What is the Official Bolton Narrative of the WOTFK?

[Tagganaro]

Good point. I've always taken it as a bald-faced lie that the other Lords are forced to swallow due to the hostages and the Bolton/Frey alliance being as powerful as it is. Like for example Manderley seems to have always known what happened at the RW, he was just biding his time for his son to get released to safety. Now that Jaime has demanded the release of the Frey hostages, I have to imagine that the Umbers of the world will not follow them anymore. It seems to be almost common knowledge that the Boltons played a part in the RW, just no one willing or able to do anything about it so long as the Freys have the hostages and the Bolton/Frey alliance has as many troops (and "Arya"). ONce those 3 gloves drop I'd have to imagine it's all over for the Boltons and Freys.

[Swordsaint]

There weren't any traps set, you're right that's a bad explanation. It doesn't change the fact that what the book describes is not unbelievable in the slightest. It doesn't need explaining beyond what the book tells us.

Also, its Corps, not Core.

20-30 men dying while out numbered four or five to one in a place with no land advantage or defensive preparation is extremely unbelievable to me. The book says what is it says, it doesn't mean I'm obligated to find it realistic. These were not wildlings fighting on two fronts with a 700 foot wall infront of them an no armor, or steel weapons. These were knights and fighting men sent from every house in the north with steel and cross-bows. As I originally said, I do not find it hard to believe Ramsey won, I find it hard to believe he won while taking that few casualties.

[E-Ro]

20-30 men dying while out numbered four or five to one in a place with no land advantage or defensive preparation is extremely unbelievable to me. The book says what is it says, it doesn't mean I'm obligated to find it realistic. These were not wildlings fighting on two fronts with a 700 foot wall infront of them an no armor, or steel weapons. These were knights and fighting men sent from every house in the north with steel and cross-bows. As I originally said, I do not find it hard to believe Ramsey won, I find it hard to believe he won while that few of casualties.

Men no matter how well trained usually dont fight to the death they run when things go badly. And we dont know how many casualties the bolton men took i always assumed they were not light. The bolded part i agree with if not for the bastard the ironborn would have been repulsed easily, and robb would be in a much better position.

[Swordsaint]

Men no matter how well trained usually dont fight to the death they run when things go badly. And we dont know how many casualties the bolton men took i always assumed they were not light. The bolded part i agree with if not for the bastard the ironborn would have been repulsed easily, and robb would be in a much better position.

It does say in the book. “How many men did you lose?” Theon asked Red Helm as he dismounted.

“Twenty or thirty.”

My only guess is that once the fighting started Rodrik's men ran off right away. That is why the OP started this post. I think he makes a really good point. It could also be the reason why Stannis has never seemed worried attacking Winterfell. GRRM is probably going to fill in the gaps next book.

[Independent George]

Okay I'll give you that, but it also makes the hole in the story bigger. Ramsey was in his full Dread Fort armor (pink cloak and all) and even lifted his visor to show his face. So that's 1800 north men who know what happened at Winterfell...

They also have to worry about Bolton's own 600. That's the difficult part for me to believe about some of these secret plots - these aren't professional soldiers. They're not zealots. They're conscripts - commoners left behind by Bolton and ordered to take up arms - and they like to talk. There is no such thing as operational security in this situation. Word should be out.

[SerMixalot]

I picture Ramsey pointing at the Cassel host and yelling

"Tonight we dine in hell!"

[Vympel]

Wait, who says word isn't out? Lord Manderly knows the Boltons are lying about what happened at Winterfell, after all. The point is not what the North knows or doesn't know - its about doing something about it.

They speak of wargs and skinchangers and assert that it was Robb Stark who slew my Wendel. The arrogance of it! They do not expect the north to believe their lies, not truly, but they think we must pretend to believe or die. Roose Bolton lies about his part in the Red Wedding, and his bastard lies about the fall of Winterfell. And yet so long as they held Wylis I had no choice but to eat all this excrement and praise the taste.

EDIT: there is a subtle point here that I only recently picked up on - the North wouldn't even be in a position to respond to Bolton and Frey BS - had Jaime not pressed for the release of northern prisoners like Wylis.

[E-Ro]

It does say in the book. “How many men did you lose?” Theon asked Red Helm as he dismounted.

“Twenty or thirty.”

