Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

[karmic relief]

alienarea...I don't see Borroq as being in quite the same category , but I have always felt that he'll prove to be helpful to Jon before it's all over. He can familiarize Jon with the "laws" of skinchanging , as he learned them , and with 2 rational people inhabiting their animals, I don't know if those animals will maintain an adversarial stance to each other. He calls Jon "brother" at their first meeting.. seems a far different attitude from Varamyr's " Warg !" ETA; He could be quite important in the near future.

I hadn't considered it until just now, but wow, Borroq's presence suddenly makes a lot of sense from a plot perspective. I know that another thread theorized that he plays an active role in Jon's assassination, but maybe he's simply there to be able to point out that Jon has warged into Ghost.

You know, assuming that that is what is going to happen.

And assuming that while the other characters may suspect Jon is a warg, Borroq can confirm it, and knows some of the details of second life.

[Valkyrja]

Ok....this is a bit off-topic, but somewhat related: how close to the animal (or person) does the skinchanger have to be in order to warg into it?

I ask because as I was reading, I actually had a feeling that Jon was going to die, and might need to warg into Ghost (I took the Varamyr Six-skins prologue as foreshadowing). I figured that Melisandre perhaps knew he was going to die as well (at the time I thought maybe it was because she was going to burn him in a sacrifice....or because she had seen his death in the flames....random, but you never know). I also thought that this was the reason she kept telling Jon to keep his direwolf close....because she sensed he would need Ghost for more than just companionship or even protection. It was for this reason that I got really upset when Jon locked Ghost away and then subsequently got himself stabbed (possibly to death).

So my question is.....*can* Jon even warg into Ghost at this point? Is Ghost close enough? Is Jon able to consciously warg? I just feel like everyone is assuming he will warg into Ghost. But honestly, my main worry during the (attempted?) assassination was not even whether or not Jon would live or die, but whether or not Ghost was close enough for him to warg into.

This is why I am truly confused about what has actually happened to Jon in that last chapter, and why I *hope* he is not dead, but just in need of some super-powerful-and-awesome wildling priestess healing (or intercession of the Old Gods).

[Fire Eater]

Ok....this is a bit off-topic, but somewhat related: how close to the animal (or person) does the skinchanger have to be in order to warg into it?

I ask because as I was reading, I actually had a feeling that Jon was going to die, and might need to warg into Ghost (I took the Varamyr Six-skins prologue as foreshadowing). I figured that Melisandre perhaps knew he was going to die as well (at the time I thought maybe it was because she was going to burn him in a sacrifice....or because she had seen his death in the flames....random, but you never know). I also thought that this was the reason she kept telling Jon to keep his direwolf close....because she sensed he would need Ghost for more than just companionship or even protection. It was for this reason that I got really upset when Jon locked Ghost away and then subsequently got himself stabbed (possibly to death).

So my question is.....*can* Jon even warg into Ghost at this point? Is Ghost close enough? Is Jon able to consciously warg? I just feel like everyone is assuming he will warg into Ghost. But honestly, my main worry during the (attempted?) assassination was not even whether or not Jon would live or die, but whether or not Ghost was close enough for him to warg into.

This is why I am truly confused about what has actually happened to Jon in that last chapter, and why I *hope* he is not dead, but just in need of some super-powerful-and-awesome wildling priestess healing (or intercession of the Old Gods).

Arya is still able to warg Nymeria in the Riverlands all the way from Braavos.

[Valkyrja]

Arya is still able to warg Nymeria in the Riverlands all the way from Braavos.

Der...., oops! :blushing: Well, I guess I always viewed those wolf dreams more as subconscious-warging....rather than consciously doing it. But perhaps when a Warg is dying they can just ....subconsciously enter their animals? Ah well....., I am probably making too much of the subject as it relates t to this thread....so, nevermind....carry on. :D

[Winterfellian]

I really like the idea of Val being connected to the Olg Gods in some way. I like the line of thinking that sugests that Theon's apparent sacrifice in front of a heart might be the ''price'' for Jons's comeback. If so, maybe a priest or someone who conduct the ceremony might be needed and this is where Val might enter the picture.

Sorry but I can't see Tormund as some of kind of connection to the Gods. Whenever I think of him I can't help but remember the story he told Jon on ASOS about how he mated with a bear thinking it was some freakishly strong woman :laugh:

[Jayce]

What if he doesn't warg Ghost as he is not trained but just going on blind luck/skill, what if his subconscious panics and wargs (skinchanges) something/one else?

Hmm, maybe Wun Wun? :laugh:

[Valkyrja]

What if he doesn't warg Ghost as he is not trained but just going on blind luck/skill, what if his subconscious panics and wargs (skinchanges) something/one else? Hmm, maybe Wun Wun? :laugh:

LOL......now that would something! :laugh:

As for Tormund, I simply cannot think of him as anything but 'him of the giant member', though that certainly does not preclude him being associated with the Old Gods (Freyr anyone?) ;)

[Lummel]

I don't think that Freyr necessarily had a giant member, rather an efficient and fecund one.

