So what's Hell like?

[gryphon strike]

Physically, is it endless darkness? Lakes of fire? Endless recordings of Kenny G in a cramped elevator?

And how does someone stay sane enough or aware enough to be tormented?

Seems like torture porn via religion no?

As to damnation: So how does this work exactly? When I worked for a Dante Scholar, I remarked that this seem pretty creepy, as even if you take the heresy of salvation through good works (Pelagianism, right?) isn't it unfair to condemn people forever with different starting points for being morally better than others?

Just seems completely out of sync with any modern evaluation of how people work genetically and socially.

In all seriousness I believe we create our own hell.That is how we stay sane enough to be tormented we torment ourselves.he people.

You also have to remember that heaven and hell are pagan concepts not christian ones. Jesus speaks of "the kingdom of God" rather than Heaven ( think that is the right term but am very tired so might be slightly wrong ) These concepts were used as a carrot and stick approach to control the people.

[Stubby]

So as to not derail Mister OJ's thread, I'm going to put this here.

I find the whole scenario of an 8 year old feeling the need to ask her parents if she needs to be 'saved' as repugnant. When I was 8 I was reading books about dinosaurs, playing cricket in the street with my mates, struggling with long division, looking forward to my next fishing trip with my dad and doing everything in my power to stay up past 7.30pm. I was not forced into thinking about high end concepts concerning like the need to be saved. That child is now worried, at a vulnerable age in her psyche, about being in some way 'punished' - for eternity no less - for something she has no control over. Presumably she has learned by the age of 8 that punishment is something doled out for doing something 'naughty'. One wonders what she thinks she has done to deserve such a heinous punishment as hell. Worse, i wonder what she thinks she has to do to get the magic ticket?

It is infuriating that it is socially acceptable to teach 8 year-olds about this sort of thing in a culture where we don't think people are mature enough to elect a governemnt until they are 18.

[Theda Baratheon]

If this is the literal question: what is the hellish afterlife; then I'll say I don't believe in any sort of afterlife.

But if you're asking the what's hell to us personally.

Hell, for me, would be to be alone forever, in a tiny room that's only growing smaller, and smaller, and smaller and smaller left with all the darkest thoughts of human despair.

Cheery subject!!

So as to not derail Mister OJ's thread, I'm going to put this here.

I find the whole scenario of an 8 year old feeling the need to ask her parents if she needs to be 'saved' as repugnant. When I was 8 I was reading books about dinosaurs, playing cricket in the street with my mates, struggling with long division, looking forward to my next fishing trip with my dad and doing everything in my power to stay up past 7.30pm. I was not forced into thinking about high end concepts concerning like the need to be saved. That child is now worried, at a vulnerable age in her psyche, about being in some way 'punished' - for eternity no less - for something she has no control over. Presumably she has learned by the age of 8 that punishment is something doled out for doing something 'naughty'. One wonders what she thinks she has done to deserve such a heinous punishment as hell. Worse, i wonder what she thinks she has to do to get the magic ticket?

It is infuriating that it is socially acceptable to teach 8 year-olds about this sort of thing in a culture where we don't think people are mature enough to elect a governemnt until they are 18.

Yes...I didn't want to post in that thread as I didn't feel it was my place to.

But this PROFOUNDLY disturbs me.

I remember someone asked me if I believed in God when I was about 8 and I said ''nope, I don't think so'' and then they said ''UMMMM IM GONNA TELL ON YOU'' and I laughed hysterically like the strange creature I was.

Ultimately, I am SO thankful for the way my parents brought me up. The thought of an eight year old child asking if she needs to be saved, really, really disturbs me.

[Sci-2]

Yeah I can't imagine thinking of kids being damned.

[Sixshells]

So as to not derail Mister OJ's thread, I'm going to put this here.

I find the whole scenario of an 8 year old feeling the need to ask her parents if she needs to be 'saved' as repugnant. When I was 8 I was reading books about dinosaurs, playing cricket in the street with my mates, struggling with long division, looking forward to my next fishing trip with my dad and doing everything in my power to stay up past 7.30pm. I was not forced into thinking about high end concepts concerning like the need to be saved. That child is now worried, at a vulnerable age in her psyche, about being in some way 'punished' - for eternity no less - for something she has no control over. Presumably she has learned by the age of 8 that punishment is something doled out for doing something 'naughty'. One wonders what she thinks she has done to deserve such a heinous punishment as hell. Worse, i wonder what she thinks she has to do to get the magic ticket?

It is infuriating that it is socially acceptable to teach 8 year-olds about this sort of thing in a culture where we don't think people are mature enough to elect a governemnt until they are 18.

