Why I don't think Jon and Dany will end up in love

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

That makes sense but it's not how Jon is projected in symbolism or visions/prophecy, he's always ice. A blue rose on the wall, losing all memory of warmth, etc.

He's depicted as a blue rose on the ice wall because he's actually at the ice wall. Jon "is" the blue rose, he's not the "ice wall" — that only describes his location.

Speaking of that sequence, someone who believes it shows husbands might be able to tell me why Dany sees her silver mare. If the blue rose and the corpse on the ship are "visual representations" of actual people, why did Dany see the mare and not Drogo's red stallion? The silver mare doesn't represent him, it represents her.

[Ygrain]

I hope it doesn't happen, or if it does, one or both of them ends up dead. This starry-eyed lurve match thing is just gag-inducing. And I STILL think that the "bride of fire" thing is not the literal reference to husbands so many people insist on it being. I think the emphasis is on the FIRE, not on the BRIDE. Just like she was called "daughter of death" when she saw Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar, even though, last time I checked, she's not the daughter of any of them.

I totally agree with you; besides, I do not see how Jon would be "fire" in this connection. I find the image of "bride of fire" a rather disturbing one.

[butterbumps!]

Except that he's not depicted as ice, but as a blue flower growing in said wall of ice.

I guess I should put this another way. Jon has considered the impending Winter and the White Walkers (i.e. Ice) to be a threat to the good of mankind. He has taken great pains to protect people from this enemy, and to try to make other people who are in positions of power to understand that this enemy is coming. In terms of Jon's alliances, he has already understood "Ice" as an enemy to mankind, so he is not on the side of "Ice" as it pertains here. Instead, he has a balance of Ice and Fire. To keep this balance of ice and fire, it stands to reason that he will either side with Both fire and ice, or Neither.

It makes no sense to say that he represents ice, but also considers it the enemy, and to fight it, he will double his fire side. He's supposed to be balance, is at least what I take from the foreshadowing of the title.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I totally agree with you; besides, I do not see how Jon would be "fire" in this connection. I find the image of "bride of fire" a rather disturbing one.

It sounds like the feminine equivalent of Aerys saying that fire would be House Targaryen's "champion" in the Starks' trial. Which is not a good thing.

I think people see it as being husbands for two reasons: the word "bride" and the silver mare, which they link to Drogo, who was her husband, so the other two must be husbands too!

I see three problems:

1. "Bride" isn't necessarily literal to each of those three visions, just like Dany isn't actually the daughter of Rhaego, Rhaegar and Viserys.

2. If each of those visions is a representation of a person, Dany should have seen Drogo's stallion, not her mare. In which case, the entire reading is based on a misinterpretation.

3. Unless Hizdahr is the ship corpse (I doubt he is), I think we'd be short at least one husband.

[victim]

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the Sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them." - Quaithe, ADwD.

Ok, so I promise I'm going somewhere with this just bare with me. I think it's safe to assume the Kraken and the Dark Flame are Victarion and Moquorro; the lion and the griffin being Tyrion and JC respectively; and the final two being Quentyn and Aegon VI.

It seems like most of the characters Dany will come in contact with have already been mentioned in this little prophecy -- all except Jon. So this either means they will never meet, which I very highly doubt, or that he is one of the few people she can trust, unlike all the others. Dany seems to base a lot of what she does on the things Quaithe says, (for example, she seems to have been walking backwards for some time) so I don't think the latter is too much of an unbelievable proposition.

All this means though is that Dany will trust Jon, or at least see no reason to doubt him, should they ever meet; it doesn't hint at any possible romances.

[PatrickStormborn]

I fail to see the connection. Care explaining this? Is getting the kiss of fire going to transform Jon into a giant douche bag?

Martin has publicly said he disliked that Tolkien brought Gandalf back without showing the negative consequences of resurrection. I don't think he's going to do the same with Jon, is he? Moreover, Jon has two things working against him returning back to being a nice (but dull) person: he was assassinated by his own people, and he's going to lose part of himself in Ghost.