[Valkyrja]

Yes, indeed, but one cannot help be reminded since Tormund brings his up so often. Though sometimes I wonder if he is just compensating for something.... :P

[Lummel]

Oh dear, Tormund slightly below average sized member. Doesn't have quite the same the ring. :)

[The Anti-Targ]

If Melisandre and Val are going to fight over who will 'revive'/heal/bring back Jon, then I know I would greatly prefer it to be Val (even though we don't know a ton about her yet I just feel like she'd be better at it than Mel, lol!)......I don't want Jon to be the Beric Dondarrion type of undead. :(

Mel possibly has a somewhat more refined technique than Thoros. Remember Thoros was a drunken sot for a long time, so he may have gone a but rusty on some of the finer points of resurrection technique.

I wouldn't mind Jon coming back as a fire elemental, he'd sure make short work of the wights that way.

[Sword Of Mid Afternoon]

I would've though Wun Wun and Leathers would be better intermediaries. Old Tongue for the old gods? Though Tormund probably knows a bit of the old tongue, I'd reckon.

For a 'twice as big as Hodor with half the wits' fellow, he became remarkably docile and understanding when Leathers said they came to pray.

[Valkyrja]

Mel possibly has a somewhat more refined technique than Thoros. Remember Thoros was a drunken sot for a long time, so he may have gone a but rusty on some of the finer points of resurrection technique. I wouldn't mind Jon coming back as a fire elemental, he'd sure make short work of the wights that way.

Actually, what if a combination of both Ice and Fire were needed to revive Jon? Both Val and Mel? Hmmm.... .:)

[bemused]

Argh! I've been trying to find time to post here for days , but keep getting interrupted.

TheeMikeHoncho... ( Thee, thee, not 3..apologies..)

So..you see my crackpot and raise me one..or .. one good crackpot deserves another..:D

( I have to say , I'm not a fan of the Jojen paste theory either. Yuck!)

But going back to main part of your post and , and Fire Eater's , I'm finding little nuggets that help to coalesce my thoughts . I really like the " words are wind " interpretation, especially with the number of times that phrase is repeated in ADwD , and considering Bran's and Theon's storylines . ( That hadn't occurred to me, but it's pretty perfect.) And likening the weirwoods to Yggdrasil. Very fitting.

Also the horn of Joramun..I've been very curious about all the mystery horns..Victarion's has Valyrian glyphs , Sam's smaller , broken , banded in bronze ( I think ) but I can't remember if there was any writing on the bands..Mance's ..well, I just wonder if it really was burned, or if it was something else , glamoured...I don't know if that could be , what with the runes glowing in the air... But I wouldn't be surprised if Val ( or others ) could read the runes ...How did they know it wasn't the horn of Joramun ?..Did they sound it to see if it raised giants from the earth ? ( it was found in a giant's grave )..or did the runes identify it as something else ? ..( and even further OT, I wonder , now that Sallador Saan is a pirate again , if he'll go back for the supposed Kraken horn ?)

Val the Wildling Poster..:)..yeah, I did post something similar on the Moonsingers thread ,but it was a bit more celtic focused. This is more evolved . I know more about Celtic mythology off the top of my head , and though I have a couple of books on Norse mythology, I haven't read them for a while, and I recently loaned them out. So while there are similarities with Celtic stuff, once I started delving into the Norse , things just started falling into place. I'd forgotten just how important the women seers were.

The vala carried wands or staffs as the symbol of their office and , apparently , a practical tool , since they could reportedly cause forgetfullness with them ( which , I guess, is where our idea of magic wands come from ). What we see for both Val and Morna is the weirwood mask ... Morna's a mask , Val's a mask pin..I'd like to meet some other woods witches and see if this is sort of the eqivalent .

Winterfellian...I think quite a few people have speculated that Tormund's bear woman was a Mormont and that the Mormonts could have some skinchangers in the family. I find the idea appealing..:D. Actually , given Tormund's tall-talking ways , she wouldn't actually need to have been a skinchanger , just a Mormont... Besides ( I don't know if anyone's mentioned this , but I wouldn't be surprised ), Tormund still speaks of her fondly , and says she gave him the strongest sons... OK , Tormund had 4 sons that we know of, and one daughter. There's Toregg and Dryn ( careful , he bites ) ,the frail son who died and became a wight , and the one who was killed in the battle with Stannis... And there seems to be an inordinate number of women among the Mormonts (can't look up names tonight ..only Alysanne and Lyanna are coming to me at the moment ).

