Seattle reading, any details?

[4rcane]

"One of my favorite questions was about Howland Reed. A woman asked if his children might know anything about what happened at the Tower of Joy. He scoffed a little and said he couldn't tell us that, but then admitted "yes, the Reeds may know some things."

The Reed children definitely know. When they were telling Bran the story of the Laughing Tree, Bran asked what happened next and one of the Reed said its a much sadder story

[Ghost714]

Why so much hate for Victarion? I understand he is not the sharpest sword in the armory, but I still find his chapters to be entertaining. By all accounts Victarion seems to be a good Captain, and he knows his killing, so I guess that's enough to make him worth reading for me.

I do not buy any of these ideas, that Victarion is dead, or possessed, and under Moqorro's control. Why would Victarion need to be dead, or possessed to be under Moqurro's control? Moqorro is completely capabable of controlling him alive, and unpossessed. Besides, if Victarion were dead or possessed, and "completely" under Moqorro's control(like 100%), then he would not be threatening Moqorro and stuff, like he often does. If Moqorro were completely controlling Victarion, then there is no way he would allow Victarion to talk badly of R'hllor, or highly of the Drowned god. Moqurro has done a fantastic job of lulling Victarion into a false sense of security, he has done everything to make Victarion trust him, and that's how he has been controlling Victarion, and that's how he will continue to control him.

Another thing I do not understand, and that is all the belief in Euron. I agree that when it was just Victarion, Euron might have still been in control of what was going on, but that's no longer the case, now that Moqorro is in the picture. Although, part of me believes that Euron did not think it possible for his brother to betray him. So part of me thinks that Euron was just counting on that, to make sure Victarion did what he was asked. I would not put it past Euron to believe that his psychological hold on Victarion makes it impossible for Victarion to betray him. However, that might not be the case, Euron might have had a plan to make sure Victarion would not fuck him. In my opinion though, even if Euron did have a plan to make sure Victarion didn't gain control of Dany and her dragons, that plan is irrelevant now. There is no way Euron could have known about Moqorro, and even if he some how found out about Moqurro, it still would not matter, Euron is no match for The Black Flame. Moqurro is way smarter than Euron, and Moqorro has the big advantage of knowing about Euron, while most likely, Euron has no clue about Moqorro, and we do know for sure, that Moqorro knows about Euron. One of the first things Moqorro said to Victarion, was a comment about Victarion being strangled by the Krakens tentacles, and he said that Victarion did not see the strings that made him dance(paraphrasing). At which Victarion replied by foolishly saying he is no mans puppet.

In short, there is no way that Euron is coming out of this the winner, now that Moqorro is in the picture. Any deception Euron might have planned, Moqorro will see in his flames.

So I really do not see anybody besides Dany getting control of Dany's dragons. Moqurro is a Red Priest of R'hllor from Volantis, and the Red Priests in Volantis believe Dany to be Azor Ahai, so there is no way Moqorro will allow anything to happen to Dany's dragons. Moqorro will believe that Dany's dragons are essential in stopping the Others, and the great Other, so he is super motivated to say the least.

[Fire Eater]

There were some new details that weren't there, courtesy of my wife skylark:

Victarion

The horn is an actual horn from a dragon. Bigger than Balerion.

Victarion is feeding the horn his own blood from his black fire hand. He's doing this to bind it to him, so that when the horn is blown the dragons will go to him.

Victarion's black fire hand - the one that was injured - appears to be significantly magical. It still is black and charred, but now smokes with his rage. One of the details was him putting on all his armor and clutching his fist while saying 'he pities any many who tried to stand before him on this day' and smoke rises from his gauntlet.

The three thralls might be important but it's not clear. One is a bastard's bastard, one is the young one, and the third wasn't clear. The young one speaks a lot, and Victarion normally would beat him but he's likely to die anyway.

The three thralls have been promised freedom and a ship if they survive after the blowing.

He fingerbangs the dusky woman as he doesn't want to spend himself before battle. Yeah, that would have been fun to hear in person.

Tyrion:

Tyrion is trying to convince Plumm to switch sides...again. The best argument (he makes many) is that Dany will forgive him because it'll be his turncloaking that seals the battle.

