positive creatures, our greatest heroes have the blood of the dragon, even our greatest national hero, Milos Obilic, is believed to be fathered by a dragon and a mortal woman. Dragons are believed to be the helpers of human kind, great heroes or fathers of great heroes. Their offspring is capable of deeds beyond human capabilities and courage... I have never read or heard that other people have the same notion about the dragons - nobody except the Serbs reveres dragons in such a way - the Targs are my first encounter with the humans who have the blood of dragons... Oh, and one more thing - the totem animal of the Serbs is a wolf, the totem animal of the Russians is a bear, both found in the North - Jung's collective unconscious archetypes are all over the place, at least for me... No wonder I like the Starks so much... Their physical appearance, as described in the books, even reminds me of the people all around me...

your country's myths and legends are very interesting, do you have any suggestions on what to read to learn more about them?

[hiraeth]

your country's myths and legends are very interesting, do you have any suggestions on what to read to learn more about them?

Gladly - maybe you can start from here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milo%C5%A1_Obili%C4%87

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kosovo - a small note: the battle was faught on St. Vitus Day, who is not venerated in Serbia - but in Serbian the name of the day is Vidovdan, meaning - Svetovid's day (maybe the supreme deity of the old Slavs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_curse

http://www.balkanium.com/forum/showthread.php/1729-The-order-of-the-dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Dragon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_mythology

Dragonborns (from Faeries, Dragons & Witch Blood)

by Radomir Ristic

In the folk beliefs of the Serbian people there are some very interesting myths which tell us how some people gained their unusual powers, intelligence, strength etc. Actually, it is believed by the Serbian people that almost every Serbian hero throughout the history was a dragonborn. That is how people have explained their heroic acts, wisdom and powers. One problem with this identification is that according to the witches' myths, witches also explain the origin of their powers and blood lines in the same manner. Eventhough people know this, no one wants to say it out loud, because that wouid mean heresy. Witches should not be in the same lineage as cult heroes. This problem becomes even bigger because in Serbia the common name for a male witch, aka a warlock , is also a dragonborn. Thus making the individual free of any Christian classifications of good and evil as such.

In Serbian mythology we can clearly see that there are at least three different kinds of Dragons. The first kind would be the dragons identified with meteors in the night sky; they are considered to be the personifications of fire. The second kind are reptile dragons or serpent dragons who are very similar to those we can find in the legends of western Europe. People believe these can be very dangerous. In most cases they are winged serpents, possessing a high amount of intelligence and behaving similar as dragonborns, actually sharing the same capabilities. The third kind of Dragons are the dragonborns ^{(srb. zmajeviti)} themselves. It is this kind that we are concerned with here.

One old epic song tells us the following about Heroes and Dragons:

• All the Serbian heroes that exist,
  
  All have been brought up by faeries,
  
  And many have dragons for fathers...
  

According to the myths some of those heroes are known as Milos Obilic, Zmaj Ognjeni Vuk, Relja Bosnjanin, Banovic Sekula, Banovic Strahinja, Ljutica Bogdan, Kraljevic Marko...

The question is how did those people become dragonborn? According to legend it could have happened in three ways. The first would be that their mother slept with a dragon, who would visit her in his human male form. Secondly, their father could have slept with a fairy ^{(srb. vila)}, or third, a fairy could have nursed (given her breast milk) to the hero when he was a baby.

If someone becomes a dragonborn because his mother was a fairy, or because a fairy has nursed him, then it seems that faeries are female dragons as well. Actually, in Serbian traditions there are several kinds of faeries. We have, lets say the "little ones" - fairies of nature, protectors of springs, lakes, trees - as well as the "Great Ones", about whom we are talking about here.

