Why I don't think Jon and Dany will end up in love

[Ygrain]

- Don't get me wrong, I like them both, I just don't think they'll end up together producing a bunch of little silver-haired Targs.

Story-wise, it would be a terrible cliche (the Hero gets the Heiress to the throne), and I haven't seen an abundance of these in GRRM, quite the contrary, but it doesn't fit their characters, either. From what we can conclude from Dany's love life, she prefers grown-up men, older than herself, well-built, temperament and a bit on the rough/bad side - fire, not mud, as Ser Barristan notes. On the other hand, Jon is nowhere next to physically impressive (not bad-looking but since he looks like Ned so much, he is apparently nothing like Brandon, who I suspect would be just Dany's type) and a Stark to the bone, which makes him not just mud but frozen mud. I can't seriously imagine Dany falling for him like she did for Daario. Besides, she grew up on the stories of the Usurper's hound Lord Stark with his cold heart, and with Jon being so much like Ned, she will see her father's and brother's mortal enemy risen from the toomb. Not a great start of a relationship, either.

From Jon's point of view, he will probably find her physically attractive (unless meanwhile something happens and the most beautiful woman in the world will be somewhat less beautiful), but will he feel attracted? He does seem to like temperament (kissed by fire, huh?) and independent women but I don't think he will find the ruthless ruler type Dany seems to be turning into appealing. I think his reaction will be very much determined by the manner of Dany's arrival at Westeros, and if she comes with blood and fire, I suspect she'll be the last person he would ever hang out with. GRRM never pursued the relationship with Ygritte past the point she slit the old man's throat but I presume Jon would not be comfortable with her ruthlessness.

Thoughts? Have I left anything out?

[The guy from the Vale]

I think there will be a love story between Dany and Jon, just not a romantic one. I can totally see a one-sided love story unfolding, for example. I could also see Jon marrying Dany for her dragons and armies to have any chance of defeating the Others. Also, they could feel attracted to each other, but end up on different sides of a conflict, both unwilling to betray their sides...

Lastly, I keep Mirri Maz Duur's curse in mind: Drogo will 'return' to Dany when her womb quickens and she bears another child. So, even if we assume a mutual love story between Jon and Dany happens, it's very likely Dany will die in childbirth. So, at most one silver-haired Targ kid, and Jon as single father.

I agree that I don't want a Disney/fairytale ending, though. Just... no.

[Lady Winter Rose]

I think if Arya looked like Lyanna and her parents were Eddard and Catelyn, then Jon could look like Brandon the Older even if his parent is not Brandon. Just need to say.

I also don't think D&J would fall in love, mostly because cliche, Dany's preference in men and Jon's type of woman.

[ARYa_Nym]

On the other hand, Jon is nowhere next to physically impressive (not bad-looking but since he looks like Ned so much, he is apparently nothing like Brandon, who I suspect would be just Dany's type) and a Stark to the bone, which makes him not just mud but frozen mud.

LOL!

Personally I don't find Jon to be mud in the way that Ned or Quentyn was. Both of them imo had little to no personality and were a bore although there are those who think this of Jon. I think If Jon is boring it's because his constant self-pitying gets old but not because he lacks a personality. He has a certain snarkiness, impulsiveness, stubbornness, and temper that Ned lacked so I think there is a little of the wolf's blood there that may appeal to girls/women who want something more exciting and not so dull. I don't see him as the Brandon type because he's not very charismatic and full of life. He is too melancholic and antisocial but Dany may find this behavior mysterious and alluring. I think he is intimidating based on Mel's POV.

As for his looks he's probably not like Rhaegar. I imagine that girls gravitated to Robb over him but this could be in part because Jon was a bastard while Robb was the trueborn heir. It's not confirmed though that he's avg. looking or good looking. He could be the hot version of Ned for all we know.

I do think he has a little bit of a problem with being frigid in the way that Ned was. He comes off borderline asexual which should be a turnoff. Most of the men of the NW sleep with whores and when he has Val right there he is "too honorable" to do anything.

However, I think his assassination attempt will fix some of the problems with his personality as well as his leadership skills.

He may appreciate life more and become more ruthless, more likely to go after what he wants, etc. Whether he's dead or not I see his character becoming more grey in the next two books.