One of the other commanders apparently tried to buy Tyrion when he was on the blocks as a slave. she wears a breastplate with a harpy on it. Skylark thinks her name was Melaza.

Penny advised Tyrion to lose some times when playing Cyvasse, but Tyrion can't; Tyrion thinks that if he's not clever all the time, his value will be nothing and no one will want him.

Tyrion notes that Dragons don't care about sides and are very fickle when it comes to burning and eating people.

Brown Ben thinks that Dany will take back Mormont - especially with Tyrion.

Melaza is the Girl General who fancies herself to be Yunkai's Dany, and commands 100 slave soldiers wearing only breechclouts with long bronze shields with erotic inlays.

Victarion heard Moqorro say to him "I see the glory that awaits you" like Victarion told the bedslaves before he put them onto a fishing boat to be burned as sacrifices.

[Wouter]

Victarion heard Moqorro say to him "I see the glory that awaits you" like Victarion told the bedslaves before he put them onto a fishing boat to be burned as sacrifices.

That's a great observation! Hopefully, Victarion will get his comeuppance for his cruelty and his "glory" will end up similarly for him as for the girls he had burned.

[CrypticWeirwood]

That's a great observation! Hopefully, Victarion will get his comeuppance for his cruelty and his "glory" will end up similarly for him as for the girls he had burned.

Don’t forget the boys he had drowned.

[woweezowee]

Why so much hate for Victarion? I understand he is not the sharpest sword in the armory, but I still find his chapters to be entertaining. By all accounts Victarion seems to be a good Captain, and he knows his killing, so I guess that's enough to make him worth reading for me.

A lot of people seem to have strong moral objections to his behaviour, which I personally find a bit peculiar given what other characters are allowed to get away with (throwing a child out of a castle window is okay so long as you feel a bit depressed and introspective a few books later, etc). He's an arsehole (or 'asshole', if you prefer), but an entertainingly ridiculous one, and his ADWD chapters were amongst my favourites in that book.

[Jolene Brown]

I just don't like Victarion because he seems so dumb. He's also more of a caricature than the rest of the characters. I like "entertainingly ridiculous" in its time and place, but it doesn't mesh well with a lot of the rest of this series, for me. Jamie/Theon, two characters who do get away with tons and tons in my heart, are so well-written and carefully characterized - by contrast, Victarion is just such a cartoon to me.

[Ghost714]

A lot of people seem to have strong moral objections to his behaviour, which I personally find a bit peculiar given what other characters are allowed to get away with (throwing a child out of a castle window is okay so long as you feel a bit depressed and introspective a few books later, etc). He's an arsehole (or 'asshole', if you prefer), but an entertainingly ridiculous one, and his ADWD chapters were amongst my favourites in that book.

Exactly.

Despite Victarion being an asshole, I found his chapters to be very entertaining. I love it when Victarion will say things like "hold your tounge Priest", or "if you lie to me I will kill you my self", despite Moqorro being far to powerful to be killed by someone like Victarion.

And really, despite Victarion sacrificing those whores, he really has not done that many "horrible" things. I have seen people who love the Crows Eye, despite everything he has done, or Theon, or Tywin, but when it comes to Victarion, he is just a "monster", and "he needs to be eaten by Dany's dragons". I don't get it.

[bemused]

Are you making a distinction between Girls and whores ? Hideous death whatever one was trained to do..

It's Victarion's poutiness and self -pity , on top of his violence that make him unlikeable.

[Rose and Thorns]

It also comes back to the idea that a viewpoint character never dies in their own PoV chapter other than the prologue/epilogue.

The Red Wedding is told from Cat's point of view. This might be the exception though!

[Ghost714]

Are you making a distinction between Girls and whores ? Hideous death whatever one was trained to do..

It's Victarion's poutiness and self -pity , on top of his violence that make him unlikeable.

No I was not making a distinction between girls and whores. Victarion did not just sacrifice girls, it was also males to. So by saying whores, I covered both the females, and the males he killed, because they were all whores bound for Lys.