If he doesn't become more like the ruthless Daario, I'll be very surprised.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Martin has publicly said he disliked that Tolkien brought Gandalf back without showing the negative consequences of resurrection. I don't think he's going to do the same with Jon, is he? Moreover, Jon has two things working against him returning back to being a nice (but dull) person: he was assassinated by his own people, and he's going to lose part of himself in Ghost.

If he doesn't become more like the ruthless Daario, I'll be very surprised.

I won't be surprised if he ends up becoming greyer. Equating "greyer" to "strutting peacock" though, that's odd to me. Has Daario cowed you too? :P All this does is remind me how atrociously godawful Stormbrat's taste in men is.

[butterbumps!]

"Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the Sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them." - Quaithe, ADwD.

Ok, so I promise I'm going somewhere with this just bare with me. I think it's safe to assume the Kraken and the Dark Flame are Victarion and Moquorro; the lion and the griffin being Tyrion and JC respectively; and the final two being Quentyn and Aegon VI.

It seems like most of the characters Dany will come in contact with have already been mentioned in this little prophecy -- all except Jon. So this either means they will never meet, which I very highly doubt, or that he is one of the few people she can trust, unlike all the others. Dany seems to base a lot of what she does on the things Quaithe says, (for example, she seems to have been walking backwards for some time) so I don't think the latter is too much of an unbelievable proposition.

All this means though is that Dany will trust Jon, or at least see no reason to doubt him, should they ever meet; it doesn't hint at any possible romances.

Or it simply means that the others who are mentioned in that vision are literally coming after her, as in, this does not pertain to "after" meaning temporal sequence, but "towards" her. All of those who have sought her out want to use her for their own objective. This goes to what you're saying, about how she should question the motives of these people mentioned. But I don't think it extends to the idea that she can trust Jon, or that he will be a logical ally to her simply by the omission of him here. I don't think Jon will use pretense to try to win her trust like the others mentioned here. I think he will outright oppose her without any sort of treachery.

Regarding the bride of fire sequence, I think it refers to individuals that will be major opponents that she must overcome/ clash with.

Her silver was trotting through the grass, to a darkling stream beneath a sea of stars. A corpse stood at the prow of a ship, eye bright in his dead face, grey lips smiling sadly. A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness

1. I strongly believe that the "silver" is Dany herself. This is EXACTLY the scene we have at the end of Dance where she undergoes a huge self-battle about her identity, where she is going, what she must do. She is overcoming herself-- no longer the conflicted Queen who wants to save everyone, but vanquishes that image and emerges as a self-proclaimed conqueror. Clash number 1.

2. I believe that the second refers to either Victarion or Euron. They are coming to seek her out, yes for the purpose of marriage, but more importantly, to take her power and syphon it off for herself. She will be tempted by the promise of those ships and power they can offer, and I believe that this will lead to a huge inner conflict where she struggles to decide how to keep her agency in this. To move forward, she will need to vanquish this corpse. Any alliance she might forge with them will be impure and temporary, and I believe she will overcome them. As a side note, I normally favor Victarion for this, and wonder if his smoking arm isn't eating away at him, but have also wondered just how "alive" Euron is- if there isn't some strange sorcery keeping him alive or something. Anyway, Clash number 2.

3. I realize that the flower is portrayed as filling the air with sweetness, but I don't think it's romantic. I think it could signify that Jon will end up triumphant, saving the world or what have you from the supernatural threats he is soon to face. At any rate, I don't think it implies reciprocated love or future husband. Instead, I think Jon will be a major obstacle to her, and there will be a battle of sorts, and it will be this that finally does her in. Clash number 3.

[PatrickStormborn]

I won't be surprised if he ends up becoming greyer. Equating "greyer" to "strutting peacock" though, that's odd to me. Has Daario cowed you too? :P All this does is remind me how atrociously godawful Stormbrat's taste in men is.

I never said he'd be like Daario -- I said he'd become more like him.

And to be perfectly honest, if the casting rumours for Daario are true then you can officially class me as being "cowed". :P

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I never said he'd be like Daario -- I said he'd become more like him.