I don't thik it's socially acceptable outside of the religious communities that happen to believe in this kind of nonsense. But you are right all the same, it is infuriating that some people feel they have the right to put that kind of garbage into children's minds.

[Castel]

I don't thik it's socially acceptable outside of the religious communities that happen to believe in this kind of nonsense. But you are right all the same, it is infuriating that some people feel they have the right to put that kind of garbage into children's minds.

• 
  Why shouldn't they?
  

[Eponine]

• 
  Why shouldn't they?
  

For the same reason that it's not alright for parents to tell their children that if they don't do X, Y and Z, they're going to get burned - not just a cigarette burn, although that's bad enough - but burned up and down their entire body. Burned until their skin chars and falls off. Burned until they're screaming with pain. And the burning will never stop, the pain will go on and on forever. Do you really have to ask why a parent shouldn't threaten their child this way? Yet when the parent says it's GOD who's going to inflict the punishment, suddenly that's ok?

When Mister OJ asked his daughter what she needed to be saved FROM and she didn't know, I think his beliefs are more along the lines that she can acknowledge salvation, but the consequence of not acknowledging it is not eternal punishment. However, his question got to the core of the issue - salvation implies being saved from something. I think that for his variety of religion, it's the wrong word and this would be a good time to be thinking about the appropriate way to explain Christianity in non-Evangelical terms.

[Sci-2]

I think Castel's point is if you really believe in Hell, you'd try to make sure your kids don't end up there.

[Pebble thats Stubby]

If firely pits of hell is really real then God most definalty is not a nice benevolant God who loves us. But is more of a monster who could turn on you at any time at teh flip of a hat. Probably your best aim in this case is try for Purgatry. if you get in Heaven you will be (after)living in fear for all eterrnaity that God may change his mind on a whim. At least in Purgarty your less likely to be noticed. At least until he's run out of "saved" people to terrorise because tehy are not show the right level of gratitude or appriciative of "the blissfull" envrionment he's created just for them.

[Eponine]

I think Castel's point is if you really believe in Hell, you'd try to make sure your kids don't end up there.

I guess that's why they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

The worst part is that the damaged and self-loathing adult child is forced to recognize that their parents had their best interests in mind, and therefore it would be unfair or whatever to cut them out their life, adding to the residual guilt they already feel.

[Castel]

If firely pits of hell is really real then God most definalty is not a nice benevolant God who loves us. But is more of a monster who could turn on you at any time at teh flip of a hat. Probably your best aim in this case is try for Purgatry. if you get in Heaven you will be (after)living in fear for all eterrnaity that God may change his mind on a whim. At least in Purgarty your less likely to be noticed. At least until he's run out of "saved" people to terrorise because tehy are not show the right level of gratitude or appriciative of "the blissfull" envrionment he's created just for them.

lolno. God is omniscient. There's no hiding. Also, he never needs to terrorizes people in heaven because at least one person has told me that God alters the people there, removing their "bad" parts so they can live in bliss. Celestial North Korea indeed. He'd probably pick on the people in hell.

I think Castel's point is if you really believe in Hell, you'd try to make sure your kids don't end up there.

That,and I'm wary of deciding which religious beliefs a child should hear.Not only are there problems justifying this it's also practically impossible to enforce.

But on a general note I don't see the problem with salvation. Unbelievers are damned are they not? People who are raised believers are saved from such damnation. As I understand it Christians have this idea that everyone is by default a sinner and they need to be forgiven for this. If that is true then the point is even stronger.

[Seli]

So as to not derail Mister OJ's thread, I'm going to put this here.

I find the whole scenario of an 8 year old feeling the need to ask her parents if she needs to be 'saved' as repugnant. When I was 8 I was reading books about dinosaurs, playing cricket in the street with my mates, struggling with long division, looking forward to my next fishing trip with my dad and doing everything in my power to stay up past 7.30pm. I was not forced into thinking about high end concepts concerning like the need to be saved. That child is now worried, at a vulnerable age in her psyche, about being in some way 'punished' - for eternity no less - for something she has no control over. Presumably she has learned by the age of 8 that punishment is something doled out for doing something 'naughty'. One wonders what she thinks she has done to deserve such a heinous punishment as hell. Worse, i wonder what she thinks she has to do to get the magic ticket?

It is infuriating that it is socially acceptable to teach 8 year-olds about this sort of thing in a culture where we don't think people are mature enough to elect a governemnt until they are 18.