According to the Christian explanation of the old myths the Great Ones are daughters of Adam and Eve whom God cursed and then they became something like semi women very similar to fallen angels in the Book of Enoch. According to some legends they even have animal legs which they keep hidden by their dresses. They have a Queen, whose name is Jerisavlja. Very often people consider that the queen of the faeries is the Forest Mother, and so they nickname her Forest Witch or Great Witch. We can find this association in many old incantations used by people who have tried to contact her. We must emphasize that those faeries (the Great Ones) are not gentle creatures like the ones in pagan fairy tales, but they are very dangerous and have extreme powers, magical knowledge, bad temper etc. In many stories we can see them punish a person just because he has a better voice than them or he has simply seen them. Besides this they are sexually lustful and they have a tendency to sleep with young boys, shepherds or warriors. However, they do not like to be married and they do not like family life. Actually, according to myth the only Serbian King who was in a marriage with a fairy was Vukasin, and all of his children were dragonborn. (most prominent son, 'King Marko')

Dragons are sexually lustful too. Even today in eastern Serbia people believe that dragons have a tendency to visit beautiful girls at night. Very often, people believe, when such girls gave birth their baby would become a dragonborn. What nobody talks about is that if a baby is a boy, people would call him a dragonborn, and if a baby is a girl, everybody would call her a witch. What those girls and boys have in common is that both would have magic powers and knowledge, and most importantly they have capability to induce trance in others.

Why? Because they are dragons' and faeries' children, so they are just half human. Maybe they look like humans, but their souls and true natures are totally different. Usually people say that only persons with some special capabilities can see what they really look like when they are in their human bodies, but everyone can see their true form when they leave their human form. In most cases their souls were described as being animal in shape or have a mythic animal shape. For instance in one old song it is said that Serbian duke Banovic Sekula resided in a dragon body and had six wings.

From historic data we can see that dragons do not choose girls perchance. Those girls are witches, or they are from witch families. For instance, professor Stevan Dordjevic found in the city archive of Zajecar that people accused one young girl of sleeping with a dragon in the village of Osljan in 1935. She was a witch and famous for fortune telling. Later in year 1946 there was another accusation when people accused the young daughter of the famous warlock Krsta of sleeping with a dragon. In truth, people usually have nothing against dragons and their children, but they believe that it is very dangerous if a dragon stays too long in their neighborhood because he could provoke a drought. The only reason why dragons would stay in one region very long are because of the girls living there.

The closest is the enhancement of traditional folk beliefs that people have Dragonborn

positive character, protect the community, have the ability to transform into other creatures.

These are special, chosen people after a deep sleep in which they are opened

new dimension, becoming aware of their strengths. The selected person becomes Dragonborn

when a disaster is looming for his people, the great wars. They then acquire

supernatural power and become the best warriors who inspire strength and courage into the hearts

his army.

Children that were born with special marks on their body, that erudite people could interpret, were considered dragonborn. Most of them had a special relation to storms form some reason, they didn't find them frightening, but calming. As adults, they were known as guardians of their zadrugas (slavic tribal units) or villages. They were able to fight dragons, and ala's, spirits of sort that were souls of great storms. In these fights they used to reveal they true might, transferring into higher spheres of heavens, to meet the dragons as their equals

http://pinterest.com/lolalovorka/slavic-mythology/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_dragon

[bemused]

Ghost and Val come meandering through the woods , and Jon thinks they look like they belong together. This really provokes speculation. Val is wearing what could be ceremonial garb , and Ghost didn't come as quickly as he has on other occasions. Did he have something else to finish up first ? :) ..Like observe Val , or just be present while she performed some ritual , perhaps to encourage a successful negotiation between Tormund and Jon ? Were there any weirwoods nearby ?...Ghost's colouring has been likened to weirwoods throughout the books . Can he serve as a stand-in where no weirwood is present ?

When Jon opens himself to a deep connecton with Ghost , as I'm sure he will , now..I wonder if he'll experience or observe something unique or heightened , in some way different, internally , from what we've seen of other character's wolves from their POVs. Ghost has always been a bit different from the outset. He's always seemed to march to the beat of his own drum in a way the other direwolves don't , quite.

He's perfectly at ease, and seems familiar with Val, and his earlier willingness to go to Mel also raised questions.

I think there's a notable difference between those two encounters , which reinforces my feeling that a fire god healing or( avert!) ressurrection would be wrong for Jon. With Mel , there seems to be some sort of spell , or manipulation at work . I originally even wondered if it might not be Ghost , but a glamoured dog . On re-thinking , I feel it was another sort of spell . She uses her voice , as she does with Jon and Mance, and we know she keeps all sorts of powders and what not about her person for all types of purposes. During the encounter, she then goes on to lay the groundwork to seduce Jon into creating shadows with her ( Stannis' shadow power is almost used up )..

