Which of the following Monarchs would you serve?

[Darth Rivers]

I agree with you that it was a very good and intelligent victory on Stannis' part. I'm not sure I would call it brilliant. I think his actual brilliance is in being able to cultivate such deep loyalty and love among his force that they will follow him despite insurmountable odds.

Finally someone get's my point. Have an imagined cookie.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

For the record, I've never specifically condemned Stannis's use of treachery to achieve victory. It's his use of black magic that concerns me. I know you all think nothing of it, but I'm of a very different mind.

The fact that he used it to kill a better man than himself is also rather unfortunate, it must be said.

But our point is, Dany also got her dragons through black magic. That's OK, why?

[Dr. Pepper]

Rubbish.

If Stannis had said "Bend the knee or I'll slay you with this shadowbaby", I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Stannis did tell Renly he would kill him if he didn't bend the knee. Dany didn't exactly tell the Astapori to give her the slave army for free or else she'd make her dragon burn out their eyeballs.

[Dr. Pepper]

For the record, I've never specifically condemned Stannis's use of treachery to achieve victory. It's his use of black magic that concerns me. I know you all think nothing of it, but I'm of a very different mind.

The fact that he used it to kill a better man than himself is also rather unfortunate, it must be said.

No one has said Stannis' use of black magic is awesome and good. No one is denying that black magic is bad. We're just pointing out the inconsistency with people thinking Stannis' use of black magic was bad while Dany's use of it was good.

[S N Black]

Dany or Stannis. I like their sense of justice. They have strong leadership and do what they do because of duty and honor, not because they are power hungry or necessarily want the position.

[Sevumar]

For the record, I've never specifically condemned Stannis's use of treachery to achieve victory. It's his use of black magic that concerns me. I know you all think nothing of it, but I'm of a very different mind.

The fact that he used it to kill a better man than himself is also rather unfortunate, it must be said.

Stannis's use of shadow assassins to kill Renly and to take Storm's End really troubled me in Clash.

But I don't think that Renly was the better man. Easier to get along with? Yes. More charismatic? Yes. But he seemed lacking in substance. He would've been a great figurehead whose rule would only have succeeded with a skilled Hand who was free to administer the realm.

[Kittyhat]

Rubbish.

If Stannis had said "Bend the knee or I'll slay you with this shadowbaby", I wouldn't have a problem with it.

I confess it's interesting that we are bothered each by very different aspects of that scene. ;)

But this thread is taking a decidedly nasty turn. I think I'm going to try to force myself to resist the urge to reply anymore here. Best of luck if you're sticking around!

[Gingerly Grumkin]

@Apple

That's silly, Dragons are eating and breathing smart animals that have existed for thousands of years. Besides, if that's dark magic then so is Summer killing Wildlings, Nymeria killing Mummers, and Greywind killing beyond countless men and finding hidden trails so they butcher hundreds including a nobel Lannister in his sleep.

Besides, Shadowbabies are awesome

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

For the record, I've never specifically condemned Stannis's use of treachery to achieve victory. It's his use of black magic that concerns me. I know you all think nothing of it, but I'm of a very different mind.

The fact that he used it to kill a better man than himself is also rather unfortunate, it must be said.

I guess changing the subject didn't work this time.

Renly being a better man than Stannis is not a 'fact'. He only had a greater chance for victory.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

@Apple

That's silly, Dragons are eating and breathing smart animals that have existed for thousands of years.

That doesn't change the fact that Dany's dragons came about when she burned another human being alive.

Besides, if that's dark magic then so is Summer killing Wildlings, Nymeria killing Mummers, and Greywind killing beyond countless men and finding hidden trails so they butcher hundreds including a nobel Lannister in his sleep.

I'm not following. Was any human being murdered to bring about the direwolves?

Besides, Shadowbabies are awesome

That's your opinion, one, thankfully, I don't think most Stannis fans share.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

@Apple

That's silly, Dragons are eating and breathing smart animals that have existed for thousands of years. Besides, if that's dark magic then so is Summer killing Wildlings, Nymeria killing Mummers, and Greywind killing beyond countless men and finding hidden trails so they butcher hundreds including a nobel Lannister in his sleep.

Besides, Shadowbabies are awesome

The dragons themselves aren't considered dark magic, it's the way Dany hatched them that's considered dark magic.