IMO Ygritte killing the old man wasn't out of character for her especially based on their conversation about wildlings raiding the Northern lands and kidnapping and raping Northern women. She had a ruthless streak as well but she didn't have the power that Dany had. She wanted Mance to raid the North though. Jon knew what she was like and still cared for her long after she was gone.

Anyways I don't think that Jon is opposed to dragons. He jokingly said that a dragon may warm things up at the Wall. He is a good candidate for a dragon rider and the second head of the dragon.

As far as ending one or both will probably die but they should leave behind legitimate heirs.

[The Last Reyne]

Actually I think he is the sort of rough, dangerous man she likes. Maybe not as utterly ruthless as Khal Drogo or Daario but remember he did set up the traps that took down the wildlings at Castle Black and he did a baby from its mother. He has a quiet strength that I think could attract Dany.

[Crown]

I don't want Jon and Dany to end up together, it would be a terrible cliché.

[Lan the Clever]

If Danny died her hair red and Jon took on steroids, the thing could work.

Well, first they would have to meet, and there's also the fact that we have no reason to believe that Danny liked dead people.

[Kittykatknits]

I don't think they will end up together but don't really care either way as long as it is decently written. The only evidence I've seen supporting it is Dany's visions in the HotU and Jon describing Val's hair as silvery in the moonlight. It seems if they were to fall in love and get married, there would be more foreshadowing as it would be a very significant event in the series. Just doesn't seem like there is much evidence for it. Now, if Jon were to die his hair blue.....that could be a gamechanger.

[maria underfoot]

Frankly, I don't think there's any chance of their "falling in love and living together for the rest of their lives".

First of all, because of the attraction problems the OP mentions

Secondly, because I find it totally un-Martinlike. He likes to torture his characters, give a chance to the underdogs, surprise us readers with who wins and who loses... It would be utterly boring and conventional to have THE rightful (?) heiress to the throne end up with THE honorable hero. It'd be something non-readers would expect.

Thirdly, I don't see how Dany will have enough time to bring an army to her cause, get to Westeros and reach the Wall, fall in love with Jon and win the Iron Throne.

Finally, I don't think Jon would break his vows again.

[Été]

Dany's gone for Eastern 'bad boy' types. Romantically or otherwise, I could see Dany being rather impressed by Jon because he's outwardly so different.

He's still authoritarian and still a commander, but lacks the ostentatious violence and flamboyant adornment of Essosi leaders. Where Drogo and Daario were straight-up warriors, Jon's had to learn the political game as well (like Dany). And from the way other characters react to him, Jon seems to cut a rather striking figure (the direwolf probably helps tbh) without being notably good-looking.

I think if there is a love story to be played out, Dany's past lovers will serve as a contrast. If nothing else, she's had a succession of men throw themselves at her, and Jon's pretty unlikely to do that... From Jon's point of view, I doubt the whole 'mother of dragons' schtick will cut much ice, but he might respect her bravery, her compassion, and her power to command loyalty. Etc.

[Silver Spearwife]

He has a certain snarkiness, impulsiveness, stubbornness, and temper that Ned lacked so I think there is a little of the wolf's blood there that may appeal to girls/women who want something more exciting and not so dull.

Thank you...

Don't forget that cockiness that shows up in his early chapters.

If Dany and Jon end up together, it's because R+L=J is true and he's forced into the marriage to stabilize the realm (his vows do say he needs to protect the realm, and it wouldn't be the first time he'd made a personal sacrifice to help achieve that - and she's already proven that she'll marry who she needs to). If they do marry, I am one hundred percent positive it would be a loveless marriage, because as far as this story is concerned it would be a serious detriment for them to be happily married.

At the moment if they met, there might be some attraction. While he's definitely overly serious and stoic at times, he can also be a little wild and impulsive, like ARYa said, which Dany likes (though he's not the badass warrior that she usually goes for). He seems to like women who can take a joke and teach him something new, and Dany definitely likes acting like she knows more than other people (although I don't usually see her laughing much). Maybe they could be friends - dunno about lovers. If, y'know, they were given the choice as they might in today's society as opposed to a crazy place like Westeros. Course, there are arguments to the contrary as well, that they wouldn't like each other at all.

But I don't think their character development is over. She seems, quite frankly, to be losing her mind, and his allies and subordinates just killed him, so it's almost certain that they won't be exactly the same people when they meet as they are now.

