So what's Hell like?

[rocksniffer]

So as to not derail Mister OJ's thread, I'm going to put this here.

I find the whole scenario of an 8 year old feeling the need to ask her parents if she needs to be 'saved' as repugnant. When I was 8 I was reading books about dinosaurs, playing cricket in the street with my mates, struggling with long division, looking forward to my next fishing trip with my dad and doing everything in my power to stay up past 7.30pm. I was not forced into thinking about high end concepts concerning like the need to be saved. That child is now worried, at a vulnerable age in her psyche, about being in some way 'punished' - for eternity no less - for something she has no control over. Presumably she has learned by the age of 8 that punishment is something doled out for doing something 'naughty'. One wonders what she thinks she has done to deserve such a heinous punishment as hell. Worse, i wonder what she thinks she has to do to get the magic ticket?

It is infuriating that it is socially acceptable to teach 8 year-olds about this sort of thing in a culture where we don't think people are mature enough to elect a governemnt until they are 18.

I completely agree Stubby, and at 18 they are still not mature enough to buy a beer...elect a president, die in war, but don't get drunk!

Going for a night out in 42's in Manchester, and then when you try to leave the bouncer tells you that you can't, ever.

and at the same time he tells you the liquor has run out...

You don't have to believe in a literal fiery hell in order to believe in Jesus and His sacrifice for us.

Plenty of Christians follow the example of Jesus and believe that He was God's son sent to save us. You don't have to make up your mind about what He is saving us from, though.

God has a plan that is huge and all encompassing. I don't think we humans can ever fully understand it. The folks that claim to understand God's plan and will are the one's that scare me. :)

this is the first time I have heard this, though I am no expert I was under the impression that believing the good parts of the bible meant you must also believe the bad parts...

...which reminds me of my favorite GoT line ...Why are all the gods such vicious cunts...where is the god of tits and wine?

[MisterOJ]

this is the first time I have heard this, though I am no expert I was under the impression that believing the good parts of the bible meant you must also believe the bad parts...

...which reminds me of my favorite GoT line ...Why are all the gods such vicious cunts...where is the god of tits and wine?

There are a lot of Christians that take the Bible literally. Likewise, there are also a lot of Christians that take much of the Bible figuratively.

Take the story of creation in Genesis for example. If you take it literally, you believe that the world was made in six days. Pretty unlikely, yeah? But how long is a "day" to God? 24 hours? Or millions of years? I'm more inclined to believe the latter. You don't have to believe in a literal creation to believe that God was the creator behind it all.

Same goes with evolution. There's nothing inherently unChristian about believing that God had his hand in evolution and that's how we and the rest of the world came to be. It's just told as a sort of parable in the Bible so that the people of that time could try and make sense of it. Now, we know better and I believe that God wants us to use the knowledge we have acquired.

The same can be said for Hell. Is it really a "lake of fire" filled with unending torments? Maybe. But what if that's just a metaphor? What if it's really something else entirely? What if it is just an eternity away from God for those that deny Him?

I think the best Christians are those that are secure in their faith enough to admit that they can't figure out God's plan. It's too big for us. So the best thing is for we Christians to simply follow the example of Christ - by being good people, loving each other, helping our fellow man and trying to make the earth better off for the brief time that we are on it.

[Seli]

I appreciate that you guys don't bash me for what I believe, but my family no my mother has been so determined to get us meaning my other family members to be apart of her religion each time she's believed in something. I say its horrible because my views are based on my experiences so there a bit bias.

There is always bias, as long as you realize that you'll have a headstart. My own experiences don't compare, my family was almost completely non-religious when I was born and I got to find my own way.

Good luck with it, and try to find the path that makes you happy.

[Sci-2]

I think the best Christians are those that are secure in their faith enough to admit that they can't figure out God's plan. It's too big for us. So the best thing is for we Christians to simply follow the example of Christ - by being good people, loving each other, helping our fellow man and trying to make the earth better off for the brief time that we are on it.

Awesome quote. Quoted for Awesomeness.

[Eponine]

The same can be said for Hell. Is it really a "lake of fire" filled with unending torments? Maybe. But what if that's just a metaphor?

I fail to see how that's particularly positive or comforting. I mean, say that I tell you, "if X, I'm going to pull out your teeth, blow up your dog and eat your children. But don't worry because maybe that's just a metaphor for what I'm really going to do". After that level of detail, are you going to go home and be like - well Eponine is pretty nice most of the time, except for when she metaphorically wiped out that whole family next door, that might have just been an instructive story since it allegedly happened a long time ago and I wasn't there for it, so because I don't want to think that she would really act that way, I'm going to assume that when she said she was going to eat my children, she really meant that she was just going to stop talking to me.

[Sci-2]

When I did believe I just figured the Hell stuff probably got bolted on later, like the Orphics bolted on the Bogs of Hades as something Orpheus could save you from.

