[Book Spoilers] Jaime Lannister

[Thunderfist]

So, HBO has managed to completely change another main character. What I always found really interesting about Jaime was that his two great "horrible" acts could be somewhat justified. He killed Aerys to prevent the Mad King from burning Kings Landing and killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. He threw Bran Stark from that window to save himself, Cersei, Joffrey, Tommen, Myrcella and possibly even Tyrion. But now, to turn him into a sociopath who kills his own cousin for no apparent reason, it´s not like he had an actual chance of escaping considering he was chained hand and foot and had the entire northern army around him. Oh well, there goes Jaimes entire redemption arc down the drain. And whatever happened to the massive taboos against kinslaying?

[teemo]

It was dumb. Not only could have Alton just played dead, but like you said - where is Jaime supposed to go? Even though we didn't see it, it sounds like a better attempt in the books.

[Arrogant Bastard]

How do you justify Jaime having Ned's men killed in AGOT? You say he threw Bran from the window to save himself and his family, well he killed Alton to save himself and escape. In the books Jaime didn't give one crap when Cleos died, so I don't think it's that far fetched that he would kill a distant cousin if it meant a chance at saving himself.

[frametown]

Jaime is one of the most evil characters in the books. People are easy to forgive and forget when it comes to this story.

I thought it was a great scene.

[ThePrinceOfSunspear]

I agree Jaime is a monster but that was due more to his thoughts coupled with the few monstrous acts he actually did perform.

Like in A Feast for Crows he revisits the whole "Joffrey is attacked by Nymeria" incident that occurred with Arya and Sansa. And he recalls how furious Cersei was and how she wanted "blood for blood". Then Jaime reveals that if he had come upon Arya FIRST he probably would have hurt her even though she was just a child....

So to me Jaime has always been a dark and twisty character but it was mostly in his mind and his psyche. The show has ruined him by doing this and it was totally unwarranted. I was actually very disturbed during the entire scene because I knew the moment the boy opened his mouth and started conversing with Jaime that he was a dead man.

[Sxxman]

No they are not abandoning Jaime's redemption arc, that is just ridiculous. My question is does anyone else on the show KNOW he killed Alton or did they assume Karstark's son did it? Also I don't think the show has defined kinslaying as a massive taboo so it should have to much of an affect on his redemption arc. But we shall wait and see how his arc is handled.

[wolverine]

Dude...Jaime starts out as an unconscientious bastard in the books. I can vividly remember how much I hated him. You remember how Cersei thought they could have maybe frightened Bran or lied to him? Jaime just shoves him out a window. So even evil queen Cersei did not agree with that act.

Jaime cares almost nothing for anyone other than himself.

It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that he just killed his cousin though. Like someone said above they could have faked that and both attacked the guard or something. But as far as showing his morality, it is right in line with the books IMO. In the first few books there are very few people who Jaime would not kill, maime, torture, insult, etc. if it was to his advantage or just pleased him.

[teemo]

Everyone can debate Jaime's morality, but it's not even about that. It didn't make any logical sense! I think more of the complaint should be that Jaime wouldn't have been that stupid. He gains nothing from killing Alton when he could play dead, and Jaime has no where to go. He's obviously going to be captured almost immediately. Not even Jaime can fight through as many men as there were there, and he knows that.

[EgoistMusketeer]

2 Handed Jaime was exactly that stupid. He was arrogant and probably honestly believed that he could sneak away from the northern camp. Jaime was never shown to be a strategist, just an idiot that was good with a sword.

[Evamitchelle]

Everyone can debate Jaime's morality, but it's not even about that. It didn't make any logical sense! I think more of the complaint should be that Jaime wouldn't have been that stupid. He gains nothing from killing Alton when he could play dead, and Jaime has no where to go. He's obviously going to be captured almost immediately. Not even Jaime can fight through as many men as there were there, and he knows that.

This is my main problem with the scene. It's just terribly contrived. First you have to believe that there was only one guard looking after them, that they put a Lord's heir on guard duty like a common soldier, that he quickly overheard them talking yet Jaime had time to bash Alton's head in and pretend to be asleep before the guard came back and that the guard just happened to have the key to both the cell and the manacles.Then you have to believe Jaime managed to sneak out of a enemy camp with 15,000+ enemy soldiers without drawing attention to himself. It just doesn't make much sense.