So more like a giant strutting douche bag, you mean? *swoon*

And to be perfectly honest, if the casting rumours for Daario are true then you can officially class me as being "cowed". :P

Nobody ... seriously no one, ever, in the history of anything ... ever looked good with blue hair and a three-pronged beard. :D

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Regarding the bride of fire sequence, I think it refers to individuals that will be major opponents that she must overcome/ clash with.

1. I strongly believe that the "silver" is Dany herself. This is EXACTLY the scene we have at the end of Dance where she undergoes a huge self-battle about her identity, where she is going, what she must do. She is overcoming herself-- no longer the conflicted Queen who wants to save everyone, but vanquishes that image and emerges as a self-proclaimed conqueror. Clash number 1.

2. I believe that the second refers to either Victarion or Euron. They are coming to seek her out, yes for the purpose of marriage, but more importantly, to take her power and syphon it off for herself. She will be tempted by the promise of those ships and power they can offer, and I believe that this will lead to a huge inner conflict where she struggles to decide how to keep her agency in this. To move forward, she will need to vanquish this corpse. Any alliance she might forge with them will be impure and temporary, and I believe she will overcome them. As a side note, I normally favor Victarion for this, and wonder if his smoking arm isn't eating away at him, but have also wondered just how "alive" Euron is- if there isn't some strange sorcery keeping him alive or something. Anyway, Clash number 2.

3. I realize that the flower is portrayed as filling the air with sweetness, but I don't think it's romantic. I think it could signify that Jon will end up triumphant, saving the world or what have you from the supernatural threats he is soon to face. At any rate, I don't think it implies reciprocated love or future husband. Instead, I think Jon will be a major obstacle to her, and there will be a battle of sorts, and it will be this that finally does her in. Clash number 3.

I think this is a reasonable interpretation. The biggest hinge is #1. The silver mare represents DANY, not Drogo. That, I think, throws a kink into the entire "it's definitely husbands!" thing. And what is Dany's weapon of choice here, literally or figuratively, in these clashes? FIRE. "Bride of Fire." Boom. Skrillex.

[another bastard]

Have I left anything out?

Incest. Especially Targ incest. They're way too inbreed already. (I think I just had this argument a week or two ago.) But I agree with all the other reasons you mention too.

He's still authoritarian and still a commander, but lacks the ostentatious violence and flamboyant adornment of Essosi leaders.

Jon's definitely not an authoritarian personality - pretty much the opposite, I think - he's just in a position of authority in an essentially authoritarian (military) organization.

[chrisdaw]

He's depicted as a blue rose on the ice wall because he's actually at the ice wall. Jon "is" the blue rose, he's not the "ice wall"

Uh yeah, that's the whole point, he's a blue rose and not a harp or a red dragon, or a blue rose studded with Rubies, or anything else pointing to this fire side in any symbolism. There's been no effort to project a Targaryen side to Jon, and plenty on the side of ice.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Uh yeah, that's the whole point, he's a blue rose and not a harp or a red dragon, or a blue rose studded with Rubies, or anything else pointing to this fire side in any symbolism. There's been no effort to project a Targaryen side to Jon, and plenty on the side of ice.

Uh yeah, except that the blue rose is symbolic of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union. The union of Fire (Rhaegar) and Ice (Lyanna). I don't think GRRM would be so gauche as to depict anything as heavy-handed as what you described.

[butterbumps!]

Uh yeah, that's the whole point, he's a blue rose and not a harp or a red dragon, or a blue rose studded with Rubies, or anything else pointing to this fire side in any symbolism. There's been no effort to project a Targaryen side to Jon, and plenty on the side of ice.

I guess I should ask- do you think Jon is going to fight on behalf of the side of ice rather than against it?

gauche is such an underused word.

[chrisdaw]

Uh yeah, except that the blue rose is symbolic of Rhaegar and Lyanna's union. The union of Fire (Rhaegar) and Ice (Lyanna). I don't think GRRM would be so gauche as to depict anything as heavy-handed as what you described.

How does the blue rose represent a union or anything on Rhaegar's side? The blue rose is very heavy handed in pointing towards Lyanna.