I confess it's interesting that we are bothered each by very different aspects of that scene. ;)

But this thread is taking a decidedly nasty turn. I think I'm going to try to force myself to resist the urge to reply anymore here. Best of luck if you're sticking around!

The thread has become admittedly one sided, but only because you have not provided a convincing argument regarding your opinions of Dany, but seem to attack everyone's conflicting opinions if her.

But I understand.

[Faint]

I'd not be so concerned with Stannis in any case. He is sure to pay for his crimes eventually; the shadow babies, posing as Azor Ahai, his dependence on Melisandre -- all of it. I say let him have his moment in the spotlight before it all comes crashing down in a storm of fire.

[butterbumps!]

For the record, I've never specifically condemned Stannis's use of treachery to achieve victory. It's his use of black magic that concerns me. I know you all think nothing of it, but I'm of a very different mind.

The fact that he used it to kill a better man than himself is also rather unfortunate, it must be said.

Actually, I and a few others on here said that we didn't like Stannis' use of black magic. I generally like Stannis, he's my second choice for monarch, but I still acknowledge that the shadowbabies are a sore spot for me. I do not like them. However, this is in no way an excuse for shadowbabies, but I have to point out that whereas people needed to get burned for dragons, a shadow baby requires sexual intercoursing, and if there's any silver lining, they murdered their targets humanely.

[Sevumar]

I'd not be so concerned with Stannis in any case. He is sure to pay for his crimes eventually; the shadow babies, posing as Azor Ahai, his dependence on Melisandre -- all of it. I say let him have his moment in the spotlight before it all comes crashing down in a storm of fire.

Only the first is really a crime, and that can be framed in terms that Renly used earlier in the series to try to justify murder of others. Posing as Azor Ahai doesn't really hurt anybody, it just makes him look bad when/if the "real" AA ever reveals himself. Everyone has unsavory characters in their camp.

[Kittyhat]

The thread has become admittedly one sided, but only because you have not provided a convincing argument regarding your opinions of Dany, but seem to attack everyone's conflicting opinions if her.

But I understand.

And I would content that none of their arguments are even remotely convincing, and indeed never have been and are just the same tired arguments I've lost interest in even reading really. So we'll just have to disagree on that point.

That's not the reason I want to bow out of the argument, though.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

I'd not be so concerned with Stannis in any case. He is sure to pay for his crimes eventually; the shadow babies, posing as Azor Ahai, his dependence on Melisandre -- all of it. I say let him have his moment in the spotlight before it all comes crashing down in a storm of fire.

I agree that Stannis will or has suffered for his participation in the use of black magic, and I also believe Dany suffered after she first used dark magic, but I have yet to see her pay for the dragons.

[JKeats]

My view on shadow assassins is that they are somewhat analogous to unmanned aerial vehicles (aka drones) the US has been using these past few years.

By that I mean the use of such tools, even in service of just causes - and here I realize there is much room to debate the justice of a cause, in our world as well as in ASOIAF - raises important questions. But as troubling as drones and shadow assassins are, I do not think they are pre se evil.

I'm not prepared to enter a deeper discussion on this just now, certainly not in this thread, but I would say that the ethics of Melisandre's shadow assassins is not a settled question in my mind. I could go either way on them.

[Two Towers]

Why does so many people ignore the fact that Stannis doesn't know about the shadowbabies? He has remain ignorant, willfuly perhaps, but ignorant nevertheless

[Sevumar]

But as troubling as drones and shadow assassins are, I do not think they are pre se evil.

I think a large part of what troubles me about shadow assassins is that they are outside the "usual" methods of warfare. In a world where magic is in full swing, perhaps combatants would expect to see their equivalents more often, but Renly and his knights of summer expected to die on the field facing their enemies with weapons in hand.

While Stannis's use of the assassins preserved the men who might have died in that battle, it also took an action that is usually reserved for pleasure or procreation and turned it into the means of murder.

[Lady Tippy Wolfsbane]

And I would content that none of their arguments are even remotely convincing, and indeed never have been and are just the same tired arguments I've lost interest in even reading really. So we'll just have to disagree on that point.

That's not the reason I want to bow out of the argument, though.

i never said their arguments were convincing, and your option of them has nothing to do with my post. My point was that if you don't agree...fine, but you can't get upset and flame people when they disagree with you.