Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

[Amoracchius]

I think he's correct on the issue of the eye color. Val's eyes are described in ACOK

Then in ADWD

Later in the same book she returns from her journey north of the Wall and her appearance including her eye color has changed

And as for the argument that grey eyes and blue eyes are essentially the same, in AFOF, Aeron Damphair specifically indicates just how unusual this change in eye color is

I don't deny that the eye color changed. That has been well established. What is at issue is whether that is significant. As I pointed out in my earlier posts in this thread, GRRM has repeatedly said that changes in eye color within the text were mistakes that he regrets. ATS says that in this case it wasn't. I choose to believe the author of the books.

[Frey family reunion]

I don't deny that the eye color changed. That has been well established. What is at issue is whether that is significant. As I pointed out in my earlier posts in this thread, GRRM has repeatedly said that changes in eye color within the text were mistakes that he regrets. ATS says that in this case it wasn't. I choose to believe the author of the books.

GRRM has always been coy about the change in eye color. I doubt that you can actually find an instance where he specifically says that a particular change in eye color is a mistake on his part. He's said things along the lines of never being able to keep certain things like eye color straight ect. The problem with GRRM addressing this is he is trying to create a subtle clue in his books about a character. It doesn't stay subtle if he draws attantion to it by admitting that it is a plot point when he is being interviewed.

But having a character's eye color change is not unusual in mythology. In fact the god Loki was known in several of the mythological stories as having his eyes change color. My guess is GRRM is taking his inspiration from this.

I think if there were any question at all about whether this was an intentional change on the part of the author, then the Damphair's comments about eyes changing from grey to blue and the meaning thereof ends this debate. This was obviously an intentional change on the part of the author.

[Mithras]

I don't deny that the eye color changed. That has been well established. What is at issue is whether that is significant. As I pointed out in my earlier posts in this thread, GRRM has repeatedly said that changes in eye color within the text were mistakes that he regrets. ATS says that in this case it wasn't. I choose to believe the author of the books.

The only mistake GRRM made with eye colors is about Renly. I don't know any other case.

[Frey family reunion]

The only mistake GRRM made with eye colors is about Renly. I don't know any other case.

And I'm not completely sure that this is an "intentional" mistake on the author's part or not. It took place during Sansa's POV, and the author may be trying very subtly to tell us that Sansa's POV can not be trusted (at least for those that she has her girlish crushes on). She also describes Loras as having golden eyes when in fact his eyes are plain old brown.

However, Sansa's POV repeteadly has her describing Petyr's eyes correctly: grey-green. This may be the author telling us that Sansa has no illusions about Petyre and she sees him for who he truly is.

[TheWanderer]

GRRM has always been coy about the change in eye color. I doubt that you can actually find an instance where he specifically says that a particular change in eye color is a mistake on his part.

Well I guess the thing to do would be to go through the books and see how many times a characters eyes 'change' colour (not that I'm actually suggesting you do that, it's just the only way to be sure). AFIAK it only happens twice so the fact that GRRM talks about messing up eye colours (plural) suggests that both are included. It's not necessarily the case but lying isn't being coy. If you plant a hint you want people to pick up on then you don't outright dismiss it when they do.

I think if there were any question at all about whether this was an intentional change on the part of the author, then the Damphair's comments about eyes changing from grey to blue and the meaning thereof ends this debate. This was obviously an intentional change on the part of the author.

Damphair points out a completely mundane man whose eyes change from grey to blue (and back) without any influence from the White Walkers. This plays directly into the idea that eye colour can 'change' depending on how it's looked at, particularly in the case of colours that are already very similar in eyes such as blue and grey. People's eyes change colour all the time depending on a huge number of factors, many of which are more in the eyes of the beholder.

Also, note how much more in depth Jon's description of her is when he sees her eyes as blue. Firstly, note that he doesn't react to her eyes having changed colour, Jon certainly knows the significance of blue eyes. Secondly, he just seems way more into her and just like Sansa changes Loras' eyes from boring-brown to sexy-gold Jon changes Val's eyes from cold-grey to sexy-blue.

