From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa V

[Thel]

Jaime and Tyrion also comment on this feeling

I get you, battle joy is a common idea everywhere and even in the books you have Tyrion thinking of Jaime describing it to him and even having it himself on the Blackwater. We don't see Robert in battle but he's described as laughing in the melee beating men bloody and I doubt he was a lot different in war. It's people that love the adrenaline rush. I'm sure people more knowledeable about human evolution would be able to explain why it's an advantage becuase it's certainly a common enough trait though now we like to just play pretend with sports.

I get a similar feeling when some bully gets a violent comeuppance. It's not that I'm inherently advocating violence, but little else upsets me in this world more than people who abuse the helpless. Sometimes the rush of glee is about seeing that retribution, a wresting back of power. And sometimes, laughter is a hard wired response (like tears) to extreme and uncomfortable situations; it's not just an adrenaline rush and subsequent sign of pleasure, but a coping mechanism--a way to channel that energy.

[brashcandy]

I entered tis thread and asked as serious question. I received several responses most of which sidestepped my question or played lose with the premise. Rather than engage in further discusion I chose to politely opt out. WHen I came back to the thread to read a response I found your thread taking umbrage with my departure. BTW I had the courtesy to notify you that I was dropping out I could have simply stopped responding. My response to your rudeness I will admit was curt. Now shall we agree to go our seperate ways?

Then what you should have done was to point out where you felt we were loose with the premises of your argument. By "opting out" the implication was that we were somehow being deliberately disingenuous. Anyways, yes, I have no problem dropping the issue. Good night.

[Howling Mad]

@Howling4Reed: I tried twice to reframe the argument to address your question (which I thought was an interesting one). I'm, admittedly, a little disappointed you didn't engage my response to you!

Edit: excuse all the crazy edits. I'm typing on a tablet and am, apparently, not very good at it. :)

Thel sorry for not responding. I think your explanation is fair and a good answer to my question. The fact that the Hound is a non-POV character does allow readers to project their own thoughts and intentions on to his actions. Something that is much harder to do with Tyrion since we know his POV. This is something I had not considered before.

This is unfair, Brash is one of the most polite and articulate people in this board and she was not rude at all, and neither do I think that Raksha, Thel and I were. You asked a question and we replied, honest answers all. I don't see what else we could have done.

Perhaps she is but I never resort to the use of foul langauge and if a person politely dops out of a discussion then I think its rude to essentially call them a coward or a troll.

[Lady Lea]

I get a similar feeling when some bully gets a violent comeuppance. It's not that I'm inherently advocating violence, but little else upsets me in this world more than people who abuse the helpless. Sometimes the rush of glee is about seeing that retribution, a wresting back of power. And sometimes, laughter is a hard wired response (like tears) to extreme and uncomfortable situations; it's not just an adrenaline rush and subsequent sign of pleasure, but a coping mechanism--a way to channel that energy.

Just so. This would explain laughing during the riots but not so much Mycah since he laughed while telling the story. I'd like to think of it as something out of character since you said (was it you?) that Martin regretted putting that in, but... who knows. The Hound has a really dark side and we don't even know that much about it. Even when the BWB tried him they couldn't find anything to charge him with...

[bloodymime]

I get a similar feeling when some bully gets a violent comeuppance. It's not that I'm inherently advocating violence, but little else upsets me in this world more than people who abuse the helpless. Sometimes the rush of glee is about seeing that retribution, a wresting back of power. And sometimes, laughter is a hard wired response (like tears) to extreme and uncomfortable situations; it's not just an adrenaline rush and subsequent sign of pleasure, but a coping mechanism--a way to channel that energy.

That too and I'm definitely that way myself in laughing when it would seem like the absolutely worst time for laughter.

[Valkyrja]

That too and I'm definitely that way myself in laughing when it would seem like the absolutely worst time for laughter.

