Dany will Fail: Here's Why.

[Ygrain]

You people fail to see the obvious.

Or you see what is not there.

[Castel]

:crying: :crying:

Castel, you wound my heart when you say this about Stannis. How could you?

I like (d) Stannis as well, and was pretty glad when he showed up in the WoW sample chapter but since it's set before Dance, it doesn't really change anything. Hopefully he died quick because I really can't stand another person falling into Ramsay's clutches.

A shame too, he was just growing on me as well as well.

[Silver Spearwife]

Are you a troll?

I think you're a troll.

Whatever, feeding trolls is fun.

How 'bout we go through the POV characters and list their successes and failures (since there are too many characters to go through everyone)?

Ned: Honorable lord and father, well respected, helped win Robert's Rebellion. Failed at almost everything pretty much the second he set foot in the Tower of the Hand, and died for it.

Catelyn: Good mother, smart woman but people wouldn't listen to her. Did not trust the Freys, didn't think Grey Wind should have been locked up - died for her son's failures, not her own. Made a blindingly stupid decision regarding Tyrion and the Eyrie, and another not-so-bright move with Jaime.

Sansa: Stupid girl who's learning about the world - I suspect we'll be seeing some very nice successes from her in the near future. Has done remarkably poorly up to now, but then, she hasn't exactly been proactive.

Arya: Failed to make it to Winterfell/Riverrun/the Wall, which isn't all that surprising. Is succeeding pretty well in her assassination training.

Bran: Has pretty much been guided through his journey by others, so it's hard to gauge success-fail.

Jon: Things went pretty well for him outside of a few hiccups right up until he was knifed in the back.

Cersei: Killed Robert eventually, almost got her way with her plan to deal with Ned except that her son's crazy. Successfully denies Robert any trueborn children. Terrible mother, awful queen, spends all of Feast undoing anything good accomplished by her father/brother.

Jaime: Makes Kingsguard at fifteen, kills said king. Has an affair with the queen that the king never finds out about. Once he hits the Whispering Wood, it's one failure after another. Has two major successes from there on out: saves Brienne from rape and gains control of Riverrun (albeit without Brynden).

Tyrion: Succeeds up until he gets his face bashed in, after which his life is a series of miserable and abysmal failures until he escapes slavery. You can count on one hand the number of people in the world who have ever honestly called him a friend.

Victarion: I wouldn't really consider anything he's done up to now particularly successful or not. He's just kind of...there.

Aeron: Well, he failed to put Victarion on the throne. Can't think of anything else. Um...well respected priest, I guess.

Asha: Very strong, competent woman who managed to captain a fleet. Failures: failed to become Queen of the Iron Islands and was captured by Stannis. Other than that, I can't think of anything that she hasn't done right.

Theon: Has anything worked out for him?

Arianne: All right, her one major plan didn't go so smoothly.

Quentyn: But to be fair, neither did his.

Areo: This doesn't even count.

Arys: Failed to protect his princesses, although more importantly he failed to protect his neck.

Dany: Did surprisingly well as a khaleesi until her husband and child died. Sort of outweighed by bringing dragons back into the world. Despite her royal heritage, she basically became a conqueror and a queen out of almost nothing - fair to note that her dragons weren't really factors in her conquests outside of getting people to pay attention to her. Failed to subdue Meereen.

Barristan: Excellent and widely renowned Kingsguard. Failed Aerys but succeeded in his quest to return to the Targaryens with Dany. We'll see how the situation in Meereen goes in the next book.

Davos: Born in Flea Bottom, raised to Hand of the King. Almost died on several occasions - successes and failures seem to be pretty well tempered.

Melisandre: Actually, outside of being an idiot when it comes to interpretations, things usually go her way.

Sam: Killed an Other, raised Jon to Lord Commander, brought Gilly to the Wall. Voyage to Oldtown went relatively not-so-smoothly, as he was unable to control Dareon or bring Aemon safely to the Citadel (but really, it's hard to blame him for that). Has been absolutely miserable almost every day of his life outside of some of his time with his brothers.

Brienne: She tries. She really does. I would chalk her failures up to impossible odds. She failed to protect Renly - who could have prevented that? Failed to protect Catelyn - Catelyn sent her away, Brienne wasn't present. Failed to keep Jaime safe - well, she was having enough trouble keeping herself safe at the time. Failed to find Arya or Sansa - who were being hidden by an assassin's guild and one of Westeros' most intelligent and deceitful men, respectively.

Jon Connington: He's a high lord in exile for what I recall as no particularly good reason. He has, however, done a fair enough job raising his prince and so far did a stellar job in retaking his claim in Westeros. 'Course, there's that little matter of greyscale, but that's just bad luck, really.

My point is, Bee Diddle, that you are focusing on the women's failures and the men's successes when it is just as easy to do the opposite. You have to account for everything.