I guess I should ask- do you think Jon is going to fight on behalf of the side of ice rather than against it?

I don't know, but how does that pertain to the point I'm making? I'm alleging the text is not at all shy in projecting an alignment with ice whilst offering nothing on the fire side, which given his supposed parentage is peculiar more than anything. I'm not offering any theory as to why it is the case.

[ARYa_Nym]

To be fair many people have theorized that blue roses refer not to Rhaegar and Lyanna but Stark women which is why some people thought that Jon wasn't necessarily in the bride of fire sequence. However, the wall of ice part points to Jon.

If Jon is AA that figure is the instrument of the Red Lot/fire magic. Many people see Bran as the Great Other but perhaps he will be the one to actually restore the balance if his wolf's name being Summer has significance.

There is a possibility that history is wrong and this hero is a hero for both sides like how The Last Hero and the Night's King seem like the same person.

I'm skeptical of the theories that Jon will fight both Dany (fire) and Bran (ice).

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

How does the blue rose represent a union or anything on Rhaegar's side? The blue rose is very heavy handed in pointing towards Lyanna.

And who gave the blue roses to Lyanna? :bang:

[Ygrain]

How does the blue rose represent a union or anything on Rhaegar's side? The blue rose is very heavy handed in pointing towards Lyanna. I don't know, but how does that pertain to the point I'm making? I'm alleging the text is not at all shy in projecting an alignment with ice whilst offering nothing on the fire side, which given his supposed parentage is peculiar more than anything. I'm not offering any theory as to why it is the case.

If the blue rose is Lyanna, then Rhaegar must be the father. The Sack of KL - 9 months is sometime after the beginning of the Rebellion.

[GreyDeLeon]

LOL!

Personally I don't find Jon to be mud in the way that Ned or Quentyn was. Both of them imo had little to no personality and were a bore although there are those who think this of Jon. I think If Jon is boring it's because his constant self-pitying gets old but not because he lacks a personality. He has a certain snarkiness, impulsiveness, stubbornness, and temper that Ned lacked so I think there is a little of the wolf's blood there that may appeal to girls/women who want something more exciting and not so dull. I don't see him as the Brandon type because he's not very charismatic and full of life. He is too melancholic and antisocial but Dany may find this behavior mysterious and alluring. I think he is intimidating based on Mel's POV.

As for his looks he's probably not like Rhaegar. I imagine that girls gravitated to Robb over him but this could be in part because Jon was a bastard while Robb was the trueborn heir. It's not confirmed though that he's avg. looking or good looking. He could be the hot version of Ned for all we know.

I do think he has a little bit of a problem with being frigid in the way that Ned was. He comes off borderline asexual which should be a turnoff. Most of the men of the NW sleep with whores and when he has Val right there he is "too honorable" to do anything.

However, I think his assassination attempt will fix some of the problems with his personality as well as his leadership skills.

He may appreciate life more and become more ruthless, more likely to go after what he wants, etc. Whether he's dead or not I see his character becoming more grey in the next two books.

IMO Ygritte killing the old man wasn't out of character for her especially based on their conversation about wildlings raiding the Northern lands and kidnapping and raping Northern women. She had a ruthless streak as well but she didn't have the power that Dany had. She wanted Mance to raid the North though. Jon knew what she was like and still cared for her long after she was gone.

Anyways I don't think that Jon is opposed to dragons. He jokingly said that a dragon may warm things up at the Wall. He is a good candidate for a dragon rider and the second head of the dragon.

As far as ending one or both will probably die but they should leave behind legitimate heirs.

This Jon is more of a wolf than any of the other Starks besides Arya. Even savage that time he attacked Ser Alliser

"My lord is wise." Ser Alliser seized Jon by the arm.

Jon yanked away and grabbed the knight by the throat with such ferocity that he lifted him off the floor.

He would have throttled him if the Eastwatch men had not pulled him off. Thorne staggered back,

rubbing the marks Jon's fingers had left on his neck. "You see for yourselves, brothers. The boy is a

wildling." Pg. 625 aSoS

Seems rough enough to me.