I know exactly what you mean. I had a horrible day yesterday and on the way home in the car out of nowhere I just started laughing maniacally. I realized it was either laugh or else cry. So I laughed, and laughed, like a crazy person. I think it is a release of pent-up energy and emotions. Sometimes we actually ought to be crying our eyes out, but for whatever reason, we laugh instead.

(Not saying that's exactly what was going on there with Sandor, but just another example.)

[bloodymime]

I know exactly what you mean. I had a horrible day yesterday and on the way home in the car out of nowhere I just started laughing maniacally. I realized it was either laugh or else cry. So I laughed, and laughed, like a crazy person. I think it is a release of pent-up energy and emotions. Sometimes we actually ought to be crying our eyes out, but for whatever reason, we laugh instead.

(Not saying that's exactly what was going on there with Sandor, but just another example.)

And to be fair Ned seems to have that effect on people when he fixes that judging eye of his on them. Or at least kingslayer always seems like he wants to curl up in the fetal position and cry when he thinks of how Ned looks at him.

Just so. This would explain laughing during the riots but not so much Mycah since he laughed while telling the story. I'd like to think of it as something out of character since you said (was it you?) that Martin regretted putting that in, but... who knows. The Hound has a really dark side and we don't even know that much about it. Even when the BWB tried him they couldn't find anything to charge him with...

Interesting parallels in Sandor and kingslayer. We're really introduced to each of them with actions of harming children, they both have similar outlooks on life as both take the low road and defend themselves by claiming the struggle to be better is just too much, kingslayer with his talk of too many oaths and the Hound with how it's the world that's horrible. I haven't really thought about any other similarities past that but I often wonder if it's tied up with Bran's vision of them both.

And this laughing about Mycah, we see later on this actually seems to weigh on Sandor to the point he tells Arya he'll fucking kill her if she says his name one more time, that's how he knows how to deal with anything that hurts him, to lash out and attack it. Maybe he grew and came to feel remorse over it. Maybe he never felt right about riding down an unarmed boy to begin with and this was the beginning of his break with the owners that sent him to do something like this, but what else is someone like the Hound going to do? Cry? Show remorse? That's just not going to happen with another man. Even when it's not an act he simply doesn't have the words or emotional depth to express himself as when we see him trying to be gentle with Arya about her mother.

"They broke their fast in silence, until Sandor said, “This thing about your mother . . .”

“It doesn’t matter,” Arya said in a dull voice. “I know she’s dead. I saw her in a dream.”

The Hound looked at her a long time, then nodded. No more was said of it."

He's the one to actually bring it up but even then he has no idea what to say. It's just simply not in him with the way his life has been. That's not saying it can't change but that's the way it was.

[Lyanna Stark]

And to be fair Ned seems to have that effect on people when he fixes that judging eye of his on them. Or at least kingslayer always seems like he wants to curl up in the fetal position and cry when he thinks of how Ned looks at him.

That's how I always saw the laughing at Mycah's killing. Like Jaime's reaction to Ned entering and judging him for killing Aerys. It seems the same type of reaction. Also, it's Ned who is present for both, and he's this cold, honest, upstnading, justified and above all judging person.

Jaime obviously has a huge issue with Ned, and even the Hound brings up Ned's death to Sansa at the top of the Red Keep as if to prove something. Then later again he tells Arya he stood there and did nothing while her father was beheaded. It seems to indicate both Sandor and Jaime felt there was something with Ned that was...I don't know, like encountering someone who saw through the bullshit, or who was this high and mighty judging figure?

Sandor defends himself to the BWB with that he was ordered to kill Mycah since he laid hands on a prince of the blood, but while this is technically correct, it seems he really honestly feels remorse about it.

He's the one to actually bring it up but even then he has no idea what to say. It's just simply not in him with the way his life has been. That's not saying it can't change but that's the way it was.

True. Although he does try, which is in itself rather significant, I think. While there is life, there is hope and all that.

It's also interesting to note how Septon Meribald and the Elder Brother describe the people they once were. It seems the EB in particular wasn't very far off what the Hound was, in many ways.