[wolverine]

This is my main problem with the scene. It's just terribly contrived. First you have to believe that there was only one guard looking after them, that they put a Lord's heir on guard duty like a common soldier, that he quickly overheard them talking yet Jaime had time to bash Alton's head in and pretend to be asleep before the guard came back and that the guard just happened to have the key to both the cell and the manacles.Then you have to believe Jaime managed to sneak out of a enemy camp with 15,000+ enemy soldiers without drawing attention to himself. It just doesn't make much sense.

I was thinking for a while that Jaime is totally going to hurt poor Alton/Cleo whatever his name is. Then when he called him closer I knew poor random Lannister was a gonner but I had no idea why. Then I was like...you killed him to get your LONE guard to come in your cell? How stupid is the Stark army about keeping their most valuable prisoner? Why would they really care if Jaime wants to kill his cousin?

ETA: You are right about how contrived it is also. All their cells are full so they put one guy most likely to be friendly with Jaime in his cell. This same guy would also probably have the most information about happenings in Kings Landing. Why would they want Jaime to interact with him at all?

[theotherserge]

2 Handed Jaime was exactly that stupid. He was arrogant and probably honestly believed that he could sneak away from the northern camp. Jaime was never shown to be a strategist, just an idiot that was good with a sword.

I concur. Martin plays out this theme of a knight's arrogance in such ways. Ser Vardis was a good one, Lyn Corbray, Ser Loras, The Red Viper, Ser Jorah etc etc...Jamie was exactly the type of guy to get himself caught because he's so much better than the rest of his troops that he got ahead of them and then found himself in a mess. What the seven hells is forethought when you're used to hacking and hammering your way out of trouble?!

[Currawong]

This is my main problem with the scene. It's just terribly contrived. First you have to believe that there was only one guard looking after them, that they put a Lord's heir on guard duty like a common soldier, that he quickly overheard them talking yet Jaime had time to bash Alton's head in and pretend to be asleep before the guard came back and that the guard just happened to have the key to both the cell and the manacles.Then you have to believe Jaime managed to sneak out of a enemy camp with 15,000+ enemy soldiers without drawing attention to himself. It just doesn't make much sense.

Exactly. It's one of the problems arising from the fact that Jaime is not being held in Riverrun, but in a cage and travelling around with Robb's army. If Robb wanted to hold a high-value hostage (which the Kingslayer is), then having him held like that in an open cage where any disaffected northerner could sneak up and stick a knife in him on any night, just makes no practical sense. High value hostages were generally held in reasonable comfort, so they could be traded, unless (as Jaime did in the book), they try to escape or otherwise become 'difficult'.

But because they havce moved various scenes and events from Riverrun, they have had to concoct an escape plot that really makes no sense at all. They'd have been much better off forgetting the attempted escape entirely, and just having Cat agonise over what she's doing, before deciding to release Jaime in order to get her daughters back.

[wood_dat_aye_could]

Did anyone recognize the actual dialog from the Alton/Jamie scene? Did Jamie have that exact same conversation w/ another Lannister somewhere in the books. Obviously it would have ended differently, but that whole story about the squire and the fat Lannister mother sounded vaguely familiar. Could they have borrowed that story from another chapter, book, 'cousin', and if so, I think it was done well. I looked at some of his chapters in SoS, but couldnt find the dialog there. Does anyone have any insight on what book or character this dialog is from, if it IS in fact taken somewhere from the books?

[Gemini]

I really have a hard time seeing where people are so convinced that Jaime is a complete sociopath. I mean, I believed it too until I read book three and four, and when I went back to reread book one, I figured I'd go back to hating him again. But I didn't, because I could see the subtle hints of his redeemable qualities. For example, Tyrion remarks of him being the only one of his relatives to ever be kind to him. While Cersei and Tywin were making Tyrion's life miserable, Jaime was an actual brother to him, and looked out for him. And when Jaime pushed Bran out of the window, the line is, "'The things I do for love,' he said with loathing." It isn't, "'Hey Cersei, check this out!' he said, smirking." Everything about that line implies that he didn't want to do what he was about to do, but he felt like he had to for the sake of those he cares about, mostly his sister/lover. I'm not saying that it was an all right deed because he didn't want to do it. Of course it was still wrong. I'm just saying, he doesn't go around killing anyone he feels like and thinks it's perfectly all right.