To her, Jon and Ghost are just resources to be used in the furtherance of her vision for Stannis and to the glory of her god. ( And consequently, helping to earn her , what in her view , would be an exalted state of being. ) When she tells Jon she can teach him how to develop his bond with Ghost , I don't think she knows what she's talking about , or she's talking about something more akin to possession ,and doesn't know there's a difference..which I think , ideally , there should be. ( I don't think Varamyr's methods of skinchanging are ideal . He too merely uses , when I think ideally , more of a collaboration is implied by GRRM )

As we still have something to learn about Ghost , the possibility also exists that he was just in some way , playing along..checking Mel out , of his own volition .. or maybe BR's , as the case may be . ;) ( I say that in half-jest).

Val and Ghost just seem to be walking together naturally like two friends strolling along, and when Jon thinks they look like they belong together , perhaps , in a way they do. Not the same way that Jon and Ghost belong together, but still connected, in some way.

I don't know if I think Val knows about Bran and BR , but if Val believes the gods may answer her through the weirwoods ? ... Or if she does go into a meditative state to receive visions , that's not so different from dreaming.

OT..Hiraeth , that a very fascinating post. Thanks.

[hiraeth]

your country's myths and legends are very interesting, do you have any suggestions on what to read to learn more about them?

Serbs - The People Of The Wolf

Dabog, master of the dead, ruler of the underworld, protector of the wolves,

made by themselves, black and lame, according to the ancient belief of

Apocalypse, will take troops of Serbvampires towards the final cosmic settlement.

Dabog's cult, known as a cult of the supreme tribal deity, one of the gods of

Slavish Pantheon, is incarnated from the first animistic cults early Metal era,

old Aryan mysticism origin, so Doomsday should not be understood as the Christian

Day of Apocalypse, as neither meaning nor result of "Cosmic Battle" are not

convergent with metaphysics of the end of the world created in chaos of Christian

belief. Morewise, cause, plan and purpose of this cosmic clash aren't clear

completly. This essential motive Serbian pre-religion remains inexplicable,

because the researching was mostly done around saved demonology kept in the

customs and tradition while the pre-religion vanished. Hypothetically, signpost

of something which is in some way established in Slavenian paganism lead to

Svetavid, divinity of war and wisdom as the supreme god of all Slavens. Taking

in advance this god of all gods as thoroughbred "dis patez" and genetic source

of entire race mother Slava, the pre-mother, every slaven tribe each surely

had its particular, tribal "dis patez". This mentioned "nation father", remarkable

god and parent of the tribe people is the darkest slavenian divinity, god of

darkness and underworlds, htonic Dabog, in slavenian pre-religion equivalent to

Hellenic Tartar and germanic Votan.

Like any other slaven divinity, Dabog is son of Svarog, god of the wood and

blacksmiths, previously born as a wolf. That black lame wolf of antrophomorphic

kind became something between man and wolf, the idea probably of early animistic

origin. Of the same origin is generated a global vision of the werewolf in every

Indo-European mythology. Dabog, a wolfish deity, is the first one given the secret

of steel and the skill of forge by Svarog. Therefore, is ritual Dabog's cult of

the hatchet, kept in Serbian people to nowdays. Energy, genetically inherited by

Serbs, from the cult of Dabog is kept and linked with Sava the Saint, the

national one, son of the first Serbian ruler Nemanja (XI century), and the

fetishism of the axe has interwaved the folkways of christian holidays to the

presence of today. So it's special relationship for the wolves, traditionally

keeps the importance of privileged animals, with domestic animals, sacrificed in

their names and personal name "Vuk"(Wolf) according to the national customs has

the meaning of talisman to recent past. With medieval baptizing of slavens and

decreasing of old gods into demonic realm, Dabog was not assimilated with Satan,

as it could be expected, in spite of its very character, but supreme national

christian saint Sava, one of the most intense cults in the Orthodox's. It was

possible based on Dabog's moral indifference, as any other pagan deity, anyway.

