Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

[drunken giant]

Hey it may have been mentioned before but before Val goes north to find the wildlings she has Grey eyes when she returns she has blue any ideas

[Ducky Reed]

Hey it may have been mentioned before but before Val goes north to find the wildlings she has Grey eyes when she returns she has blue any ideas

Eyes can seem different colors sometimes depending on colors around them. Mine are green but look grey most of the time.

[addicted to snow]

Eyes can seem different colors sometimes depending on colors around them. Mine are green but look grey most of the time.

True, but this is probably not what GRRM was getting at when he changed her eye color to blue upon returning...

[alienarea]

Blue eyes, baby's got blue eyes

[Amoracchius]

True, but this is probably not what GRRM was getting at when he changed her eye color to blue upon returning...

GRRM has numerous times expressed regret over specifying every character's eye color and has admitted to accidentally changing characters' eye colors from chapter to chapter and book to book. His "eye color rant" has been a staple of his appearances for years and he's mentioned it while specifically discussing ADWD, so I find it very hard to believe that he's using changing eye colors as a hint at something while simultaneously and adamantly telling his readers that he doesn't do that.

[addicted to snow]

GRRM has numerous times expressed regret over specifying every character's eye color and has admitted to accidentally changing characters' eye colors from chapter to chapter and book to book. His "eye color rant" has been a staple of his appearances for years and he's mentioned it while specifically discussing ADWD, so I find it very hard to believe that he's using changing eye colors as a hint at something while simultaneously and adamantly telling his readers that he doesn't do that.

Yeah, but this was not an accident… he may say it was an accident for now, to hide what is going on, but it was no accident...

[Amoracchius]

Yeah, but this was not an accident… he may say it was an accident for now, to hide what is going on, but it was no accident...

Once again, I'm glad to hear that you have the ability to read GRRM's mind and that you know what he means better than he does.

Seriously, ATS, I've seen you use logic and evidence to make a point so I know you're capable of it. Please, stop with these platitude spouting, "You're wrong because I said so," posts. Make a reasoned argument and participate in the discussion, don't just assert your ideas as fact.

[liknar]

Last night I was thinking of another bit of her exchange with Jon when she's leaving to find Tormund. She asks him if he killed Jarl the Climber. In reply , he swears it was not his doing .. the wall killed Jarl . She says " So I'd heard. ", but she had to be certain ....Well, who did she hear it from ? I can't quite remember offhand , but wasn't Styr's whole party killed ? If not , they would hardly have had time to make it back to Mance before he attacked.. and after that, Val was in captivity ( and not just penned up with the other run-of-the-mill captives ). So..what the..?? :shocked:

They rode horses to the Wall. It doesn't make sense to abandon them. Also Mace would need to know that they made it over the wall to know to attack Castle Black. So it would make sense to leave some of the party behind to take the horses back. No magic needed to learn what happened to Jarl.

Other than that i can't disagree with the OP's theory.

[bemused]

liknar..That's true . I had meant to pop back in and correct that. Maybe I did it on another Val thread .. Anyway I believe it was specifically mentioned that some men would stay behind and clear up any sign that the climbers had been there , then report back to Mance that the group was on it's way, taking back the horses , etc.

[Mithras]

I now (I mean after watching a certain episode of a certain series :D ) think that Val is not an intermediary to the Old Gods. To be precise, she is intermediary to the Cold Gods. She got a little cold touch in the North and her eyes went blue. She is tasked by the Cold Gods to seduce Jon (whose seeds might be used to dispel the ward at the Wall).

[The Unsmiling Knight]

I've always thought there was something more to Val. Excellent post!

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

I now (I mean after watching a certain episode of a certain series :D ) think that Val is not an intermediary to the Old Gods. To be precise, she is intermediary to the Cold Gods. She got a little cold touch in the North and her eyes went blue. She is tasked by the Cold Gods to seduce Jon (whose seeds might be used to dispel the ward at the Wall).

I do agree that there is something weird about Val and her power over Jon. Val even has weird pwoer over Stannis (why is he so intent on having her be Lady of Winterfell?) and she has a weird power over Ser Patrick. It is similar to Gilly's weird power over Sam and Ramsay's mother's power over Roose.

In all of these situations, men do things that are way out of character and way out of their best interest for a woman they hardly know. Are people that horny in Westeros?

That said, Tormund seems to have connections to the Old Gods ("Speaker to Gods," the Giantsbabe story).