[Frey family reunion]

Well I guess the thing to do would be to go through the books and see how many times a characters eyes 'change' colour (not that I'm actually suggesting you do that, it's just the only way to be sure). AFIAK it only happens twice so the fact that GRRM talks about messing up eye colours (plural) suggests that both are included. It's not necessarily the case but lying isn't being coy. If you plant a hint you want people to pick up on then you don't outright dismiss it when they do.

Damphair points out a completely mundane man whose eyes change from grey to blue (and back) without any influence from the White Walkers. This plays directly into the idea that eye colour can 'change' depending on how it's looked at, particularly in the case of colours that are already very similar in eyes such as blue and grey. People's eyes change colour all the time depending on a huge number of factors, many of which are more in the eyes of the beholder.

Also, note how much more in depth Jon's description of her is when he sees her eyes as blue. Firstly, note that he doesn't react to her eyes having changed colour, Jon certainly knows the significance of blue eyes. Secondly, he just seems way more into her and just like Sansa changes Loras' eyes from boring-brown to sexy-gold Jon changes Val's eyes from cold-grey to sexy-blue.

Actually I know exactly how many times: four.

The two in Sansa's point of view that I've mentioned. Val's change in eye color, and then Qyburn's eyes change from brown when he is treating Jaime's stump to blue when he is dealing with Cersei at Queen's Landing.

This doesn't take into account eye changes that are knowlingly glamor related like when Mance's eyes kept turning from grey to brown as he flickered between himself and his Rattleshirt glamor.

We really dont' know that the Farwynds are "mundane" as you put it. In fact they may very well be skinchangers as their reputations suggest. But the main point is GRRM chose to highlight this specific change in eye color in the text and have one of his characters draw a conclusion from it. This in my mind suggests that when GRRM went from describing Val's eyes from grey to blue he did so knowingly. Now the reason behind it is obviously not known at this time but I don't believe that this was a mistake on the author's part.

ETA: and I've never suggested that the change in eye color is White Walker related. My assumption is that this may be a subtle glamor on the part of Val and/or Qyburn for the purpose of subtly manipulating whe people they are dealing with at the time. But this is obviously just a guess at this time.

[bemused]

Well ,I absolutely don't see the change in eye colour for Val as any kind of connection to the Others. ( I know, what a surprise ;) ) It could be a mistake , it could be the way blue eyes can look more grey or blue depending on the surroundings and I wouldn't even rule out , as Ffr suggests, that Val may be able to cast a mild glamour.. But there's nothing unearthly or ominous in her eyes' description , as there is with the wights or the Others.

Here's from AGoT , prologue..

Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. ( an Other)

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

Next, from the discovery of the bodies of Othor and Jafer , and during Jon's fight with Othor's wight...

The old forester peered down suspiciously. “And might be I’m a fool, but I don’t know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore.”

Ser Jaremy looked startled. “Neither did Flowers,” he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

...their eyes just seem like human blue eyes when they're not animated.. except these men never had blue eyes. But when Othor becomes animated, later...

The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning.

Here's from ASoS, the escape from the fist.. the dead bear's eyes and the horde of wights...

Only its eyes lived. Bright blue, just as Jon said. They shone like frozen stars. ( the bear)

They plunged down the hillside at a run, through clutching black hands and burning blue eyes and blowing snow.

In ADWD , Jon sees Val as beautiful , but her eyes are simply human - they don't burn , there's nothing unusual about the pupils.Here's Blue-eyed Val ...

Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Val by Moonlight...

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

Although her eyes aren't mentioned , this quote , with it's vague similarity to the Night's King's Queen has caused some to want to connect Val to the Others, in some way ... for me, it creates room for doubt that the Night's King's bride was an Other. ( As I've said before ). ...This is a first hand description from Jon's POV . The Night's King is a very old story that may have been designed to suit the tellers. We shouldn't forget that history is written by the victors.

Grey-eyed Val ... from ASoS..inside Mance's tent before the battle...

Val looked at him with pale grey eyes.

from ADWD ...

Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

This is on the Occasion of "Mance's" execution and the wildlings being forced to kneel to Stannis ...and to quote Dolorous Edd..