[Knight]

Concerning the 'shipping' of Sandor and Sansa, I'd like to present my view on this.

The way I view the relationship between these two is that during thime Sansa was held hostage in KL, she and the Hound grew closer to each other because they both began to understand each other's views on the world. More importantly, both learned from each other - Sansa's eyes were opened by the Hound, and the Hound received empathy and understanding from Sansa, something he probably had never experienced in life before.

So, their time in KL marked the beginning of something that could become a loving relationship in due time. From that point, it is easy, or perhaps unavoidable, to speculate further what may happen if they see each other again and the time is given to them to deepen their relationship.

Shipping the Hound and Sansa in a sexual way would not only be wrong because of Sansa's age, but also because their emotional connection needs to be deepened, I think. Nevertheless, the basis for their relationship is set, so analyzing and discussing what may happen between Sandor and Sansa is not wrong in my opinion, but flows out of their interactions in GOT and COK, and Sansa's and Sandor's reflections on their interactions.

[1234567]

Re: Sansa and Sandor

Almost universally all posts I've seen want Sansa to be a lot older if involved in any relationship and most people seriously lament the lose of the five year gap and think GRRM screwed up all the Stark kid's ages.

I think this maybe one of the reasons why Alyane Stone is 14 and not 13. By the next book, she will hit 15 and this maybe more palatable for the storyline. As for The age difference between her and Sandor, I don't think that is a problem if she is older. The problem I have seen with Tyrion's age is that in many discussions, some people try to portray Tyrion and Sansa as equal victims in the forced marriage and cite his traumatic experience at 13 as some sort of excuse for his future behaviour. Often his age is raised as a point to show he was an adult in this situation and Sansa was a frightened girl. He does not have the excuse of youth in the forced marriage, that he had in the Tysha incident.

Both Sandor and Tyrion are adults and however they were scarred in their childhood, but it does not excuse their actions as adults (although their childhood's give readers an understanding of their nature). Therefore the fact the Sandor seems to show deep remorse for his treatment of Sansa and genuine anguish that she was fired into marriage and now seems to be going through rehab on the QI, makes any future relationship more palatable. The fact that Tyrion showed no remorse for the forced marriage or supporting his awful family and has instead indulged in a massive amount of self pity and wallowing without any reflection on how his own actions have contributed to his situation, does not make him and Sansa a particularly nice outcome. Although knowing GRRM, the poor girl will end up with him.

Also neither man is actually a good choice. Sansa would be far better off with someone like Pod or Aegon or had he lived, Domeric Bolton.

[mythsandstuff]

Am I the only one wondering this: if SanSan were to happen, wouldn't it undo all the learning Sansa's been doing about the romanticism of chivalry? Part of me wants her to "get" that the Hound is the most chivalrous man she knows, but part of me (and I think Sandor is with me here) wants her to "get" that chivalry is bullshit. I'm kind of afraid that if they reconnect, it'll be about the first lesson, and not the second.

Also: sorry for cursing, but you know, sometimes the bad words are just the right ones...

[1234567]

It is a good point. It would really only circumvent that if the power balance was equalized between them, or as was discussed in previous threads, Sansa remains Alyane Stone. Certainly if he showed up in the Vale with te EB, she could persuade LF to make sure it was known that he had no part in the Saltpans, maybe in return for a public statement about Cersei and Jaime and Joff?

Maybe it will be the more cynical outcome that she will end up using him as her pawn like TQoT does with her family. Indeed in a marriage to Aegon or Harry the Heir, I would guess that she will become the controlling force in the relationship. It may go back to her dream in AGOT where everyone she knew comes forward to pay her homage. Although in that dream she is seated beside Joff, so I am not so sure about the symbolism there.

[Valkyrja]

I don't see how loving/caring about someone for who they are, seeing beyond appearances is a bad thing. Especially since Sansa feels currently that no one will ever love her for anything other than her claim.