Cult of Dabog Contains an important futuristic mysticism tied to metaphysic

destiny and purpose of the nation. According to this ancient creed, Serbs are

people that extinct, in a way that every deceased Serb becomes a vampire-the

warrior of the underworld. The cult very close to scandinavian cult of Valhalla,

dead Serb becomes in Dabog's realm, in the castle of glass in the unfathomable

depth dark pre-ocean that bears the world, a warrior armed with axe, riding the

black lame wolf, waiting the final cosmic battle. Vampire is in fact demon-werewolf,

creature united wolfish and human instincts. Serbian yore doesn't have more

horrifying fear of anything else but of werewolves, so there is Moon-Manus, one

of the gods. This is already known and out of serbian territories, German sixteen

century ethnomaps mark the serbian territory with wolf jaw wide open symbol.

According to oral tradition, before the Day of Apocalypse reach its dawn, the last

serbian descendant on Earth will pass over into Dabog's realm, and then it's time

when every troop of Serb vampires-werewolves on the bottom of pre-ocean is completed.

This gloomy legend distinct Serbs from other slavenian brothers. The pre-religion]

of other slavenian tribes is based on shiner divinities. Widely spreaded cult of

spring and importance of goddess Vesna in Russians confirms that, or mother Slava

herself, the ancient cult intensively present through soviet soc-realistic symbolism,

in colossal monument Mother-Russia in Volgograd.

The leaning to the dark side of home-ground myth could be partly considered as

racial feature of serbian psychism, completed with fact of well-kept demonology

to nowdays. Historical occasions in which Serbs exists, from the medieval mist realm

failure, are here just to intensify this racial resolve and to emphasize unconscious

fatalism metaphysic fate of nation, psycho-mechanism based on archetypal model

of myth. In the depth of serbian soul, as in Fore mother's uterus warmth, bliss

and root power, still feeding the belief, in a way of some deep unconscious process,

that on the Day of Apocalypse the gates of castle of glass will be opened, and

troops of serbian vampires will ride out on wolves, led to final cosmic settlement

by their god and Forefather, black lame wolf Dabog.

Common among the Kashubs of what is now northern Poland, and the Serbs and Slovenes, was the belief that if a child was born with hair, a birthmark or a caul on their head, they were supposed to possess shape-shifting abilities. Though capable of turning into any animal they wished, it was commonly believed that such people preferred to turn into a wolf.

Cult of the Wolf Among the Ancient Slavs

According to Veselin Čajkanović, the wolf is the mythical ancestor of the Serbian people. Seeing how the Serbs have from great antiquity worshipped Dažbog, it’s perfectly logical that his animal form would be the Serbian totem animal. With the onset of Christianity Saint Sava (Saul) took over most of Dažbog’s functions, among other things his lupine characteristics. For this reason St Sava is called the protector of wolves or, like the above mentioned Lesovik, “the wolf’s shepherd”. The belief that the wolf is their animalistic ancestor among Serbs manifests itself in many traditions and ceremonies. For instance, when a son is born, the announcement of his birth in the village goes like this: “Of the she-wolf a wolf is borne!” The Serbian mother would inform her son of his lupine origins by singing him a lullaby that goes like this: “Sleep my son, my wolf and my beast, the she-wolf bare you in the mountains”. Another custom shows that Serbs believed in their lupine origin. The newborn would be passed throw a wolf’s jaws, so as to grant it protection from evil, disease and malevolent demons. In this manner the divine Serbian ancestor, Dažbog's lame wolf would protect his progeny. The use of countless lupine charms had the same purpose, as a result various parts of a wolf would often be used to fend of malicious forces. The best known ones were wolf’s teeth, jaws, eyes, the heart, claws and hairs; the hairs were believed to be powerful enough to drive away the devil himself.

The personal name Vuk (Wolf) is actually a quite frequent name among the Serbs, seeing how in the past it was believed that he who bears the name of this totem animal is protected from all evils. Even today names containing this word are frequent: boys’ names like Vuk, Vukašin, Vukan, girls’ names like Vučica and Vukica, and surnames like Vučić, Vujošević, Vukadinović, Vujović, Vukelić, Vučelić and many more. Numerous place-names are connected to this animal ancestor as well: Vučidol, Vukodraž, Vučitrn, Vučje brdo &c. There are many places in the neighbouring Bulgaria that contain the same word, in its Bulgarian form “v’lk” (вьлк); for instance: V’lk, V’lkan, V’lkovci, V’lkoviya, V’lči grad’, V’lčovci, V’lčinya &c.