Aye, we hacked their gods apart and made them burn the pieces, but we gave them onion soup. What’s a god compared to a nice bowl of onion soup?

I think if it should turn out that Val can cast a glamour this would be where we see it . It must be terribly painful to see her people brought to such a sad pass , and she would need to hide her grief , anger ..you name it.. Grey eyes could be one effect of hiding her emotions...or it could be the weather , the light , or Jon's distance from her, etc. ..or like the Farwynds , her eyes could be changeable ... I'm sure an answer will be coming.

Jon's actions are crazy. Stannis told Jon to specifically keep Val at the Wall and Jon let her go range. This was by threat of execution! Jon could have sent anyone else. Any other Wildling or any other crow, but he sends Val, the one person who Stannis told him to keep.

Stannis' actions are crazy. Stannis insists on marrying Val to the Lord of Winterfell. In fact, he names men who don't want to marry Val, but who would if Stannis commanded them. Why? Why would a Wildling unite the North? Why is she so important to his Northern strategy?

Roose's actions are crazy. Roose rapes a woman he says he doesn't find attractive and kills her husband. Then, she shows up with a baby and demands that Roose support her. And he does!

Ser Patrick's actions are crazy. Ser Patrick tries to take Val at, honestly, the worst possible moment. He is a knight and his job is to protect Shireen. If he wanted Val so bad, he could have tried for her after the Wildlings left.

Jon's actions aren't crazy, but he is taking a calculated risk ( No risk , no gain). Stannis has threatened to behead him before , and Jon's still standing. Jon must have spoken to Mance before he left on his mission. He must have spoken to Val before hers. He obviously must have learned enough to believe that Val could find Tormund and bring him to negotiate , if anybody could...If Val is successful, Stannis would be unlikely to want to behead Jon , and as it turns out , should he wish to do so when he returns, he'd be greatly outnumbered by the opposition.

Stannis' actions aren't crazy , he's trying to plan ahead.. All three men - Jon, Stannis and Mance want more wildlings south of the wall for their own reasons. Assuming they succeed, a greatly respected wildling woman ..(a princess in Stannis' view ) .. married to a Stannis-friendly Lord of Winterfell ,could help ease the assimilation of the Free Folk into the North, saving lives and strife.

( Roose is for another topic ;) )

Ser Patrek's actions aren't crazy, just stupid and grasping. Actually he has no way of knowing that his timing is the worst possible.. he probably thinks it's the best time, because Jon and a great many of the men are otherwise occupied. He thinks if he marries the Wildling Princess , Stannis will settle a suitably large castle and lands on him. Selyse has encouraged him to think so.. He's not under some weird spell of Val's .. he's influenced by Selyse ..how bright is that ?

[addicted to snow]

Once again, I'm glad to hear that you have the ability to read GRRM's mind and that you know what he means better than he does.

Seriously, ATS, I've seen you use logic and evidence to make a point so I know you're capable of it. Please, stop with these platitude spouting, "You're wrong because I said so," posts. Make a reasoned argument and participate in the discussion, don't just assert your ideas as fact.

Just think a little bit… It is not that difficult to figure out...

[Black Crow]

Well ,I absolutely don't see the change in eye colour for Val as any kind of connection to the Others. ( I know, what a surprise ;) ) It could be a mistake , it could be the way blue eyes can look more grey or blue depending on the surroundings and I wouldn't even rule out , as Ffr suggests, that Val may be able to cast a mild glamour.. But there's nothing unearthly or ominous in her eyes' description , as there is with the wights or the Others.

Here's from AGoT , prologue..

Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. ( an Other)

Will rose. Ser Waymar Royce stood over him.

His fine clothes were a tatter, his face a ruin. A shard from his sword transfixed the blind white pupil of his left eye. The right eye was open. The pupil burned blue. It saw.

Next, from the discovery of the bodies of Othor and Jafer , and during Jon's fight with Othor's wight...

The old forester peered down suspiciously. “And might be I’m a fool, but I don’t know that Othor never had no blue eyes afore.”

Ser Jaremy looked startled. “Neither did Flowers,” he blurted, turning to stare at the dead man.