I think her lesson about True Knighthood, that she learned in KL, does not overlap completely with lessons about love. But if we are going to combine the two, then I would say her lament that no one will love her except for her claim is proof that she's learned and already somewhat internalized this lesson. . She seems to be resigned to the fact that idyllic 'romance' no longer awaits her, not in the sense she once thought. I think by starting to embrace her life as a bastard, she feels freer because Alayne is not desired for Sansa's claim, and she sees how another bastard, Mya Stone is able to find some happiness (whether lasting or not we don't know) with Lothor Brune, a plain but decent man.

I'm not really sure if this makes sense, but I think that Sansa/Alayne's views on what actually constitutes a real relationship (romantic/sexual/etc.) are changing, and have already changed quite a bit from when she first arrived in KL.

[1234567]

There have been numerous hints so far that she may end up finding romance outside of marriage.

[Valkyrja]

There have been numerous hints so far that she may end up finding romance outside of marriage.

A number of pages ago I was commenting how many of the songs Sansa loved in AGoT were actually about examples of couples who were *not* married (the courtly love trope), but that Sansa in her naivete did not necessarily realize this. LF is the one who tells her that life is not a song, but he is speaking part out of bitterness at how his own life has turned out, and partly to shape Sansa to that worldview. Sansa has now rejected songs (after her aunt went out the moon door she was rather traumatized by Marillion's singing). But perhaps, just as she is rejecting the songs, her life is more poised than ever to emulate one of them.

ETA: sorry this was a really rushed post, I have to run out the door at the minute, maybe I'll finish my thoughts later. :)

[brashcandy]

I don't see how loving/caring about someone for who they are, seeing beyond appearances is a bad thing. Especially since Sansa feels currently that no one will ever love her for anything other than her claim.

Precisely. I think she's gotten the memo that her naive concept of "True Knights" was more fantasy than reality, but it doesn't mean that finding someone who is kind to her, and looks out for her will undo that realisation.

[Daidalos]

As I’ve written previously, I have serious misgivings regarding the SanSan-relationship. My objections centre primarily on these points.

1. The age of Sansa and the circumstances during which the emotional seeds for the relationship were planted. Under the best of circumstances, young love is usually misguided—it takes maturity to form lasting, genuine relationships. When you take into account Sansa’s situation when she was around Sandor, it makes any feelings between the two highly suspect. The genesis of their relationship is troublesome, to say the least.
   
2. Sandor, while a complex and intriguing character, is entirely unsuitable as a romantic partner to anyone, much less Sansa. Sandor is an emotionally unstable murderer and abuser; even if he calmed down, he would still be guilty of terrible crimes. While he is a pathetic creature in many ways, this does not excuse his serious shortcomings. Because of this, it baffles me that people would want to wish Sandor upon anyone as a romantic partner.
   
3. What Sansa and Sandor have in terms of a relationship is not a good foundation for the future. This cannot be stressed enough, but Sansa and Sandor’s relationship must transform entirely for a healthy romance between the two to endure. Him as the protector might have worked in King’s Landing, but in a real relationship it would be creepy and have possessive undertones; moreover, it would cement the power imbalance between the two that reigned during her captivity. Essentially, what they have wouldn’t work—it would make for an unequal and abusive dynamic—and there’s little evidence to suggest that it can change.
   

Regarding Tyrion and Sansa, on my first read, I sympathised with Tyrion and shared in his resentment of Sansa. I felt that she could’ve kneeled, and that she was being unfair to Tyrion, who had protected her as Hand. However, having reread the relevant chapters a couple of times, I have completely reversed my position. Tyrion was very much in the wrong and he needn’t have been.

Furthermore, I almost feel like I have been conned into liking Tyrion, what with his sympathetic POV. Whenever I read Tyrion’s chapters nowadays, I can’t help but note and be repelled by his pettiness, his possessiveness with respect to Shae, his self-delusion and self-pity, and his unwarranted sense of superiority. If it was GRRM’s intention to have the reader initially like a character who eventually turned out to be awful, then I say bravo, but somehow I suspect that isn’t the case.