What was the role of the wolf in the religious lives of ancient Slavs? Some customs survive to this day, and so, based on them, we can reconstruct some of the basic traits of the wolf’s cult.

In Serbia, the winter holiday called Mratinci is dedicated to the wolf. Beside that, the festival of St Sava, also connected to this animal, the reason for this, as we have already mentioned, is that the Serbian saint and protector took over the functions of Dažbog. During the lupine holiday the wolf would be offered sacrifices in the form of food, and also some ceremonies to protect oneself from the wolves, who caused great damages to the peasants by attacking the livestock. For instance, on Christmas the Serbs would prepare “the wolf’s supper”, a sacrificial offering that was meant to appease the wolf and provide protection of the livestock. This “wolf’s supper” would be brought to a crossroads by a family member, usually a child, who would leave the offering and go straight home without looking back. It’s believed, in both Serbia and Montenegro, that the winter saint, St Thomas, and the Holy Archangel open the wolf’s jaws to punish disobedient shepherds, that is to say that by performing the so-called sympathic magic they sick wolves on the bad shepherds’ herds. It’s customary in Bulgaria that women don’t spin or weave wool during the lupine holiday, i.e. that they do nothing having to do with wool or fleece, otherwise their sheep would pay the price. What’s in common for all the Slavic peoples in the Balkans is that the wolf must not be mentioned during this so-called lupine holiday. If one should still mention him, it was believed that he would thus be summoned and that he would bring great destruction to livestock and the people. The wolf also must not be mentioned at night, during his reign, so instead of the name they’d call him the unmentionable, wilderness, stone-one or fiend.

One protects himself from the wolf by making him a familial relation. This magical practice is called “kumljenje” (a “kum”, or a female “kuma” is a close friend that is considered almost a relation; today it’s most often a best man or maiden of honour, or a godparent) and it was quite frequent in Serb religious life. And so a man would become the “kum” of a wolf, which granted him protection, because a wolf wouldn’t harm someone who’s in a way related to him, physically or economically by attacking his livestock. The Serbs would protect themselves from the black plague with a ritual of “kumljenje” by summoning for that purpose Čuma, i.e. the personification of the black plague and calling her their “kuma”. Even today, in a time we can still call Christian, people perform “kumljenje” in the old, pagan manner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sava

WOLF IN SLAVIC MYTHOLOGY

The Wolf , hort – in Slavic mythology and folklore wolf is associated with shape-shifting (werewolves, Wolchs, Wurdalacks) endowed with great wisdom.

In Slavic folklore wolf personifies the dark cloud covering the sun, and a general darkness. Wolf is close in the mythological functions to other predators (raven, lynx and especially a bear) and it is closely connected with a dog. According to Slavic legends, god modeled wolf from clay or hewed it from a tree trunk, but could not put a soul in it, animate it. Recovered by the God, the wolf rushes to get a soul, but it suffices for a leg. Chthonic properties of the wolf (his origin connected with the earth surface, clay, legends about treasures ‘leaving’ the soil in the form of the wolf) put it together with reptiles, especially with snakes. Snakes / reptiles (in Russian – ‘gadu’), cranes and jackdaws appeared from shavings of wolf’s made by devil.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Da%C5%BEbog

[hiraeth]

your country's myths and legends are very interesting, do you have any suggestions on what to read to learn more about them?

Oh, and one more thing:

It is commonly claimed that worshiping among Slavic people often happened in the woods rather than in shrines. Such woods were called "gaje" in the Proto-Slavic language (compare Polish gaj 'small wood, thicket, bush, grove'; see: sacred grove), and were sometimes encircled by a fence which created a sacred area, both a natural and social sphere. Sometimes they would be used as cemeteries as well (see Kleczanów Wood

[hiraeth]

Oh, and one more thing:

It is commonly claimed that worshiping among Slavic people often happened in the woods rather than in shrines. Such woods were called "gaje" in the Proto-Slavic language (compare Polish gaj 'small wood, thicket, bush, grove'; see: sacred grove), and were sometimes encircled by a fence which created a sacred area, both a natural and social sphere. Sometimes they would be used as cemeteries as well (see Kleczanów Wood

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Svantevit-Statue.jpg - weirwood face?