...their eyes just seem like human blue eyes when they're not animated.. except these men never had blue eyes. But when Othor becomes animated, later...

The sword laid the intruder open to the bone, taking off half his nose and opening a gash cheek to cheek under those eyes, eyes, eyes like blue stars burning.

Here's from ASoS, the escape from the fist.. the dead bear's eyes and the horde of wights...

Only its eyes lived. Bright blue, just as Jon said. They shone like frozen stars. ( the bear)

They plunged down the hillside at a run, through clutching black hands and burning blue eyes and blowing snow.

In ADWD , Jon sees Val as beautiful , but her eyes are simply human - they don't burn , there's nothing unusual about the pupils.Here's Blue-eyed Val ...

Her breath was white as well … but her eyes were blue, her long braid the color of dark honey, her cheeks flushed red from the cold. It had been a long while since Jon Snow had seen a sight so lovely.

Val by Moonlight...

The light of the half-moon turned Val’s honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

Although her eyes aren't mentioned , this quote , with it's vague similarity to the Night's King's Queen has caused some to want to connect Val to the Others, in some way ... for me, it creates room for doubt that the Night's King's bride was an Other. ( As I've said before ). ...This is a first hand description from Jon's POV . The Night's King is a very old story that may have been designed to suit the tellers. We shouldn't forget that history is written by the victors.

Grey-eyed Val ... from ASoS..inside Mance's tent before the battle...

Val looked at him with pale grey eyes.

from ADWD ...

Her eyes were grey and fearless, unflinching. Beneath an ermine cloak, she wore white and gold. Her honey-blond hair had been done up in a thick braid that hung over her right shoulder to her waist. The chill in the air had put color in her cheeks.

In complete agreement as I've said before - and the ultimate test is that neither Jon who got up close and personal with Othor, nor Tormund, whose own son "turned" regard her eyes as in any way unusual. I'll also add that my mother's eyes could be either grey or blue according to the light.

[ladyinblack]

on Val's eyecolor, my father has grey eyes that are blue when he wears blue or white & change in hue according to mood. When he is angry --they are stone grey

My eyes are brown but are golden when I wear certain colors so I don't think Loras eye color or Val's are relevant to the story

I have been trying to catch up with all the posts ..

agree with Bemused on the old gods connection & that Tormund & Val are significant here

Bemused, I really enjoy your analysis

[Ghost's Shadow]

Thank you for that, Bemused! It seems to be much needed to write out that no one, whether Wildling, Night's Watchman, Queen's man, Giant, wetnurse, and all other people around Val, has noticed this 'Val turned into an Other/Wight because she seems to have blue eyes now' when a good chunk of those would know well enough what she'd be since they've seen and killed it before. As said by Black Crow, Tormund had to kill his own Wight son (blue eyes) and doesn't panic at the sight of Val.

So basically everyone would have to be suddenly stupid. Come on.

Also, whether Val and Jon will ever sleep together or will even get married, I do not know. No one really does. But I highly DOUBT if they don't it would be because Dunk likely didn't get to sleep with Tanselle either.

[Mithras]

For me, it is not only about the eye color change. After her return, we see a significant character change.

[bemused]

Thanks, ladyinblack. ( blush)

Paper Waver... I don't think we see a character change ,it's just that not much of her character had been revealed up until that point ( and still hasn't , really). We've only been able to see her through Jon's and Sam's POVs and the only real time conversations with her come through Jon's.

Though Jon lived and traveled with the wildlings and knows they worship the Old Gods , he's never witnessed any religious ceremony, or discussed their religion in depth with any of them. He's become increasingly thoughtful and sincere in his own reverence but really only knows what he observed in Ned's practice.

Even though he must have had conversations with Mance and Val that we haven't seen , if Val has some religious or semi-religious function , it hasn't been spelled out for him ( probably to protect Val from Mel ) and he doesn't know their culture well enough to be able to add all the signs up.

We see the same flirtatious banter from her when she leaves and when she returns.

[Mithras]

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

I think this is kind of the foreshadowing GRRM likes to make.