I don't think they will end up together but don't really care either way as long as it is decently written. The only evidence I've seen supporting it is Dany's visions in the HotU and Jon describing Val's hair as silvery in the moonlight. It seems if they were to fall in love and get married, there would be more foreshadowing as it would be a very significant event in the series. Just doesn't seem like there is much evidence for it. Now, if Jon were to die his hair blue.....that could be a gamechanger.

Now, who do we know who's seeking Dany's hand in marriage and dyed his hair blue?

He's still authoritarian and still a commander, but lacks the ostentatious violence and flamboyant adornment of Essosi leaders. Where Drogo and Daario were straight-up warriors, Jon's had to learn the political game as well (like Dany). And from the way other characters react to him, Jon seems to cut a rather striking figure (the direwolf probably helps tbh) without being notably good-looking.

I was rereading some ASOS passages the other day and at one point (before they were even sleeping together), Ygritte calls Jon "pretty", which I just thought was the most hilarious choice of adjective. I know that her perspective is highly skewed, but I just thought the fact that she chose pretty instead of maybe some other word was sort of funny and interesting.

[TWR]

I hope, if it does happen, it doesn't happen until the last sentence in the last book or else I'll never know how the story ends. The moment GRRM pairs up Jon & Dany I'm donating all my books to the nearest Goodwill.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

I hope it doesn't happen, or if it does, one or both of them ends up dead. This starry-eyed lurve match thing is just gag-inducing.

And I STILL think that the "bride of fire" thing is not the literal reference to husbands so many people insist on it being. I think the emphasis is on the FIRE, not on the BRIDE. Just like she was called "daughter of death" when she saw Viserys, Rhaego and Rhaegar, even though, last time I checked, she's not the daughter of any of them.

[chrisdaw]

I don't think they will end up together but don't really care either way as long as it is decently written. The only evidence I've seen supporting it is Dany's visions in the HotU and Jon describing Val's hair as silvery in the moonlight. It seems if they were to fall in love and get married, there would be more foreshadowing as it would be a very significant event in the series. Just doesn't seem like there is much evidence for it. Now, if Jon were to die his hair blue.....that could be a gamechanger.

Really? The foreshadowing runs as deep as the title of the series.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

Really? The foreshadowing runs as deep as the title of the series.

I see more foreshadowing that they'll end up opposed than that they'll end up in love.

[PatrickStormborn]

If Jon ends up getting the "kiss of fire" from Melisandre then he's gonna be much more like Daario than Ned or Quentyn. ;) So I see a future relationship as being quite likely.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

If Jon ends up getting the "kiss of fire" from Melisandre then he's gonna be much more like Daario than Ned or Quentyn. ;) So I see a future relationship as being quite likely.

I fail to see the connection. Care explaining this? Is getting the kiss of fire going to transform Jon into a giant douche bag?

[butterbumps!]

Really? The foreshadowing runs as deep as the title of the series.

But Jon isn't all "ice." If Jon + Dany would mean fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the "Ice and Fire" song, wouldn't that put Jon on the side of Ice? So far as I can tell, he's trying to quell the threat of winter/ ice, etc. He is fire and ice on his own, and I think it makes more sense that he battles the extremes of both fire and ice than marrying one side, rendering him Ice + Fire + Fire.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

But Jon isn't all "ice." If Jon + Dany would mean fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the "Ice and Fire" song, wouldn't that put Jon on the side of Ice? So far as I can tell, he's trying to quell the threat of winter/ ice, etc. He is fire and ice on his own, and I think it makes more sense that he battles the extremes of both fire and ice than marrying one side, rendering him Ice + Fire + Fire.

Yes, THANK YOU. I don't understand where this Jon + Dany = Ice and Fire thing comes from. One person is already both.

[chrisdaw]

But Jon isn't all "ice." If Jon + Dany would mean fulfillment of the foreshadowing of the "Ice and Fire" song, wouldn't that put Jon on the side of Ice? So far as I can tell, he's trying to quell the threat of winter/ ice, etc. He is fire and ice on his own, and I think it makes more sense that he battles the extremes of both fire and ice than marrying one side, rendering him Ice + Fire + Fire.

That makes sense but it's not how Jon is projected in symbolism or visions/prophecy, he's always ice. A blue rose on the wall, losing all memory of warmth, etc.