[Budj]

As we still have something to learn about Ghost , the possibility also exists that he was just in some way , playing along..checking Mel out , of his own volition .. or maybe BR's , as the case may be . ;) ( I say that in half-jest).

No joking - the thought for that is set by BR telling Bran that an animal with a bond/that has been warged is easier to warg. I think Greenseer's can enter whatever they want if it isn't already occupied...

[bemused]

Yeah , Budj ..I really do like that idea ( that's why I only said half..)...I think BR would be tearing his hair out by now ( if he had any, and if he could move ) waiting for Jon to get with the program ! :D

[Lady of Long Lake]

A

Winterfellian...I think quite a few people have speculated that Tormund's bear woman was a Mormont and that the Mormonts could have some skinchangers in the family. I find the idea appealing.. :D. Actually , given Tormund's tall-talking ways , she wouldn't actually need to have been a skinchanger , just a Mormont... Besides ( I don't know if anyone's mentioned this , but I wouldn't be surprised ), Tormund still speaks of her fondly , and says she gave him the strongest sons... OK , Tormund had 4 sons that we know of, and one daughter. There's Toregg and Dryn ( careful , he bites ) ,the frail son who died and became a wight , and the one who was killed in the battle with Stannis... And there seems to be an inordinate number of women among the Mormonts (can't look up names tonight ..only Alysanne and Lyanna are coming to me at the moment ).

But back to Tormond's story..he started thinking about her and had the urge to go see her ( note he didn't steal her ). So was this an ongoing long distance affair ( or even marriage) with him raising any sons and her raising any daughters ?..Hmmm.. Tormund and Maege, maybe ? Mormont women seem awfully coy about mentioning their husbands (see Alysanne and Asha's conversation ). Now , after reading Theon's gift chapter from TWoW, I wonder about Alysanne, and whether we'll see a real family reunion at the wall ? ( Just tickles my fancy )

That's all I can do , tonight..my fingers are cramping ;)

Love this idea!

[Fire Eater]

There is the universal myth of the World Tree that could tie in with the weirwood. The trunk of the tree represented the realm of mortals, the upper branches the sky, the realm of heavenly deities and celestial bodies and the roots which represented the underworld. Veles was the Slavic god of earth, water and the underworld, and he was associated with sorcery and dragons. Veles was in conflict with the thunder god Perun.

The CotF cave is a kind of underworld as it has weirwood roots coming out of its walls, and Bloodraven as a kind of Veles. He was associated with the Targaryens whose sigil is a dragon, had a reputation as a sorcerer and the magic of greenseeing that is connected to the Old Gods, is rooted in earth and water.

The duality and conflict of Perun and Veles does not represent the dualistic clash of good and evil; rather, it is the opposition of the natural principles of earth, water and substance (Veles) against heaven, fire and spirit (Perun).

[Cyfer]

Did nobody get Val and Dalla = Valhalla?

You said Val (and Dalla) What is in a name? And nobody has mentioned Valhalla! :P

Valhalla is the Sovngarde/Heaven of the Norse realm/religion.

Could Val and Dalla be named as indications that they will be the salvation to Westeros or the Wildlings?

[The Snowman]

This thread is great.

Did nobody get Val and Dalla = Valhalla?

You said Val (and Dalla) What is in a name? And nobody has mentioned Valhalla! :P

Valhalla is the Sovngarde/Heaven of the Norse realm/religion.

Could Val and Dalla be named as indications that they will be the salvation to Westeros or the Wildlings?