Finally, I have a short comment regarding Sansa’s journey. It might seem neat for Sansa to progress from a young girl enamoured of handsome knights and princes to a woman who can appreciate the beauty hidden beneath a rough exterior, but I wonder if that might not be too neat for GRRM. Sansa’s journey has been one of growing complexity, and complexity does not permit elegant inversions. What I mean to say is that it might not be so simple that Sansa comes to love Sandor for his decency, but that she may actually still be repulsed by his appearance. Sandor lingers in Sansa’s imagination, but in our fantasies, it is easy to forget what disgusts us; reality is a constant reminder, one that might still make a relationship between Sansa and Sandor impossible.

[Dr. Pepper]

1. Sandor, while a complex and intriguing character, is entirely unsuitable as a romantic partner to anyone, much less Sansa. Sandor is an emotionally unstable murderer and abuser; even if he calmed down, he would still be guilty of terrible crimes. While he is a pathetic creature in many ways, this does not excuse his serious shortcomings. Because of this, it baffles me that people would want to wish Sandor upon anyone as a romantic partner.
   

I don't want to comment on either side of the argument for the SanSan ship because I really haven't developed my own opinion about it. I do have a disagreement with this part of your argument.

I disagree because it seems as though you are saying that those who have committed grievous crimes can never be redeemed or be worthy of love and forgiveness and can never experience any sort of positive growth. If someone who has committed terrible crimes cannot hope to become a better man, worthy of respect, forgiveness and honor, then does that mean that someone who was always good is always worthy of respect and can never do anything cruel and terrible? A person's past shouldn't just be erased from history when or if they change. But I think a person's present is more important in deciding who they are and what they are worthy of.

[1234567]

@ Daidalos

Re-reads are amazing for what they do to your perception of a character. Ned is another example of a character I loved that I now quite dislike to a degree.

The relationship between Sandor and Sansa would never be an ideal outcome for her character, but it is attractive as an idea because she likes him and given how much she has been traded around for her wife potential, it would be nice for her to choose someone herself. However I think it maybe a repercussion of how badly she was treated in KL, that she does think so fondly of people like Sandor.

If you have read Jamaica Inn,

then Sandor and Sansa ending up together would be very similar to that book where the heroine gets the man she loves, in full awareness that by choosing him over the safety of her other options, she is letting herself in for a potentially tough life. However at the end of the day it is her choice. Whoever Sansa ends up with, I hope she has a relationship inside or outside of marriage that is her choice.

[Lyanna Stark]

Am I the only one wondering this: if SanSan were to happen, wouldn't it undo all the learning Sansa's been doing about the romanticism of chivalry? Part of me wants her to "get" that the Hound is the most chivalrous man she knows, but part of me (and I think Sandor is with me here) wants her to "get" that chivalry is bullshit. I'm kind of afraid that if they reconnect, it'll be about the first lesson, and not the second.

He may be chivalrous in some things, but hardly at all in others. If we're looking at saving her from the riot or lying for her, then yes, but on the other hand he's also making inappropriate comments, he's far too rude, crude and blunt. I don't think any therapy in the world could change that he's not a gallant, courteous sort of person.

Ultimately, chivalry is concerned not only with actions, but also with surface and appearance and adhering to the proper rituals of knighthood. Sansa's journey so far has mainly centered around looking at substance, not surface, so in that regard Sandor doesn't clash with her crushed notions of chivalry.

Brashcandy wrote the other day that Sandor is part of Sansa's link to her Stark identity, and with Stark comes the North. In the North, they have no knights. Yet we see the mountain clans motivated to fight for "Ned's little girl" so it seems the North can manage fine without knights and chivalrous ideals and still manage to embody some of the (more sensible) ideals of knighthood, just without the frippery and the empty courtesy.

As a sidenote, did anyone else notice that Sandor has been armoured in the Stark colour ever since the beginning? He's described as wearing "plain grey armour".