Of course, being raised Hindu it's a lot easier to think of gods of different religions as being like different superteams.

[TerraPrime]

Take the story of creation in Genesis for example. If you take it literally, you believe that the world was made in six days. Pretty unlikely, yeah? But how long is a "day" to God? 24 hours? Or millions of years? I'm more inclined to believe the latter. You don't have to believe in a literal creation to believe that God was the creator behind it all.

Really? Believing that there is a creator is less taxing than believing that He can create the worl din 6 days? I'd think that once you accept a super-powerful being capable of creating and ordering matter in ways that we cannot comprehend, that time has little meaning as a constraint to that being. In other words, if God can violate the first law of thermodynamics, then of course she/he/it can also violate the flow of time.

I think the best Christians are those that are secure in their faith enough to admit that they can't figure out God's plan. It's too big for us. So the best thing is for we Christians to simply follow the example of Christ - by being good people, loving each other, helping our fellow man and trying to make the earth better off for the brief time that we are on it.

I'm glad that there are people who want to be decent folks to each other, even if it takes being religious for them to get there. But from the outside looking in, the Christian God is at best, an asshole, and at worse, a sadistic despot. What good qualities you get from His behavior is ultimately your own selective reading of His revealed history. But hey, kudos to you, and millions like you, who can see past the depraved unethical acts of your God and find the nuggets of goodness in it.

And what Eponine said, too.

[Castel]

I think the best Christians are those that are secure in their faith enough to admit that they can't figure out God's plan. It's too big for us. So the best thing is for we Christians to simply follow the example of Christ - by being good people, loving each other, helping our fellow man and trying to make the earth better off for the brief time that we are on it.

Wouldn't that mean accepting hell? After all, as a puny human, you do not get to decide what part of God's plan is acceptable. If he claims that it's okay to broil people for eternity then you should simply yield to his plan no? After all, you're too tiny to be make moral judgements.

Also: why would hell be metaphorical and everything else not?

Also2: What is better? Should I lead a campaign to repress gay people therefor, at the expense of their happiness, discourage most future gay children from acting on their urges?This would save them from damnation so it seems like it's a net gain for society no?

[MisterOJ]

I fail to see how that's particularly positive or comforting. I mean, say that I tell you, "if X, I'm going to pull out your teeth, blow up your dog and eat your children. But don't worry because maybe that's just a metaphor for what I'm really going to do". After that level of detail, are you going to go home and be like - well Eponine is pretty nice most of the time, except for when she metaphorically wiped out that whole family next door, that might have just been an instructive story since it allegedly happened a long time ago and I wasn't there for it, so because I don't want to think that she would really act that way, I'm going to assume that when she said she was going to eat my children, she really meant that she was just going to stop talking to me.

Well, I don't think the "idea" of hell is supposed to be comforting or positive. So, that's sort of the point, I guess. It goes back to the carrot and the stick. Some people need that stick to get them moving in the right direction. For other people, it's the carrot.

I am not a Bible scholar or anything. But, I have spent a lot of time in church, so I know most of the important stories and whatnot. And I truly believe that the Bible is flawed. There are some Christians that say that alone precludes me from being a Christian - but they're small-minded assholes, so screw them. :) (I kid, I kid.)

Anyway, we can all agree that human beings are flawed. So there's no reason the Bible can't be flawed as well. And if you look at it subjectively and think about what kind of a dude St. Paul was, you can begin to understand why some of the things in there are the way they are. It doesn't mean Paul was a bad person, necessarily. He just had the same human flaws that most of us have today - only some of them were exasperated because of the era in which he lived.

I feel like I'm rambling. But the basis of what I want to say is that I believe in Jesus and what He stood for. I believe he was sent by God to show us humans a better way. All the rest of it, I am okay with taking a long hard look at and questioning. Hell, creation, evolution - you name it. But Jesus, He's the real deal. He's the glue that holds the wacky, dysfunctional family of God together. Thank God for Him.

[MisterOJ]

Really? Believing that there is a creator is less taxing than believing that He can create the worl din 6 days? I'd think that once you accept a super-powerful being capable of creating and ordering matter in ways that we cannot comprehend, that time has little meaning as a constraint to that being. In other words, if God can violate the first law of thermodynamics, then of course she/he/it can also violate the flow of time.

Maybe that is how God works. I don't know. I'll likely never know as long as I'm on this plane of existence. Maybe I won't know in the next either. And that's okay.

I'm glad that there are people who want to be decent folks to each other, even if it takes being religious for them to get there. But from the outside looking in, the Christian God is at best, an asshole, and at worse, a sadistic despot. What good qualities you get from His behavior is ultimately your own selective reading of His revealed history. But hey, kudos to you, and millions like you, who can see past the depraved unethical acts of your God and find the nuggets of goodness in it.

