Where are the great knights?

[Warhammer]

I think the easiest way to fix this is to give KG members the option to opt out after 5-10 years. Honorable service would get you land and title, a very attractive offer for 2nd or 3rd sons.

I think the for life part is the deal breaker at least for me. I love chasing women as much as the next guy but I'd give it up for 5 years if I could set myself up for life financially..

[Jolene Brown]

I think Jamie's memories of the KG standing by while Aerys was "hurting" Rhaella and murdering Ned's father/brother are an authorial indication of the irony that these men are remembered as honorable while he is called Kingslayer. However, the new Kingsguard does lack a certain magnitude.

[Jon Flowers]

And what exactly did they say about the Kettleblacks, when exactly did they see them fight or fight with them? What chapter and page in what book because I'd love to go back and review that part. Jaime commented on how far the KG has fallen, of course there are no more Daynes, Barristans, Hightowers etc. but that isn't saying that these guys can't fight (Kettleblack, Swann, Loras that is), the only reference I remember him making directly to the Kettleblacks is the fact that he had never heard of them before. Once again I'd love to see where Jaime and Bronn said that the Kettleblacks can't fight and I'm seriously interested in seeing your answer in case I missed something.

Unless of course you are just making more assumptions.

You expect him to quote the book, chapter and verse after not having been able to do so yourself? That's a bit strong don't you think? Don't worry though, there are many references to the Kettleblacks' lack of fighting prowess and they will be found and posted for your edification. I hope you'll find them as entertaining as that secondhand kitchen gossip, praising the man's athleticism and making no mention of his swordsmanship.

[Artos Stark]

You expect him to quote the book, chapter and verse after not having been able to do so yourself? That's a bit strong don't you think? Don't worry though, there are many references to the Kettleblacks' lack of fighting prowess and they will be found and posted for your edification. I hope you'll find them as entertaining as that secondhand kitchen gossip, praising the man's athleticism and making no mention of his swordsmanship.

I posted something that I remembered that was directly from the book and was confirmed by him. It isn't my fault that he (or you) didn't like the source of the information. But like I said before this was really the only direct report about their ability that I can remember.

If you can provide some of these references that you speak of I would be more than happy to listen to them and review them in the books....... I will be waiting patiently......

[kkae]

Here are few quotes I was able find in a short time. Only looked in ACoK and first chapters of ASoS.

ACOK:

Amiable rogues all three, the brothers were in truth much more skilled at deceit than they’d ever been at bloodletting.

Tyrion's opinion of the Kettleblacks at the time when Cersei hires them.

Ser Osmund and his brothers had become great favorites about the castle; they were always ready with a smile and a jest, and got on with grooms and huntsmen as well as they did with knights and squires. With the serving wenches they got on best of all, it was gossiped.

This quote is right before the one earlier posted in this thread. I would like to think that the washing women are only gossiping.

ASOS:

A pity she didn’t choose a Kettleblack. Bronn would make short work of any of the three brothers, but the Mountain That Rides was a kettle of a different color.

Tyrion's thoughts before trial. So at least Tyrion believes none of them are a match for Bronn.

At least Kettleblack would likely know how to use a sword and shield. Sellswords were seldom the most honorable of men, but they had to have a certain skill at arms to stay alive.

Jaime's thoughts when he meets (Osmund) for the first time.

It also seems that no one has really seem them fighting. At lest the other brothers didn't apparently do much fighting when Stannis attacked King's Landing.

[Bourne]

I posted something that I remembered that was directly from the book and was confirmed by him. It isn't my fault that he (or you) didn't like the source of the information. But like I said before this was really the only direct report about their ability that I can remember.

If you can provide some of these references that you speak of I would be more than happy to listen to them and review them in the books....... I will be waiting patiently......

I did a quick scan for quotes.

Here is a quote from when Cersei is trying to convince Tommen that Osmund would be a better trainer than Ser Loras.

“You make too much of that boy. Your little wife has filled your head with foolish notions of his prowess, I know, but Osmund Kettleblack is thrice the knight that Loras is.”

Jaime laughed. “Not the Osmund Kettleblack I know.”

As you can see, Jaime finds the idea of Osmund being a great knight laughable. And in case you weren't sure he thinks Loras is better, I give you another Jaime quote...

“Ser Loras is thrice the man Ser Osmund is.”

And a Tyrion quote.

The bitch checks my moves before I make them. A pity she didn’t choose a Kettleblack. Bronn would make short work of any of the three brothers, but the Mountain That Rides was a kettle of a different color.

Really almost every opinion given in the books that isn't from the Kettleblacks themselves seems to think they aren't anything special. I don't know why you would think otherwise.

[Batman]

It is actually implied that Kettleblack is at very least equal to the Hound with a sword. The problem with them is that they are so far from honorable that even Jaime doesn't want them in the KG. Which is ironic since Jaime is probably the worst KG member that there ever was.