Erm, I know it's easy to pick apart bits and pieces of what I've said because I always manage to get stupid things wrong and am always corrected over them, but my point is the general sentiment as a whole, so try not to get hung up on the details. Pretty please?

[Bee Diddie]

I'm not a troll. I get the real sense that GRRM doesn't have a lot of faith in the ability of women in the aSoIaF universe.

You're all acting like I'm insulting the story and I'm not. Martin has pretty much ruined the character of Dany for me and many others. Judging from the other women characters in the books, Dany won't make it to Westeros. If she does she won't last long.

Wait and see, I will accept apologies and "you were right" on this very thread.

[Winter's Knight]

I'm not a troll. I get the real sense that GRRM doesn't have a lot of faith in the ability of women in the aSoIaF universe.

You're all acting like I'm insulting the story and I'm not. Martin has pretty much ruined the character of Dany for me and many others. Judging from the other women characters in the books, Dany won't make it to Westeros. If she does she won't last long.

Wait and see, I will accept apologies and "you were right" on this very thread.

In all seriousness, there is a bad vibe around female leaders in the books but I hope it will resolve itself by the end of the books.

[Lummel]

Except by analogy GRRM doesn't seem to have any faith in the abilities of men in the GRRMiverse either.

On the other hand all political careers end in failure so what do you expect?

[Night Gathers]

Just throwing this one out there.

Jaime Lannister became a member of the Kingsguard at a young age, Brienne became a member of the Rainbowguard and she's a woman.

[PatrickStormborn]

I do find Martin's portrayal of female characters to be slightly problematic at times... But to assert that none of them have been as successful as the male characters is simply false. Daenerys is -- by quite a wide margin -- the most successful character in the series. She's birthed dragons, she's the first female to lead a khalasar in her own right, she's sacked three cities, she burned the House of the Undying, she tamed a motherfucking dragon, and she's only sixteen.

No male character in the series comes close to her, I'm afraid.

[Silver Spearwife]

I'm not a troll. I get the real sense that GRRM doesn't have a lot of faith in the ability of women in the aSoIaF universe.

You're all acting like I'm insulting the story and I'm not. Martin has pretty much ruined the character of Dany for me and many others. Judging from the other women characters in the books, Dany won't make it to Westeros. If she does she won't last long.

Wait and see, I will accept apologies and "you were right" on this very thread.

I don't recall this having anything to do with Dany's potential failure or success. It's about your assertion of why she will fail. I have my own theories on that and they don't have diddly squat to do with her gender. Even if you're right and she ends up suffering a defeat so brutal that even Theon Greyjoy would cringe at the horror, I still won't say you're right unless nearly all the remaining men succeed and all the remaining women fail.

[butterbumps!]

I'm not a troll. I get the real sense that GRRM doesn't have a lot of faith in the ability of women in the aSoIaF universe.

You're all acting like I'm insulting the story and I'm not. Martin has pretty much ruined the character of Dany for me and many others. Judging from the other women characters in the books, Dany won't make it to Westeros. If she does she won't last long.

Wait and see, I will accept apologies and "you were right" on this very thread.

So, basically, you liked Dany up until she did not live up to your expectations of her potential. You blame this on Martin's systematic lack of faith in the ability of the female, whereby no women has ever done anything as heroic, courageously or competently as the men in the story. I recommend looking over Arya, Sansa, Brienne, Asha and Cat's chapters, as well as women like Arienne, who, incidentally, is trying to change the system of primogeniture so that women can inherit. And of course, Val, Margaery, the QoT, and even Myrcella and Meera, are wonderful and strong in their own ways. Even Melisandre, Cersei and Lysa, who I assume you consider disastrously reprehensible, are not without sympathy or merit.

On the topic of Dany, how about this: No character is 100% good or evil (except for Joffrey, Ramsay and Gregor, who are all, notably, male). Dany was introduced as an easily heroic figure, seemingly destined to save the day. And now Martin has made her a bit more gray, has challenged many readers' notions that she is such a clear hero. I think that makes for a much richer narrative than just making her so one-dimensionally perfect, which I assume, was your first impression of her that she can no longer live up to.

[PSHorton]

Cersei was wildly succseful before she went nuts with paranoia. (She isn't portrayed as just another incomoetent chick. She undergoes a serious change after Tywin's death.) Arya kicks ass and Dany has been pretty succesful up to this point. It wasn't till dragons that she started to screw up. George is just trying to show her growing pains as a ruler, not that she's a fool.

[Ygrain]

I'm not a troll. I get the real sense that GRRM doesn't have a lot of faith in the ability of women in the aSoIaF universe.

You're all acting like I'm insulting the story and I'm not. Martin has pretty much ruined the character of Dany for me and many others. Judging from the other women characters in the books, Dany won't make it to Westeros. If she does she won't last long.

Wait and see, I will accept apologies and "you were right" on this very thread.