What "depraved unethical acts" are you attributing to God, exactly? Give me a few examples and I'll be glad to share my thoughts.

Wouldn't that mean accepting hell? After all, as a puny human, you do not get to decide what part of God's plan is acceptable. If he claims that it's okay to broil people for eternity then you should simply yield to his plan no? After all, you're too tiny to be make moral judgements.

Also: why would hell be metaphorical and everything else not?

For all I know, everything else very well may be metaphorical. I don't get too caught up in the minutia of the Bible. I believe Jesus was sent to earth by God, the Father, in order to show us a better way to live. And through Him, we can become closer to God and one day after we die, we'll get our reward for that faith.

Everything else is subject to scrutiny, in my opinion. God gave us minds to speculate and figure shit out. I think we should use them accordingly.

[Eponine]

Well, I don't think the "idea" of hell is supposed to be comforting or positive. So, that's sort of the point, I guess. It goes back to the carrot and the stick. Some people need that stick to get them moving in the right direction. For other people, it's the carrot.

Yeah, to me this is no different from saying - some some children need to be abused to get them moving in the right direction. Even if you assume people aren't innocent, then like saying if you threaten criminals with a year of torture, it'll reduce crime. Only when god threatens it, it's somehow ok.

[Castel]

Everything else is subject to scrutiny, in my opinion. God gave us minds to speculate and figure shit out. I think we should use them accordingly.

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Does morality come from God? OR put it another way: does the right morality come from God?

[MisterOJ]

Yeah, to me this is no different from saying - some some children need to be abused to get them moving in the right direction. Even if you assume people aren't innocent, then like saying if you threaten criminals with a year of torture, it'll reduce crime. Only when god threatens it, it's somehow ok.

Yeah. Hell is a harsh subject. Sucks, doesn't it? I wish folks wouldn't spend so much time fretting about it. There's enough bad stuff going on in this life to worry about the bad stuff in the next.

Does morality come from God? OR put it another way: does the right morality come from God?

I think God as the creator gave us all the ability to discern good from bad. I think everyone has an inner compass that lets us know the different. I think God put that there. (But, I could be wrong. That's just my own personal belief.)

[TerraPrime]

What "depraved unethical acts" are you attributing to God, exactly? Give me a few examples and I'll be glad to share my thoughts.

Witholding the ability to tell right from wrong, but punish Adam and Eve anyways for violating His order.

Killing all animals, plants, insects, and humans except of what's on Noah's Ark.

Flattening the city of Jericho because they were living on a piece of land that God wanted to give to His Chosen People.

Ordering a father to kill his son to prove that he's loyal and faithful to him, and then at the last moment said "Just kidding."

Killing the first-born sons in Egypt.

I think that would be a good list to start.

[Castel]

I think God as the creator gave us all the ability to discern good from bad. I think everyone has an inner compass that lets us know the different. I think God put that there. (But, I could be wrong. That's just my own personal belief.)

Yes, but Good and Bad are properties of the world that God created no?

[MisterOJ]

Witholding the ability to tell right from wrong, but punish Adam and Eve anyways for violating His order.

Killing all animals, plants, insects, and humans except of what's on Noah's Ark.

Flattening the city of Jericho because they were living on a piece of land that God wanted to give to His Chosen People.

Ordering a father to kill his son to prove that he's loyal and faithful to him, and then at the last moment said "Just kidding."

Killing the first-born sons in Egypt.

I think that would be a good list to start.

If you take those Old Testament stories as literal facts, then yes, God is an asshole.

Of course if those are just parables and exaggerated tales meant to convey themes of suffering, patience, faith, etc., they're not so bad, yeah?

[TheMysteriousOne]

Killing the first-born sons in Egypt.

Even though I'm currently a believer, this is the one thing that I've never been able to wrap my mind around.

[Castel]

If you take those Old Testament stories as literal facts, then yes, God is an asshole.

Of course if those are just parables and exaggerated tales meant to convey themes of suffering, patience, faith, etc., they're not so bad, yeah?

How? How is a story in which God murders a bunch of innocent people to make a point not disturbing? Couldn't he have make his point without being a douche?

[MisterOJ]

How? How is a story in which God murders a bunch of innocent people to make a point not disturbing? Couldn't he have make his point without being a douche?

The book of Exodus was written by Moses. Did this killing of innocent babies actually happen? What if Moses was just telling a tall tale to get his point across that God is a big badass that would do anything to get his chosen people out of Egypt? Those kind of tales were commonplace back then. I have no idea if it really happened or not. Although I am inclined to believe it didn't.

ETA: At least I am inclined to believe it didn't happen as literally and simply as it is told in Exodus.

[Sci-2]

Assuming there is some validity to the tales I think the idea is God may have done something different than what those tales say, or perhaps what did and did not happen got mixed up over time?