Implied by Cersei and Osmund, who are both blithering idiots. Cersei once said that Osmund was twice the knight Loras was, Jaime laughed and said "not the Osmund Kettleblack I know". If he is not even as good as Loras, the Hound would cut through all three of them. Three less nats as Sandor would say

[Tree Warg]

Everyone keeps naming Sir Loras. Loras played well at war enough but his one shot at war he gets himself critically burned and probably killed. Plus, he was bested by Brienne and wanted no part of the Mountain that rides. Hardly a formidable warrior.

Being a great knight is about duty and opportunity. Leading up to Game of Thrones there was a decade of peace. Hard to find great warriors when no one is fighting.

Martin could fabricate 6 great knights for Jaime out of thin air.

[the Scorpion Knight]

noone mentions Ser Harras harlaw the Reaver knight?

[KingOfDorne]

Everyone keeps naming Sir Loras. Loras played well at war enough but his one shot at war he gets himself critically burned and probably killed. Plus, he was bested by Brienne and wanted no part of the Mountain that rides. Hardly a formidable warrior.

Being a great knight is about duty and opportunity. Leading up to Game of Thrones there was a decade of peace. Hard to find great warriors when no one is fighting.

Martin could fabricate 6 great knights for Jaime out of thin air.

Correct me if im wrong but didnt Loras take Dragonstone even though he got injured. And he also killed those two rainbow guards when he found out Renly died. Plus its the Mountain other than the Red Viper and Sandor who really wants to fight him.

[MallisterTheMighty]

I always assumed Barristan didnt go to the Wall because of Roberts remarkable ability to turn enemys into friends?

[Net-Viper X]

Correct me if im wrong but didnt Loras take Dragonstone even though he got injured. And he also killed those two rainbow guards when he found out Renly died. Plus its the Mountain other than the Red Viper and Sandor who really wants to fight him.

It was the army Loras had with him that took the castle, Loras himself was taken out of action when the oil hit him and is supposedly near death.

The two rainbow guard he killed were his fellow knights that trusted him and had no reason to be on their guard around him. It would be like if you and a friend saw another of your friends in distress and ran to see what was up, and he just turned around and stabbed both of you in the stomach. You wouldn't see it coming at all and would have no chance to defend yourself. It was an unprovoked and cowardly act against his sworn brothers.

I always wondered if he didn't have a reputation for victory because he was one of those much loved goody two shoes types that cheated his ass off at everything he did and noone would notice because their little angel could do no wrong since he was far too perfect. You all know the type, everyone has a sibling, cousin, or schoolmate at some point just like that.

[Fragile Bird]

I think you are missing out on one point Jaime makes - the knights make their names in tournaments. Jaime has never heard of the Kettleblacks and has never seen them at a tourney. Loras was a winner of tourneys, and when he was injured, he was leading the attack on, what, the inner walls? Not a coward, not a general sending out 20,000 troops while he stood in the back watching. Jaime says he's one of the finest knights with a lance he's seen, and Loras says Garlan is better than him with a sword. All the great knights, including Selmy in the KG, fought at tourneys. Jaime was a melee winner at 13, already making a name for himself, enough to go out with the men against the Kingswood Brotherhood and get knighted in the field by Dayne himself. No Kettleblacks at tourneys means a great deal of doubt about their skills.

Remember, even poor little Jon Arryn's squire, murdered effectively by Gregor Clegane, went to the tourney trying to prove himself. It was the way to move up in the world.

ETA: And one of Jaime's bitter memories of Aerys was that after annointing him into the Kingsguard at the start of the Harrenhall tourney, Aerys doesn't allow him to fight but sends him back to KL to guard the queen. Harrenhall was a huge tourney.

[Jon Flowers]

Bourne, kkae; thanks to both of you. i hope he found that instructive. I unfortunately have the final three books lent out at the moment so I can't check what I remember. Thanks again guys.

[Jon Flowers]

I posted something that I remembered that was directly from the book and was confirmed by him. It isn't my fault that he (or you) didn't like the source of the information. But like I said before this was really the only direct report about their ability that I can remember.

If you can provide some of these references that you speak of I would be more than happy to listen to them and review them in the books....... I will be waiting patiently......

Some folks were kind enough to post a short selection for you; see above. And for the record, my only problem with your post was the insulting and arrogant tone you took with the first person to ask you where you came by your theory. Anyway, you've got some reading to do so I'll leave you to it.

[Fat Mac]

A Kingsguard does not choose his King, Barristan should have refused to serve Robert, as the 3 at the ToJ did. He could have chosen the Wall (as he thought Jaime should have), died or went into exile with Viserys and Daenerys. Barristan may have had good reasons for not following Viserys but I'm afraid that isn't the job of a Kingsguard.

Well as you just said, a Kingsgaurd does not choose his king. Barristan was wounded on the Trident, not killed. When Dayne, Hightower and Whent refused to serve Robert, he was not king yet, and the war was not technically over (because I dont think Robert was coronated at the time). By the time he healed, the war was over, and Robert was the legal king. So I believe due to his vows, he legally had to serve Robert. Only Cersei really believed that the death of the King would release one from their Kingsguard vows.