Hardly. While it is well possible that Dany will fail in retaking the Iron Throne, or she might even become an antagonist of the story, it will NOT be on the basis of her being female, therefore, no apologies on your way, I'm afraid.

I recall this extemely biased reading from that ridiculous Sadie Doyle, or whatever her name was, "review", where she went to great pains to read books she didn't like, only to do some cherrypicking and present her "case" how women are being wronged, while totally ignoring that male characters are no better off (and if you make a record of violent deaths and physical mutilations, male PoVs are actually treated worse. Ned. Jon. Tyrion. Jaime. Theon.... as compared to Catelyn and Brienne.)

[Lord Ben]

There are no women heroes, this is true. But there aren't men heroes either. It's a story about people good and bad who make decisions good and bad. Women and men together.

One interview with GRRM I read said when he looks at history he sees a lot of people like Nazi prison camp guards who were normal people with a family and nice to their neighbors and followed the law but when the situations arose committed unspeakable acts of evil. And on the flip side there are a lot of petty crooks and criminals, etc who did noble acts of selfless heroism when given a chance as well. The world isn't populated by evil and good or smart and stupid. His characters are real people with real faults. Women and men both.

If you read the book and want a woman warrior who rises up and dispels sexism in Westeros you're in for disappointment.

[Kittyhat]

Hm.

Successful troll is successful.

[Faint]

I'm starting to think there should be a permanent Daenerys hate thread pinned to the top of the board to give room to those that have the need to express how much they hate the character on a daily basis. Anything is better than dozens of running threads on the same subject.

[LordofWinter]

....a few successful women from aSoIaF

the green grace

lady olenna

margery tyrell

arya stark

shae(pre strangulation)

the widow of the waterfront aka vogarro's whore

sarella sand

melisandre

gilly

anya waynwood

chella

mind you, i'm sure you wouldn't define these women as successful, just lucky.

[Silver Spearwife]

I'm starting to think there should be a permanent Daenerys hate thread pinned to the top of the board to give room to those that have the need to express how much they hate the character on a daily basis. Anything is better than dozens of running threads on the same subject.

Didn't prevent the constant flow of new R+L=J threads on the forums :/

[Babeldygob]

Women who are succesful at anything they endeavor:

• Cersei (she only failed when taking up arms against Margaery and Olenna(other women)
  
• Olenna Tyrell
  
• Margaery Tyrell (even Loras couldn't stop Renly's untimely death)
  
• Melisandre (she may be wrong about her visions, but any action she has taken up has worked, including the plan to save Árya')
  
• The Green Grace
  
• Mirri Maz Duur (Yea, that's right, she killed a khal and his son)
  
• Sansa (She doesn't try much, but she managed to build the snow castle, I have a feeling she will do more in the coming books)\
  
• Arya (She never failed, others failed in her place or her plans didn't work out because of things she could not know)
  
• Osha (After her capture, everything she tried worked)
  
• The Karstark girl
  
• Catelyn (She couldn't save Robb, but then again no one could, she lives on too)
  
• Taena Merryweather (whatever her game is)
  
• I'm sure there are others...
  

[Bee Diddie]

You cannot list Catlyn in your examples of the successful women. Every single inclination she has had except perhaps urging Robb to keep his Direwolf with him and send any man the beast mislikes away has been wrong. She hated (and probably continues to hate in death) Jon Snow, even calling Robb's plan to name him heir "folly".

Danaerys may have had some successes I'll grant you, but she is acting anything but The Dragon she is supposed to be as she wastes her time doing everything except what she was born for.

Funny how some who disagree with my opinion have labeled me a troll. It's kinda pathetic, really.

[Ygrain]

You cannot list Catlyn in your examples of the successful women. Every single inclination she has had except perhaps urging Robb to keep his Direwolf with him and send any man the beast mislikes away has been wrong. She hated (and probably continues to hate in death) Jon Snow, even calling Robb's plan to name him heir "folly".

I see that you ignore my previous point about Catelyn's success in marriage. However, if you want to keep bashing her for her later decisions, do keep in mind that you criticise her from the position of an omniscient reader, who has not only background information she can't have had, but also the courtesy of retrospect. Saying that _every_ inclination she had was plain wrong is plain inaccurate, and unjust.

Danaerys may have had some successes I'll grant you, but she is acting anything but The Dragon she is supposed to be as she wastes her time doing everything except what she was born for.

Funny how some who disagree with my opinion have labeled me a troll. It's kinda pathetic, really.

So, this is actually your problem? The character does not behave in a way you want or expect her to? Not a hot kick-ass conquering chick but a girl who wants a home, tries to learn to rule because she has no idea how to do it (and isn't her failure at Meereen partly due to the fact that she was never trained to rule?) and makes mistakes, because in her situation, everyone would? You're reading a wrong book, it would seem.

Frankly, even though the Meereen plot does stretch a bit, I still appreciate it a great deal, because it adresses a lo of problem any ruler, or a conquering army, would inevitably have, dragon or not.