:)

[bemused]

Paper Waver.. Yes, but I don't think that's a change in character , just a part of her character that had not been revealed to Jon. And I don't necessarily take it as a negative . Whether she's ultimately proven right or wrong about how the disease acts north of the wall , it shows her concern for the people as a whole.

Something Else...

I've said this elsewhere, but seem to have overlooked developing it fully on the thread I started.. ;) D'oh! I'll try to be succinct..

When Kings are going into battle , they naturally give some thought to their succession , since they might die. Robb wants Jon to succeed him . Stannis , in the Theon TWoW chapter

gives explicit instructions to Massey about Shireen.

.

Mance won his kingship and takes his rule seriously - it hasn't all been for his own self-aggrandisement. He is the glue holding the many disparate wildling "tribes" together. Without him, they would probably revert to an assortment of competing factions and thus be more vulnerable to the Others. His son cannot follow him.

I know I've speculated somewhere upthread that Val ( in her Vala-like ways) had probably seen Jarl as Mance to her Dalla , and now may think Jon should be Jarl's replacement... Now I think that Val/Jarl was probably Mance's vision too, and his plan for his succession...Since I think Mance was helped by Dalla in his campaign to rule , I think Mance's vision was Mance/Dalla followed ( with any luck) by Jarl/Val.

The clue lies in the fact that though Mance first calls Jarl Val's pet , Styr later refers to Jarl as Mance's pet.

Mance grew up in the NW, and would be very familiar with the NW practise of singling out likely young men and grooming them for leadership (e.g. by appointing them to Commander's or Lord Commander's stewards ) .Come time for a choosing , this should provide the Watch with worthy candidates. I think Mance was trying to adapt this practice for the Free Folk. Yes , his chosen successor would still have to win his kingship, but he'd be fully aware of how Mance managed to do it ,when no-one else had for so long ..and he (Jarl) would already have won some renown by virtue of the assignments Mance had given him.

The Wall itself ( the magic in the wall ? ) ended that plan by shaking Jarl off "as a dog would shake off fleas." ( rough quote). The wall didn't shake Jon off ,and Jon was a much less skilled climber.

Val seems to have settled on Jon as successor and though I doubt Val and Mance can have had a chance to meet privately and discuss matters , I think she and Mance are on the same page. Jon must have got the idea that Val should act as his envoy to Tormund from somewhere, and I think it can only have been from Mance. Whether or not Jon told Val outright that Mance was alive , Val would know that at some point , Mance must have given Jon the idea.

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

Val seems to have settled on Jon as successor and though I doubt Val and Mance can have had a chance to meet privately and discuss matters , I think she and Mance are on the same page. Jon must have got the idea that Val should act as his envoy to Tormund from somewhere, and I think it can only have been from Mance. Whether or not Jon told Val outright that Mance was alive , Val would know that at some point , Mance must have given Jon the idea.

I would put the chances that Val and Mance met post-Wildling Submission Ceremony as pretty high.

Mance bragged to Jon about how he can climb in towers and Val knows what Mel sees in her flames (who would tell her other than Mance?). Not to mention, Val volunteered to range north of the Wall to find Tormund, which is what Mance asked to do to over and over as Rattleshirt.

Jon being groomed for Wildling leadership, though? Jon isn't there and I don't think he ever will be. Jon is a fundamentally a kneeler and Wildlings don't kneel ever.

[bemused]

I would put the chances that Val and Mance met post-Wildling Submission Ceremony as pretty high.

Mance bragged to Jon about how he can climb in towers and Val knows what Mel sees in her flames (who would tell her other than Mance?). Not to mention, Val volunteered to range north of the Wall to find Tormund, which is what Mance asked to do to over and over as Rattleshirt.

Jon being groomed for Wildling leadership, though? Jon isn't there and I don't think he ever will be. Jon is a fundamentally a kneeler and Wildlings don't kneel ever.

I know you would.. but I wouldn't put the chance of Mance and Val being able to meet privately very high at all. I think it would be next to impossible .Val and the baby are well guarded in the King's Tower , with Stannis and Mel. I'm sure Stannis has sentries posted, and the NW has their own watch duty.

I don't think your post is really entirely honest ,or at least it's misleading. Mance asked to range over and over? I know of two mentions..once when Stannis gives "Rattleshirt" to Jon...