[Ser Adam Dayne]

Loras: Jaime and others make multiple remarks about how skilled Loras is, and he definitely acquitted himself well during the Battle of the Blackwater. At Dragonstone, he makes a "rookie" mistake, one that age and experience should have tempered. I would definitely say Loras has the skill/potential to be in the KG, but for the time being he seems to still have too much allegiance to his house. After all, it was his desire to take Dragonstone so quickly for the Tyrell's that led him to lead the charge...if that is really what happened. If there is some deception on his behalf, that does not seem to be in line with the behavior that a knight of the KG should exhibit.

Jaime: This is a character that is going through the most changes, I believe. Obviously with the loss of his sword hand Jaime is at a great disadvantage. He will never be equal to what he was before, but 50% of Jaime Lannister is still better than 75% of the warriors in the realm. Also, he has developed a sense of humility that will benefit him in the long run. Couple that with his obvious experience, and the fact that the KG serves for life, and Jaime deserves to be in the KG. It seems that the penance he had to pay in order to receive his enlightenment was his forfeiture of being the best sword in the land.

Trant/Blount: I couple both of these bums together. Sure, they are better than the average knight, and they know how to take orders, but that's about it. They beat on women and let their charges be captured. They lack in skill and moral fortitude to be considered true knights of the KG. I think its Blount that is described as being fat and out of shape a couple of times. Hey, nothing wrong with that, but he shouldn't be a member of the KG. That being said, they are still alive...somehow.

Swann: This guy is the real deal. I tend to lend a lot of validity to Jaime's thoughts, and he thinks highly of Swann, as do many others. He seems to be a rather honorable man, and is supposed to be pretty good with both a mace and a bow. Furthermore, he by all accounts fought well at the Blackwater, and is chosen by Cersei to go down to Dorne for Myrcella. Cersei realizes that she can't send one of her creatures down south, but actually needs a real knight who can handle himself. He's the best of the new appointees.

Osmund Kettleback: All flash, no substance. While we won't hold his questionable morals against him, since that seems to be the flavor of the day with today's KG, his actual skills seem to be in question also. There should never be a debate about members fighting prowess, and he has plenty of reservations about him.

Robert Strong: Well, since we are 99% sure he is in fact the Mountain, we know that he is super humanly strong and savage in combat. We don't know how his new state has affected his mental abilities, but hey, Gregor was never known for being a champion at cyvasse. Oddly enough he might be a suitable member of the KG, but I don't like it.

Guys appointed during the new regime, but are no longer with us...

The Hound: Can't debate his skills, but his character is just about as fucked up as anybody in the realm. Not even a knight to boot. Once again, his prowess cannot be questioned, but he's a murdering psychopath in the worst sense. Also, one of my favorite characters...whatever that says about me.

[bloodymime]

A Kingsguard does not choose his King, Barristan should have refused to serve Robert, as the 3 at the ToJ did. He could have chosen the Wall (as he thought Jaime should have), died or went into exile with Viserys and Daenerys. Barristan may have had good reasons for not following Viserys but I'm afraid that isn't the job of a Kingsguard.

I wonder what the protocol is for the Kingsguard joining royals in exile. It seems like it would make sense but then the lines from the ToJ scene seems to cast some doubt on it.

“Ser Willem Darry is fled to Dragonstone, with your queen and Prince Viserys. I thought you might have sailed with him.”

“Ser Willem is a good man and true,” said Ser Oswell.

“But not of the Kingsguard,” Ser Gerold pointed out. “The Kingsguard does not flee.”

Aerys is dead, Rhaegar is dead, how is it fleeing protecting the royal family. Yet to them there's a distinction. The Kingsguard does not flee.

[GallowKnight]

The two rainbow guard he killed were his fellow knights that trusted him and had no reason to be on their guard around him. It would be like if you and a friend saw another of your friends in distress and ran to see what was up, and he just turned around and stabbed both of you in the stomach. You wouldn't see it coming at all and would have no chance to defend yourself. It was an unprovoked and cowardly act against his sworn brothers.

I would agree with this, I always assumed that Loras just ripped out his sword and cut Robar and Emmon down before they had a chance to defend themselves, as it was in a fit of rage. And they should by all reason not have had anything to fear from a sworn brother.

[TheKingwithTheSword]

The Hound: Can't debate his skills, but his character is just about as fucked up as anybody in the realm. Not even a knight to boot. Once again, his prowess cannot be questioned, but he's a murdering psychopath in the worst sense. Also, one of my favorite characters...whatever that says about me.

Who did the Hound murder that he wasnt ordered to? People think hes bad because the starks and small folk fear him. Even the Kingslayer respects the awesome skill of Sandor. When cercei asks him to kill someone she says "im not asking you to best the hound" a difficult task even for The new Lord Commander. The Hound would be the perfect Kingsguard. He would fit great if Aerys or Viserys sat the throne. Even Rhaegar for he does not question his liege, is loyal onto death, and is basically the best fighter in the realm with Barristan being so old, jamie mained, and the rest of Aerys KG dead after the War of the Usurper