Its a very interesting connection and likely means there is much more to Val than she's letting on

bemused, on 23 May 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

A

Winterfellian...I think quite a few people have speculated that Tormund's bear woman was a Mormont and that the Mormonts could have some skinchangers in the family. I find the idea appealing.. :D. Actually , given Tormund's tall-talking ways , she wouldn't actually need to have been a skinchanger , just a Mormont... Besides ( I don't know if anyone's mentioned this , but I wouldn't be surprised ), Tormund still speaks of her fondly , and says she gave him the strongest sons... OK , Tormund had 4 sons that we know of, and one daughter. There's Toregg and Dryn ( careful , he bites ) ,the frail son who died and became a wight , and the one who was killed in the battle with Stannis... And there seems to be an inordinate number of women among the Mormonts (can't look up names tonight ..only Alysanne and Lyanna are coming to me at the moment ).

But back to Tormond's story..he started thinking about her and had the urge to go see her ( note he didn't steal her ). So was this an ongoing long distance affair ( or even marriage) with him raising any sons and her raising any daughters ?..Hmmm.. Tormund and Maege, maybe ? Mormont women seem awfully coy about mentioning their husbands (see Alysanne and Asha's conversation ). Now , after reading Theon's gift chapter from TWoW, I wonder about Alysanne, and whether we'll see a real family reunion at the wall ? ( Just tickles my fancy )

That's all I can do , tonight..my fingers are cramping ;)

This is really interesting and would be great if it actually played like this. It would further help Jon bring the Northman and Wildings together...which would help. So do the Mormonts not like the Ironborn but are sorta okay will the wildings?

[Robeezy]

Why does Val want Shireen dead so badly? What is she so afraid of? I'm interested to see where Martin goes with this one. Is greyscale somehow related to the others or will she simply go mad from it (thought that only happened to adults). I also believe Val will have a bigger role to play in the next book, and we will get to see some of her powers fairly quickly. Not sure about Tormund though, he seem's too simple for that kind of stuff.

[Fire Eater]

Why does Val want Shireen dead so badly? What is she so afraid of? I'm interested to see where Martin goes with this one. Is greyscale somehow related to the others or will she simply go mad from it (thought that only happened to adults). I also believe Val will have a bigger role to play in the next book, and we will get to see some of her powers fairly quickly. Not sure about Tormund though, he seem's too simple for that kind of stuff.

Val doesn't want to kill Shireen badly, it's just that she knows greyscale is dormant in her, and will reactivate again and greyscale is contagious. She would rather Shireen be killed as a mercy rather than a slow death by greyscale.

[Robeezy]

Val doesn't want to kill Shireen badly, it's just that she knows greyscale is dormant in her, and will reactivate again and greyscale is contagious. She would rather Shireen be killed as a mercy rather than a slow death by greyscale.

Well i do see what you saying, she does state that killing Val would be a mercy. However, she also gets angry and says "The child is not clean!" and "I want the monster out of there, the child is dead, I brought you Tormund, bring me my monster" The normal calm Val actually got quite forceful about it and Jon seemed shocked. She says the child is already dead, which makes me wonder if the others can use Shireen or something and thats why Val wants her.

[bemused]

I think Val simply means that there is no cure for greyscale ,and her death is a foregone conclusion..but in the meantime,before she dies a horrible death, she could start an epidemic. It's her "monster " ( Gilly's baby) she wants out of the same building with Shireen, away from danger of infection.

Snowman93... Well, I kind of do think for the Mormont women it might be a case of , Better a wildling than one of the Iron Born..:D The free folk do allow women more autonomy ( You can own a wife or a knife, but not both....if you mistreat her ) The Iron Born take salt wives..which they may not see as slavery , but to outsiders , it has to seem pretty close to it . Asha being a fighter and in a position of leadership ,is an anomaly among the Iron Born..but common among the wildlings. I think Mormont women might feel more attuned to a wildling outlook on life.

[Little Wing]

Yeah, there's a lot of Slavic mythology in ASoIaF.

What really brought it home for me was Ned's limping after he was wounded in the street in King's Landing, like Dazbog, a Serbian wolf-like deity who was limping as a symbol of the sun losing its strength every year with the coming of winter, as it was a sun deity.

And yes, there are three kinds of dragons, in Serbian: Azdaja, Ala and Zmaj. Only the last kind is deemed equal and/or superior to man, the first two are considered monsters.

There's much more but hiraeth has pretty much beat me to the punch :)