“I’ll range for you, bastard,” Rattleshirt declared. “I’ll give you sage counsel or sing you pretty songs, as you prefer. I’ll even fight for you. Just don’t ask me to wear your cloak.”

...and once more, in Mel's chambers.. and I suppose this is what you mean by Mance bragging about climbing towers ? If there's some other quote I've missed , can you tell me where ?

“I could visit you as easily, my lord. Those guards at your door are a bad jape. A man who has climbed the Wall half a hundred times can climb in a window easy enough. But what good would come of killing you? The crows would only choose someone worse.” He chewed, swallowed. “I heard about your rangers. You should have sent me with them.”

In the first quote, Mance is giving Jon a series of very broad hints to his real identity. He's been a ranger . He has given Jon sage counsel (he and Dalla have) and Jon has seen Mance taking counsel with other wildling leaders in his tent... Stannis is about to ask Jon's counsel .... As LC Jon tries to seek counsel from those around him ,but none is forthcoming ( not sage anyway ). ... It's a service to Kings , Lords and Lord Commanders from their lords/officers.. and Mance is offering it....Jon has heard him sing and he knows Mance has used the disguise of a singer. He told Jon the story of his cloak and gave it as his reason for leaving the watch ( big clue)... but..He'll even fight for Jon? This one is very interesting because if Jon does put it together that he's Mance.. they both know that wildlings only agree to follow and fight for a strong leader .Jon has command of the Wall and can command the NW , but a wildling has to agree..or in this case , volunteer... Mance knows Jon would never send Rattleshirt ranging , as Jon has just told Stannis , right in front of Mance (RS).

The second quote is largely a warning to Jon. Don't forget he's just told Mel about overhearing Bowen &co.. Jon's guards are a joke and he could get in Jon's window..which is at ground level.. blacksmith's forges are not located up in towers. What good would come of killing you? -He doesn't want to kill Jon , but someone else might.. and that would be a bad thing. The crows would only choose someone worse . This is a backhanded way of saying Jon is the best choice for LC...Of course, Mance is still "Rattleshirt" and he would never pay Jon a compliment...You should have sent me with them.. Again a hint - he knows Jon wouldn't and shouldn't .. Mance wouldn't trust Rattleshirt ,himself...as he has just told Mel.

So these were never serious requests to go ranging.

Mance takes on the Arya mission knowing if it ever becomes known, the wildlings would see he was the one being sent on a foray by Jon , just as Mance used to send out others. Mance's plan failed. Many died. The only way he could get them through the wall was by kneeling to Stannis. Jon is giving them a way through without kneeling. They see him contravening Stannis' conditions. And in the shieldhall Tormund says Jon has won them to him.

Wildlings may not kneel , but Morna ,who may have some visions herself ( being a witch ), kissed his hand and swore to be his man or his woman , as he chose. That's not physically kneeling , but it's fealty.

Val may herself "see" some of what Mel sees in her flames.. But the gossip about Mel's visions , and King's Blood and dragons , etc. has been all over Castle Black since she arrived.Everyone's heard the gossip. Mance wouldn't have to risk his life scaling the King's Tower and climbing in her window to tell her... And Mel would never tell Mance if she saw anything about the baby switch.. His son is Stannis' hostage for Mance's good behaviour.

[Mithras]

“You know nothing, Jon Snow. A true man steals a woman from afar, t’ strengthen the clan. Women who bed brothers or fathers or clan kin offend the gods, and are cursed with weak and sickly children. Even monsters.”

“Gilly’s son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells.”

As we see, Craster’s boy is neither weak nor sickly. According to Ygritte, this makes him a monster.

“Roose Bolton’s cold and cunning, aye, but a man can deal with Roose. We’ve all known worse. But this bastard son of his … they say he’s mad and cruel, a monster.”

“A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get.”

Ramsay is called a monster even as a baby.

“Only for a time. You will return. For the boy, if for no other reason.”

“Craster’s son?” Val shrugged. “He is no kin to me.”

“I have heard you singing to him.”