I don't really find Victarion to be that "pouty", at least not anymore pouty than most. Everybody is pouty about something in the story, at one time or another, Asha, Theon, Jon, Tyrion etc...

So again, I think Victarion gets judged unfairly when it comes to most fans, because really there are many more violent than him, and more pouty than him.

[IKE]

I love it when Victarion will say things like "hold your tounge Priest", or "if you lie to me I will kill you my self", despite Moqorro being far to powerful to be killed by someone like Victarion.

How is Moqorro too powerful to be killed by Victorian? Vic is the captain of the lead ship with a fleet of loyal iron born, in the middle of the sea. Moqorro could be killed easily. On a galley the captain is king. Walk the plank! No one talks to Victorian like that. Vic isn't that linear, I enjoy his inferiority complex. When he kills the trader for laughing about his mistaken thought of the Dorthraki sea as being made of water. .

Vic is stupid, as GRRM stated. He's also aware of it. It's his primary purpose in wanting to betray Euron, his wife is just one of many examples wheres he's been duped by elder siblings.

I as well don't understand all the hating on the Greyjoys. They're a hostile, sacrificial religious troupe sure. But there's plenty of that going around in Westeros already.

[Tourniquet]

I just don't like Victarion because he seems so dumb. He's also more of a caricature than the rest of the characters. I like "entertainingly ridiculous" in its time and place, but it doesn't mesh well with a lot of the rest of this series, for me. Jamie/Theon, two characters who do get away with tons and tons in my heart, are so well-written and carefully characterized - by contrast, Victarion is just such a cartoon to me.

I think thats why hes so great. We spend so much time pondering over these novels and ticking and tieing every small detail, getting to read a Vic chapter with a simple ass-kicking dumb as an aurochs pirate is a hell of a lot of fun!

[Ghost714]

I think thats why hes so great. We spend so much time pondering over these novels and ticking and tieing every small detail, getting to read a Vic chapter with a simple ass-kicking dumb as an aurochs pirate is a hell of a lot of fun!

That's exactly it, that's why I find Victarion's chapters to be entertaining. There is just something refreashing about them. Don't get me wrong, I love the crazy complicated aspect of aSoIaF, but every now and again, it's fun to just read about the crazy ass kicking pirate.

[Nebmai]

Yes, I agree Vic's chapters are a breath of fresh air. He is a simple, violent and skilled man; he is an important piece for a true player of the game of thrones to have, I like the breaking up of the narrative with a piece rather then a player. GRRM has done this a few times throughout the books *cough*SansaTheonNedSamwellAreo*cough* but I find Vic to be an entertaining one. He's very devout to his violent religion, he's good at what he does and he does know his limitations for the most part but he is not a total automaton like the Mountain or the Bastard of Bolton.

[Ghost714]

Yes, I agree Vic's chapters are a breath of fresh air. He is a simple, violent and skilled man; he is an important piece for a true player of the game of thrones to have, I like the breaking up of the narrative with a piece rather then a player. GRRM has done this a few times throughout the books *cough*SansaTheonNedSamwellAreo*cough* but I find Vic to be an entertaining one. He's very devout to his violent religion, he's good at what he does and he does know his limitations for the most part but he is not a total automaton like the Mountain or the Bastard of Bolton.

Well put, my thoughts exactly.

[Kalbear]

Victarion is about as sympathetic as Gregor clegane. He's a rapist, a murderer, a torturer and a sadist. If he's sympathetic then anyone can be.

[Miriel]

Victarion beat his wife to death because she and Euron had had sex. If he was really the BAMF so many seem to think he is, why didn't he beat Euron to death?

[Fire Eater]

Victarion beat his wife to death because she and Euron had had sex. If he was really the BAMF so many seem to think he is, why didn't he beat Euron to death?

In AFfC, he said "I would have killed him [Euron] too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall."

[Miriel]

In AFfC, he said "I would have killed him [Euron] too, but Balon would have no kinslaying in his hall."

Right. I was asking the question in more of a rhetorical fashion. My point was, Vic has some problems. He could have found some way to deal w/ crazy old Euron, but instead he just beat his wife to death.