It is one of the socially accepted forms of (self-propagating) child abuse. And one of where traditions clash heavily with other interpretations of individual rights. And in my opinion one of the reasons why society/government mandated minimum education standards are so important. Children have the right to know that the opinions of their parents and peers are not the only ones out there.

But that was also definitely not the thread to discuss that problem.

Yeah I can't imagine thinking of kids being damned.

Many Christians seem to have the same problem, and you can see them jumping through hoops to try and avoid that conclusion. With different denominations coming up with different explanations.

[A wilding]

But on a general note I don't see the problem with salvation. Unbelievers are damned are they not? People who are raised believers are saved from such damnation. As I understand it Christians have this idea that everyone is by default a sinner and they need to be forgiven for this. If that is true then the point is even stronger.

So lets say you have a child who obstinately refuses to believe in Christianity and whom you suspect may be possessed. Or a child who fails to memorise those sections of the Koran you give them to learn. Are you entitled to use parental authority to force them? How far can you go in this? (Presumably a very long way if their salvation depends on it.)

Within the last year both of those scenarios have resulted in children in the UK being killed by their parents.

[MisterOJ]

Hey y'all. Just dropped into this thread to see what was up, not expecting to have already been a part of it.

Don't worry about my daughter. She wasn't traumatized by her friend asking if she was saved. She already has a strong belief in God and is not worried about going to hell in the least. She just didn't understand the concept of being "saved" because it's not something we really talk about in the Presbyterian church.

She has asked me before if hell is real.* I answered her honestly and told her I wasn't sure. I told her lots of people had different things to say about hell, but I wasn't sure what it was like or if it was even a real place. I also told her that it's not something she needs to worry about, because she is a member of God's family.

*She also got this from friends at school, because in the years we've been going to the Presbyterian church, I don't think the pastor has talked about hell once in his sermon. The thing I love most about my church is that we put the focus on trying to follow Christ's example of being good people, helping our fellow man and not judging others who aren't like us. We don't focus on sin and hell at all, really.

ETA: And I do appreciate y'all having this dicussion here, rather than in the thread I started. Big ups for that.

[Sixshells]

• 
  Why shouldn't they?
  

Because it's abusive. Why should they teach their children to believe in a deity that, in their own beliefs, is a huge asshole? That's healthy! <_<

And belief their children won't be saved if they don't is no good excuse. Children have a right not to be emotionally blackmailed into believing whatever crap their parents happen to believe.

[Alex.]

Going for a night out in 42's in Manchester, and then when you try to leave the bouncer tells you that you can't, ever.

[Sci-2]

And belief their children won't be saved if they don't is no good excuse. Children have a right not to be emotionally blackmailed into believing whatever crap their parents happen to believe.

I think the challenge here is negating the belief. Once someone thinks you need to believe in X or you'll be damned...well, you wouldn't want your kids to think it's okay to touch a hot stove right?

Or drink bleach? Or cross the street without looking both ways?

So why would you want them to be eternally damned?

[MisterOJ]

I think the challenge here is negating the belief. Once someone thinks you need to believe in X or you'll be damned...well, you wouldn't want your kids to think it's okay to touch a hot stove right?

The problem with a lot of Christians and non-Christians is that they focus too much on the being damned part. Since I was raised in an Evangelical environment (not one of the really over-the-top examples, but Evangelical nonetheless) I understand this. I spent a lot of time in my childhood fretting over eternal damnation.

And at the end of the day, I didn't have to. I don't think the point of Christianity is to damn anyone. You can choose to look at it that way if you like. Or, you can look at it from a perspective of following Christ's example of being a good human being and believing in His sacrifice and being rewarded in the afterlife.

[Sixshells]

I think the challenge here is negating the belief. Once someone thinks you need to believe in X or you'll be damned...well, you wouldn't want your kids to think it's okay to touch a hot stove right?

Or drink bleach? Or cross the street without looking both ways?

So why would you want them to be eternally damned?

Because one is a belief, while the other are actual tangible risks that we have evidence can happen and are proven to be dangerous. It's not a prejudice against stoves to say that it's dangerous to touch a hot stove, it's a fact. But what about someone who believes that people who don't share his faith have no soul, and maybe are not even really human; should he teach that to his children to "protect" them against their influence?

Parents want to have their children share their values, it is an understandable desire. But when those values are harmful, or manipulative (such as believing you go to hell if you aren't saved/don't believe), or generally prejudiced, should they, really? That they tell their children what they believe in, well, obviously, that is bound to happen. But are all their values something they should seek to teach to them? I don't think so.

[Sci-2]

I think you're missing the point that if you genuinely believe, Hell is as real as any danger in this world...except it lasts forever.

You don't think there might be a Hell, you know there is one.