Tormund and Val ; Jon's Intermediaries to the Old Gods ?

[Mrs.Grumpy]

Perfect !!

[Har!]

Just found this wonderful thread, thanks bemused.

a couple notes:

1) hostility between ghost and barroq's boar fits into a book-wide set of hostilities btn pigs/boars and dogs/wolves, most notably btn the crakehall (brindled boar sigil) freys (fat walda, little walder, hosteen) and ramsey (who is closest to his bitches). There is also the theme of strongboar seeking to hunt down the 'hound,' again in protection of another crakehall frey - gatehouse ami. Bram Vras explores this in his Huis Clos analysis http://branvras.free.fr/HuisClos/Animals.html

2) i am very impressed w the Val as priestess analysis, she does know more than she ought and she appears to be reverenced by other wildlings. They don't kneel to her naturally, but she appears educated in lore that the rest of Westeros has forgotten.

I am also struck by the parallelism btw the red mask of Quaithe of Asshai and Morna Whitemask, the white of Val's 'priestly' costume and the red of Melisandre... I am sure others could supply similar instances of parallels. GRRM seems to like to set up these parallels. Wonder what they might signify in this case, the obvious guess would be the great rahloo vs the old gods?

[lostinwesteros]

I am utterly amazed at this brilliant thread! Makes it obvious to me that I am just a kindergarten pupil, if that, at this level of knowledge, much less at how it applies to ADWD. Awesome! Thank you, bemused and other posters.

[JungWheats]

Mel possibly has a somewhat more refined technique than Thoros. Remember Thoros was a drunken sot for a long time, so he may have gone a but rusty on some of the finer points of resurrection technique.

I got the impression that Thoros didn't intentionally raise Beric the first time. He was performing a typical funeral rite and it happened to cause Thoros to rise. He kept repeating it because it kept working. First time...Big Surprise. Second time...Really Big Surprise...Third time...eh...the fight between Sandor and Beric seemed to be so rehearsed to me. Thoros had the procedure down. Beric does something ridiculous...Thoros administers the rite, Beric comes back. The specialness was in Beric, not Thoros.

[IRON BANK]

It will be quitee interesting to see what happens after Jon's stabbing considering Val is in the tower right by the incident.

[bbstark]

wow, what a great thread!

I wish there would be some indexing of gems like this, for newbies to read/stumble upon.

If possible I'd put a tag on this!

[Ghost's Shadow]

Val and Ghost just seem to be walking together naturally like two friends strolling along, and when Jon thinks they look like they belong together, perhaps, in a way they do. Not the same way that Jon and Ghost belong together, but still connected, in some way.

I've raised this in another thread, but didn't get any takers: is there any chance that Jon kind of, subconsciously, wanted to be where Ghost was, and that's why he was and stayed there for a bit longer than he was supposed to? :P

[three-eyed monkey]

Brillant OP and great thread too. Makes me look at Val in a whole new light and want to reread again, despite only just finishing a reread a few days back. Great work Bemused.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Cor, have LOVED reading this thread.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Fantastic thread, and I definitely think there is too much here to discount. Val was an amazing part of the series, and this adds more depth to her. I believe we have just begun to touch on the nature of the "gods" in the entire world, since we only now are gaining any perspective on the Red God (despite references from Jaquen, a lot more color from Thoros, and now the actual priests far east), and we are only now being directly connected with CotF, followers of the Old Gods, and information on how the weirwoods function. Jon says it early on, that Ghost is definitely of the Old Gods, due to his wise red eyes, but even then Jon doesn't really know what that means. I love Tormund, but if anything, his religious role would be more akin to Thoros (IMO), in that he is just who he is, and might not realize that he is an instrument of a greater power. I also am curious about the whole bear/relationship situation - I do recall a Mormount (Maege) being pretty defiant with Asha about rapers and pillagers - but as I think about it now, she had more hostility to the Ironborn than to the Wildings...

[bemused]

Thanks ,guys! ( I blush)

I'm so curious to see where GRRM takes this... It's one of my favorite obsessions. ;)

I feel hopeful for Jon because he is right outside Val's tower , but worried for Val , because while she obviously knows something about Mel ( and hints that she knows at least some of what Mel knows ) Mel hasn't seemed to have a whiff of Val's true nature , thus far. Val may have to reveal more about herself than she would like ,in order to help Jon.

And then there's Selyse the religious fanatic , who's dying to assert her queenly authority while Stannis is away. Although Mel might have a sense of "proceed with caution" because the wildlings outnumber everyone, I don't think Selyse is that bright.

ETA; Since starting this way back when , I've realized Val could have heard about Jarl. I was forgetting the guys in Styr's party who stayed North of the wall , to take the horses, etc.,( and a progress report ) back to Mance.

[Khal Shaggydog]

Also, a few random shoutouts on this thread: the name Mike Honcho! Brilliant. Also, the use of "titles, titles", which was one of the best King Rob moments in the show.