I wonder if Mance and Tormund are two pieces in a game played by the Cold Gods and the Old Gods.

[Scorched_Air]

Skins, are you saying Old Gods = Cold Gods?

That makes no sense, even weirwood trees need some warmth.

Nothing can survive in the eternal night.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Skins, are you saying Old Gods = Cold Gods?

That makes no sense, even weirwood trees need some warmth.

Nothing can survive in the eternal night.

No, I'm staying they are different, but are fighting over the same people.

[Frey family reunion]

First off, excellent post, I'm not sure how this has stayed off my radar for so long.

Secondly, I've been thinking a lot about Tormund and his possible place in story:

1. I too think that Father to Hosts may be a significant title. There are two definitions that may be significant in this title. The first is the definition of host as an "army". Derived from the Latin "hostis" meaning enemy. The second is the ecclesiastical use of Host the only time that the word requires being capitalized. This is the Host that every good catholic boy and girl would have been taught, the Host as the body of Christ in his role as a sacrifice. Derived from the Latin "hostia" which means sacrifice.
Now take both meaning together: Tormund the Father of an army created from a sacrifice. This brings to mind Craster and "Craster's Children". One of the predominate theories is that Craster's children are being sacraficed to create new White Walkers (a theory recently bolstered in the HBO show). Perhaps Craster is not the only source of children to create White Walkers.

2. Tormund's golden rune engraved arm bands.
Tormund's description from ASOS:

Beside the brazier, a short but immensely broad man sat on a stool, eating a hen off a skewer. Hot grease was running down his chin and into his snow-white beard, but he smiled happily all the same. Thick gold bands graven with runes bound his massive arms, and he wore a heavy shirt of black ringmail that could only have come from a dead ranger.

These bands are again referenced when Tormund finally comes south of the Wall and bends the knee to Jon:

The wildling pulled off the band from his left arm and tossed it at Jon, then did the same with its twin upon his right. "Your first payment. Had those from my father and him from his. Now they're yours, you thieving black bastard."
The armbands were old gold, solid and heavy, engraved with the ancient runes of the First Men. Tormund Giantsbane had worn them as long as Jon had known him; they had seemed as much a part of him as his beard.

We see other characters with similar ornamentation: first Craster from ACOK:

Craster's sheepskin jerkin and cloak of sewn skins made a shabby contrast, but around one thick wrist was a heavy ring that had the glint of gold.

And later from ASOS

Craster owned but one chair. He sat in it, clad in a sleeveless sheepskin jerkin. His thick arms were covered with white hair and about one wrist was a twisted ring of gold.

And then we learn that Varamyr had a pair given to him by Mance Rayder:

His sleeping pelts and woolen smallclothes, his sheepskin boots and fur-lined gloves, his store of mead and hoarded food, the hanks of hair he took from the women he bedded, even the golden arm rings Mance had given him, all lost and left behind.

So we have a particular ornament all worn by Tormund, Craster, and Varamyr. I'm taking Tormund at his word that his bands were worn by his father and grandfather. My guess is both Varamyr and Craster were given theirs by Mance later as a sort of pale imitation of Tormund's. This is just a guess, but I wonder if these bands are a sign that Varamyr and Craster along with Tormund might have the proper bloodlines to father children that can be used by the White Walkers as proper sacrifices or if not that then some type of ward or protection agains the White Walkers.

3. Tormund, like Bloodraven, is another analog to Odin? Tormund seems to be another possible reference to the All Father, Odin. Bloodraven's parallels to Odin are definitely more pronounced. Both have one eye, sit from a throne that allow them to see the entire realm and both have Ravens which provide them with information.

But there are parallels to Tormund and Odin as well. To start with both wear a unique golden armband. Odin's golden arm band is named Draupnir and it every nine days it can create a perfect replica of itself. (perhaps analagous to the White Walker's making a clone of themselves using sacrafices from Tormund?).
The next thing they have in common is their multitude of titles. Odin has Tormund beat in this department but both are known by their numerous titles.

Thus to summarize Bloodraven has the eye, the ravens and the throne, Thormund has the arm bands, the snow white beard, the titles and perhaps the Hall. The only thing really missing between the two of them is Odin's famed spear.

[TheWanderer]

She got a little cold touch in the North and her eyes went blue.

Dunno if this has been mentioned in the thread before, but to medieval people blue and grey were basically the same thing with regard to eye colour.