“I was singing to myself. Am I to blame if he listens?” A faint smile brushed her lips. “It makes him laugh. Oh, very well. He is a sweet little monster.”

“Monster?”

“His milk name. I had to call him something.”

Val is singing to Craster’s boy. She has to call him something so she chooses monster as a milkname. That is very strange considering that Val’s lore is probably way better than Ygritte’s. Val also used once or twice the famous sentence of Ygritte about the ignorance of Jon.

The Norrey woman was forty, with the biggest breasts Jon Snow had ever seen. The Flint girl was fourteen and flat-chested as a boy, though she did not lack for milk. Between the two of them, the child Val called Monster seemed to be thriving.

“How fares the little monster?”

“Twice as big as when you left us, and thrice as loud. When he wants the teat, you can hear him wail in Eastwatch.”

I can. You know nothing, Jon Snow.” Val seized his arm. “I want the monster out of there. Him and his wet nurses. You cannot leave them in that same tower as the dead girl.”

“I brought you Tormund Giantsbane. Bring me my monster.”

“Where can I find Toregg?”

“With the little monster, like as not. He’s taken a liking to one o’ them milkmaids, I hear.”

He has taken a liking to Val. Her sister was a queen, why not her? Tormund had once thought to make himself the King-Beyond-the-Wall, before Mance had bested him. Toregg the Tall might well be dreaming the same dream. Better him than Gerrick Kingsblood.

Here we see that Val shows a strange affinity to the monster. Also the true intentions of Toregg might not be as Jon suspects.

“If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman.”

“A northman.” Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace.

The Karstark Jon preferred over Massey and Horpe is a traitor. Is there something wrong with Toregg whom Jon preferred over Gerrick Kingsblood?

[Skinchanging Sweetrobin]

“Where can I find Toregg?”

“With the little monster, like as not. He’s taken a liking to one o’ them milkmaids, I hear.”

He has taken a liking to Val. Her sister was a queen, why not her? Tormund had once thought to make himself the King-Beyond-the-Wall, before Mance had bested him. Toregg the Tall might well be dreaming the same dream. Better him than Gerrick Kingsblood.

Here we see that Val shows a strange affinity to the monster. Also the true intentions of Toregg might not be as Jon suspects.

“If it gives you any solace, Horpe and Massey are doomed to disappointment. I am more inclined to bestow Winterfell upon Arnolf Karstark. A good northman.”

“A northman.” Better a Karstark than a Bolton or a Greyjoy, Jon told himself, but the thought gave him little solace.

The Karstark Jon preferred over Massey and Horpe is a traitor. Is there something wrong with Toregg whom Jon preferred over Gerrick Kingsblood?

I agree with you that Jon's preference for Toregg over Gerrick comes out of nowhere. As does his original love of Mance and Tormund.

Tormund and his family are not to be trusted, but Jon (and most readers) and endeared to him. And Jon is endeared to him (and Mance) quite early. Late in ASoS, Jon calls them honorable, but not Rattleshirt. Now, I have no idea what Jon is basing Mance and Tormund's honor on, but Jon likes them. Besides Tormund's dick jokes, Mance singing the Dornishman's Wife and Mance's insane cloak story, we don't have much to go on.

[Amoracchius]

“It is not always mortal in children.”

“North of the Wall it is. Hemlock is a sure cure, but a pillow or a blade will work as well. If I had given birth to that poor child, I would have given her the gift of mercy long ago.”

This was a Val that Jon had never seen before. “Princess Shireen is the queen’s only child.”

“I pity both of them. The child is not clean.”

I think this is kind of the foreshadowing GRRM likes to make.

:)

I don't think that necessarily represents a large change in Val's character. As other posters have said, we really haven't seen much of Val, so it's hard to say if she's suddenly changed or if this is just a part of her personality that hadn't been observed before. Moreover, I think a lot of people have subjects that get them particularly heated. My politically conservative uncle is almost always an extremely pleasant and genial man, but mention the estate tax to him, and suddenly he's red in the face and shouting. Perhaps greyscale is just one of those subjects for Val. For me, the bigger takeaway from this scene is that greyscale may be a more serious threat than those south of the Wall are treating it.