Jon always had an air of reverence around him, as do most of the Starks. The fact that keeping of the Old Gods in practice involves sitting in the Gods wood for an entire night, implies an awareness of silence, patience, nature and openness to spiritual influence akin to deep prayer, meditation or such. You can see the same type of awareness, or at the very least, respect, from Arya and Bran - they just seem to understand the concept of stillness as it related to clearing your head and righting yourself with the world. Given that there is no equivalent to the Septons teaching the ways of the Old Gods, it is understandable that Jon doesn't have a formalized understanding of how to communicate or fully appreciate the faith he was raised in, but I think it will definitely play a part going forward as we move towards a larger struggle with the hereto unknown Others. I think Val makes the most sense as a vehicle for this emerging awareness, along with Bran, and of course, Ghost. The more we see from Mel, the more it appears that she appears more confident in what she is doing than she actually is, and so we can expect her to engage in a form of learning as well.

[The Others Take Ya]

Awesome thread! I'm really looking forward to rereading chapters including Val now. I'm only about halfway through so far but I just wondered something and wanted to get it down before I forgot.

During the conversation that Mel has with Jon by the wall with Ghost present, Ghost seemingly seems to be friendly to Mel, which - of course - is strange. We know she seems to have glamoured Ygritte but perhaps at this point she's glamoured Val's appearance, and that's why Ghost seemed OK with her. She should have access to something Val possessed by this point, since Val and Mel arrived at the wall at approximately the same time, and if a condition of the truce after the battle was handing over all their possessions of value, perhaps Mel took something of hers that she could have used for a glamour.

Let the priestess catfight begin! I'm all for it! *mreow!!!*

edit: still reading... thought #2

bemused You had mentioned up thread that you hoped you would see other woods witches for comparison and I wanted to point out that perhaps the crones of Vaes Dothrak may count. They are absolutely very powerful priestesses in the story, and besides the prediction that one day the world would be covered in ghost grass, they have also predicted that the city will need to host all the khalassars one day, which reminded me of Winterfell and its winter town and how the city became a safe refuge for people in the winter. Also Dany remarks when she first arrives that it seems strange that the city needs a gate when its open all around, but what if the priestesses have wards around the area of the city? Something that the ghost grass/dead can't penetrate and the horse gate may function as a protected entrance way similar to the wall's black gate.

[Steve Moss II]

In many ways, Jon reminds me of a lighter, pseudo version of the Norse gods.

Jon's one raven and one wolf, is half of Odin's two ravens and two wolves.

Odin lost an eye to gain wisdom, while Jon received damage around his eye.

Tyr lost his hand to Fenris wolf, Jon has a burned scarred hand.

Assuming Odin equates to the Father and Tyr the Warrior, it seems like Jon straddles those two worlds.

I also like the theory that Val (Ice) and Mel (Fire) are the elements at play at the Wall, not Jon. Perhaps he's the song tieing Mel and Val's aspects together?

[Khal Shaggydog]

I also like the theory that Val (Ice) and Mel (Fire) are the elements at play at the Wall, not Jon. Perhaps he's the song tieing Mel and Val's aspects together?

Are you suggesting some kind of amazing three-way with Jon (and his wilding love skills)? It would probably get pretty kinky, given that Mel is an absolute freak, and Val is just straight up badass. But Jon better wrap it up - or he might end up with a terrifying shadow baby the next morning.

I don't think we can discount just how important it is that Jon has a strong relationship with both Ghost and Mormount's raven. He has an incredibly strong connection to nature, and is showing some of the deepest levels of self-assessment and self-examination in his relationships with others that we've seen in any characters.

[Steve Moss II]

Not really. I'm suggesting that there are commonalities between Jon and both Val and Mel.

Mel's blood smokes as does Jon's.

Val has some bond with Ghost as does Jon.

These are examples. What they mean I don't know.

[Sleeve of Wizard]

Love this thread.

You had me at "…At every important juncture where we see Jon and Tormund together, Tormund is sharing a skin of mead with Jon. It's probable that even without knowing it, Jon is participating in a religious observance ...”

[bemused]

:D :D

I'd expect you to relate to that, Har !

[Wisenan69]

I'm fascinated with this thread but at the same time I've realized how ignorant I'm about the different mythologies that have been discussed. I would love to read about the Celtic and Norse mythologies, to start with.

I will very much appreciate any recommendations from the posters that seem to be so proficient in this topic. I realize that such a knowledge will add greatly to my enjoyment of ASOIAF.

I looked into Amazon for these books but there were so many that I didn't know where to start. Again, thank you for any suggestions.

[bemused]

Wisenan69...

I hardly know where to suggest, either . Many of my own books are old , and I don't know if they're in print..

Celtic Myth and Legend..Charles Squire ( English, Irish, Welsh)

Gods and Fighting Men.. Lady Gregory ( Irish )

Cuchulain of Miurthemne .. Lady Gregory ( Irish )

I've seen reprints of the Squire a few years ago ( and bought one since mine was falling apart. )

The Lady Gregory books I had to send to England for, when I bought mine..but Celtic mythology has taken a huge upswing in popularity since then and they are , or should be classics ( and the language is lovely )

Teutonic Myths and Legends or German Myths and legends... Donald A. Mckenzie ( includes Norse )

Any telling of the Sagas .. mine were loaned out and haven't come home yet..

But for the religion , this isn't bad.. https://en.wikipedia...org/wiki/Seiðr .. for a start , because I doubt GRRM's going to go into it too deeply ... and of course , he'll put his own twist on everything.. ;)