I do agree that there is something weird about Val and her power over Jon. Val even has weird pwoer over Stannis (why is he so intent on having her be Lady of Winterfell?) and she has a weird power over Ser Patrick. It is similar to Gilly's weird power over Sam and Ramsay's mother's power over Roose.

In all of these situations, men do things that are way out of character and way out of their best interest for a woman they hardly know. Are people that horny in Westeros?

Val's a hottie in a place with very, very few women. But she's not just a hottie, she's proper and educated in a way very, very few wildlings are. Plus she's got a tenuous connection to Mance. I don't see it as out of character at all for Jon to be nice to her, since he's generally pretty nice to people, ladies and wildlings. I don't see it as out of character for Stannis to want to use her, since she's as close as the wildlings come to nobility, it's definitely in his best interest. I don't see it as out of character that Ser Patrick wants to bang her, since she's a hottie.

Also, Gilly's like the first girl Sam's seen in ages, possibly the first non-related girl he's ever really spoken to since he matured. Plus she likes him, his interest in her in hardly out-of-character. And I dunno why you think it's out of character for Roose to rape a woman.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Dunno if this has been mentioned in the thread before, but to medieval people blue and grey were basically the same thing with regard to eye colour.

Val's a hottie in a place with very, very few women. But she's not just a hottie, she's proper and educated in a way very, very few wildlings are. Plus she's got a tenuous connection to Mance. I don't see it as out of character at all for Jon to be nice to her, since he's generally pretty nice to people, ladies and wildlings. I don't see it as out of character for Stannis to want to use her, since she's as close as the wildlings come to nobility, it's definitely in his best interest. I don't see it as out of character that Ser Patrick wants to bang her, since she's a hottie.

Also, Gilly's like the first girl Sam's seen in ages, possibly the first non-related girl he's ever really spoken to since he matured. Plus she likes him, his interest in her in hardly out-of-character. And I dunno why you think it's out of character for Roose to rape a woman.

Jon's actions are crazy. Stannis told Jon to specifically keep Val at the Wall and Jon let her go range. This was by threat of execution! Jon could have sent anyone else. Any other Wildling or any other crow, but he sends Val, the one person who Stannis told him to keep.

Stannis' actions are crazy. Stannis insists on marrying Val to the Lord of Winterfell. In fact, he names men who don't want to marry Val, but who would if Stannis commanded them. Why? Why would a Wildling unite the North? Why is she so important to his Northern strategy?

Roose's actions are crazy. Roose rapes a woman he says he doesn't find attractive and kills her husband. Then, she shows up with a baby and demands that Roose support her. And he does!

Ser Patrick's actions are crazy. Ser Patrick tries to take Val at, honestly, the worst possible moment. He is a knight and his job is to protect Shireen. If he wanted Val so bad, he could have tried for her after the Wildlings left.

[Bael's Bastard]

Yeah, but this was not an accident… he may say it was an accident for now, to hide what is going on, but it was no accident...

And you base these assumptions on what?

[Amoracchius]

And you base these assumptions on what?

I hate to be so negative, but ATS isn't basing that on anything. At this point, I'm utterly convinced he is a troll who enjoys confounding people with nonsensical theories and rude assertions about what will happen in the text.

[Frey family reunion]

I hate to be so negative, but ATS isn't basing that on anything. At this point, I'm utterly convinced he is a troll who enjoys confounding people with nonsensical theories and rude assertions about what will happen in the text.

I think he's correct on the issue of the eye color. Val's eyes are described in ACOK

Val looked at him with pale grey eyes,

Then in ADWD

Val stood beside him, tall and fair. They had crowned her with a simple circlet of dark bronze, yet she looked more regal in bronze than Stannis did in gold. Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching.

Later in the same book she returns from her journey north of the Wall and her appearance including her eye color has changed

Val was clad all in white; white woolen breeches tucked into high boots of bleached white leather, white bearskin cloak pinned at the shoulder with a carved weirwood face, white tunic with bone fastenings. Her breath was shite as well... but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks blushed red from the cold.

And as for the argument that grey eyes and blue eyes are essentially the same, in AFOF, Aeron Damphair specifically indicates just how unusual this change in eye color is

The Farwynds there were even queerer than the rest. Some said they were skinchangers, unholy creatures who could take on the form of sea lions, walruses, even spotted whales, the wolves of the wild sea....

His [Lord Gylbert Farwynd} eyes, Aeron saw, were now grey, now blue, as changeable as the seas. Mad eyes, he thought, fool's eyes.