But back to Tormond's story..he started thinking about her and had the urge to go see her ( note he didn't steal her ). So was this an ongoing long distance affair ( or even marriage) with him raising any sons and her raising any daughters ?..Hmmm.. Tormund and Maege, maybe ? Mormont women seem awfully coy about mentioning their husbands (see Alysanne and Asha's conversation ). Now , after reading Theon's gift chapter from TWoW, I wonder about Alysanne, and whether we'll see a real family reunion at the wall ? ( Just tickles my fancy )

That's all I can do , tonight..my fingers are cramping ;)

[Mourning Sword]

I hope Jon has to warg into Borroq's boar. Ghost was jealous of him the moment he arrived. That boar is boss mode!

Also I know it is a stupid thing to point out in the shadow of the greatness of the first post, and a stretch at best, but their names sound like Valhalla. Val and Dalla, that is.

[nothatso]

I was just rereading AFFC and noticed another piece of relevant information (I think, unless I missed something).

In the Sam chapter where they have Aemon's funeral, Sam states to Gilly his belief that Jon shouldn't have sent them away because Aemon was too old to survive the voyage.

Gilly's response:

"Or else she might have burned him. The red woman." Even here, a thousand leagues from the Wall, Gilly was reluctant to say Lady Melisandre's name aloud. "She wanted king's blood for her fires. Val knew she did. Lord Snow too."

Just seemed like a curious inclusion, not sure if it's significant. However it's worth noting that the chapter in which Melisandre burns "Mance", and many wildlings join her in her prayers (Val does not), takes place after Sam, Gilly, Aemon, and the baby are sent away.

[LordDolorousEdd]

I really like this idea of Val being more then we are led to believe I think it is great and has some good points.

On the other hand Tormund not so much. He is a boss and one of my favourite characters but he is awesome as he is and trying to make him something else would ruin his character.

[bemused]

nothatso.. nice ! I haven't read AFfC for a while, I wonder what other gems are there.

Val is certainly aware of a lot, for someone who's kept more or less locked away. I know Jon would have had to tell her about the danger to Mance's son ( or would have thought he did ) but apparently she didn't need any convincing ( not from Jon's POV ,anyway )... And she tells Jon that Mel knows about the baby switch. Again , I wonder if she could see through Mance's glamour.

[bemused]

LordDolorousEdd...I don't see how this would diminish Tormund's awesomeness as a character .. ( Enhances it , really ). ;)... It doesn't make him anything different from what he is..It's that if he is " Speaker to Gods" in the sense of the old Norse culture, the one role is part of the other.

No one would want him to speak to the Gods on their behalf if he wasn't a strong leader, and he'd never get to have as large a following if he couldn't be a competent " Speaker to Gods"...He'd still have to be brave in battle , wise in judgement , charismatic , etc.

We just don't know how similar GRRM is imagining the wildling culture to be. It could be merely superficial at one extreme, to very similar at the other..or any number of possibilities in between.

[hiraeth]

Very good post, and dont forget her interaction with Ghost. Remember when Jon called for Ghost when he was with Val in the Haunted Woods and he would come. Jon thought that it was odd (cant remember exactly what he said) and unnatural. <edit> I also thought well after i read what you posted about if Val is a practioner of the druidic arts then what is the likely hood that she would know of Bloodraven or even Bran?

You are definitely on to something here - I am not sure Martin has ever been the student of old religions, or comparative religions, for that matter, but there are too many parallels with the Norse religion in the North and beyond the Wall to be ignored. Coming from a different cultural matrix, I have observed many similarities between the Old Slavic pantheon and the gods of different religions in Westeros. For example, the old pagan god (in some opinions the supreme deity of the Old Slavs) was Triglav (three-headed god) - one of his head represented Svarog (the sky, heavens), one represented Svetovid (god of justice, war and knowledge (the seeing)) and the third either represented Perun (the god of thunder), Volos (the god of agriculture) or Dajbog (the god of plenty). Furthermore, Svetovid, for example, was represented as a four-headed deity, the four heads representing the cardinal sides of the world.... The Seven of the Andals have always reminded me of the old Slavic gods, the unity of seven in one... As to the religion of the North, I completely agree with you as to the fact that Tormund could easily be some kind of the leader/priest/father - even in our modern days of well-established Christianity, in my country, almost all families celebrate their family saints - it's some kind of a feast in honour of the dead ancestors and the patron saint... This custom is unique in the world, it's a mixture of old Slavic religion and Christianity - but the thing is, where there is no priest around, the father of the family officiates, i.e., acts as a priest in a small family ritual... The same goes for the clans and tribes (we no longer have a tribal society, but the memories still linger)... I am not sure Martin has ever heard of the folk customs of different Slavic people, but there are definitely many similarities between the North and the old Slavic way of life symbolized in their clan division, morale, organisation of the society as a whole. And since almost all European religions stem from the same root, it's no wonder that people of different backgrounds can find similarity with their own past and customs, which makes Martin's world universal, giving it this special quality - no matter what side of the world you're coming from, some aspects of the Song will strike a cord in your subconsciousness...