All of Jaime's awful acts have been for the sake of others. Bran was for his sister, Aerys was for all of King's Landing, and Jory and company was because he thought Ned was responsible for his brother's capture. Once again, I'm not saying I agree with these decisions (except for Aerys. I consider Jaime a hero for that one), but he had very distinct motives for each, and each demonstrated just how much Jaime will do ANYTHING for someone he cares about. "The things I do for love," really sums him up more than any other line.

And that's why I don't buy in to him killing Ser Alton. Alton was on his side, he wasn't in Jaime's way or a threat to someone Jaime cares about. I can't see him killing someone like that, so pointlessly.

[victim]

This little event could actually play into his redemptive arc further down the track, even though this is just me hoping. I think it could work nicely if he doesn't forget what he did, and ends up regretting it.

Say, for example, in his bathtub scene with Brienne, if he is telling her about why he killed Bran and why he killed Aerys, and finally ends with his cousin. He's an arrogant dick because of his abilities but when he loses his hand he begins to see himself as irrelevant and this is pretty much how his redemptive arc forms. What if he goes out of his way to mention how killing Alton was something he did for himself simply because he felt like he was more important than his cousin -- perhaps even because he felt like his sister and children needed him to survive their oncoming hardships.

The large problem with Jaime's ASoS arc is it's not exactly a physical journey, despite all the travelling it is mostly in his headspace, he saves Brienne because of a dream for example. Translating such a change in character is often very difficult to do on screen and usually has to be done through action and dialogue, which is why I think a scene of him telling Brienne stories regretfully will serve a valuable purpose.

While I mislike him killing Alton, I think the entire story, or adaptation I should say, needs to play out before we jump to any wicked conclusions. I also personally don't think it destroys his redemptive arc, I think it could make it better.

[Currawong]

The large problem with Jaime's ASoS arc is it's not exactly a physical journey, despite all the travelling it is mostly in his headspace, he saves Brienne because of a dream for example. Translating such a change in character is often very difficult to do on screen and usually has to be done through action and dialogue, which is why I think a scene of him telling Brienne stories regretfully will serve a valuable purpose.

You make a very good point. So much of the change in Jaime is internal, seen only through his POV in ASOS and AFFC. It also applies to Brienne in AFFC, and it is interesting that we basically 'see' their growing relationship as much through their thoughts when they are apart, as anything when they are together.

The "internalisation" of so much of ASOIAF is a great problem for the series writers, simply because there is so much general information and background given only through people's thoughts and reflections, not through any open action or dialogue. Hence the need for so many invented scenes, or changes to book dialogue. When writing, GRRM can spend several pages outlining some point about Westeros history or the key families, and it is important to us as readers because we get to know the world, and also get to know some of the critical background to the current war. But actuially showing that on screen, without benefit of an overall narrator, is extremely difficult.

[Elba the Intoner]

I totally agree with Gemini above. He is far from a saint, there's no question about that, but we do learn that many of his evil acts were to protect others and for those he loved in particular, except for in those cases where he was fighting a war. He was portrayed that way in the first season too. So that's why this seems so out of character. Oh well, almost every character on the show has been acting out of character for them so far, except for maybe Theon, Bran and Brienne (and Sansa who's had little screen time to do much of anything and Davos who we'll hopefully see again soon).

[Hear Us Roar]

I think lviing in your own feces for months while being spit on and beaten while not allow you to make the most sane decisions.. and he was rash and quick to begin with.

[EveryoneRelax]

I totally agree with Gemini above. He is far from a saint, there's no question about that, but we do learn that many of his evil acts were to protect others and for those he loved in particular, except for in those cases where he was fighting a war. He was portrayed that way in the first season too. So that's why this seems so out of character. Oh well, almost every character on the show has been acting out of character for them so far, except for maybe Theon, Bran and Brienne (and Sansa who's had little screen time to do much of anything and Davos who we'll hopefully see again soon).

First time poster, hello everyone! That was also my biggest problem with the scene. Jaime isn't a saint by any means but he doesn't just kill people randomly and he is far too clever to not figure out a better way out of that situation. Oh well it is what it is.