My only guess is that once the fighting started Rodrik's men ran off right away. That is why the OP started this post. I think he makes a really good point. It could also be the reason why Stannis has never seemed worried attacking Winterfell. GRRM is probably going to fill in the gaps next book.

hmmmmm.... interesting, they must have been taken by complete suprise and just run off instead of fighting, I dont know perhaps its just a plot hole.

[E-Ro]

They also have to worry about Bolton's own 600. That's the difficult part for me to believe about some of these secret plots - these aren't professional soldiers. They're not zealots. They're conscripts - commoners left behind by Bolton and ordered to take up arms - and they like to talk. There is no such thing as operational security in this situation. Word should be out.

For the most part yes they are proffesional men at arms, anyone in mail and mounted is proffesional. A farmer cannot afford mail unless its taken from a dead enemy. But that does not matter becaus profesional soldiers talk as well not sure why them being proffesional or not matters when it comes to them talking all it takes is one drunken bout of boasting and the story is out.

[Grail King]

This indeed be a terrific question!

But what does "WOTFK" stand for?

I always forget the shorthand

[Winterfell is Burning]

For the most part yes they are proffesional men at arms, anyone in mail and mounted is proffesional. A farmer cannot afford mail unless its taken from a dead enemy. But that does not matter becaus profesional soldiers talk as well not sure why them being proffesional or not matters when it comes to them talking all it takes is one drunken bout of boasting and the story is out.

Yes, I agree.

Frankly, overall the whole Ironborn/Northern plot in ACOK feels forced, more of a "GRRM wants X to happen, so X will happen", rather than "X is a natural progression of the story". Balon choosing to attack the North, Theon taking Winterfell so easily, Ramsay's coup working so perfectly, etc.

Also, to the poster that said that to win the battle you only need to kill 10% of the opposite force- not in this type of battle, because it wasn't enough for then to win the battle, but to wipe out the entire Cassel forces, otherwise someone would talk.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Also, to the poster that said that to win the battle you only need to kill 10% of the opposite force- not in this type of battle, because it wasn't enough for then to win the battle, but to wipe out the entire Cassel forces, otherwise someone would talk.

Oh well, that is probably the reason why there is such a large number of survivors join Stannis and rumours run all over the place... The Boltons didn't manage to wipe them out.

[E-Ro]

Frankly, overall the whole Ironborn/Northern plot in ACOK feels forced, more of a "GRRM wants X to happen, so X will happen", rather than "X is a natural progression of the story". Balon choosing to attack the North, Theon taking Winterfell so easily, Ramsay's coup working so perfectly, etc.

Yes, it feels very forced but there is nothing we can do about it, if the ironborn did not attack the north we would have a very different story, and It would not be as interesting.

[Ragnorak]

Frankly, overall the whole Ironborn/Northern plot in ACOK feels forced, more of a "GRRM wants X to happen, so X will happen", rather than "X is a natural progression of the story". Balon choosing to attack the North, Theon taking Winterfell so easily, Ramsay's coup working so perfectly, etc.

The idea seems to be that Balon, rather than blame the Robert (through his "descendant") who put down his rebellion and ordered Theon taken hostage, or the Lannisters who actually killed his two older sons, he blamed Ned for "stealing" his son. It is almost as if Ned raising Theon well was the greatest offense of all to Balon-- he turned him from a hostage into a Stark. I had to get through several Iron Island chapters and get a better feel of who they were before Balon started to make sense. I thought the HBO Balon portrayal did a much better job of conveying him and his motives. I remember wishing Balon came across that clearly on my first read as I watched it.

[E-Ro]

The idea seems to be that Balon, rather than blame the Robert (through his "descendant") who put down his rebellion and ordered Theon taken hostage, or the Lannisters who actually killed his two older sons, he blamed Ned for "stealing" his son. It is almost as if Ned raising Theon well was the greatest offense of all to Balon-- he turned him from a hostage into a Stark. I had to get through several Iron Island chapters and get a better feel of who they were before Balon started to make sense. I thought the HBO Balon portrayal did a much better job of conveying him and his motives. I remember wishing Balon came across that clearly on my first read as I watched it.

But still, if he is a true reaver he would want more gold/food and valuables attacking the north gained him literally nothing. Did he really think if the lannisters beat robb they would let him be a king? Asha came out and said it at the kingsmoot Balon is the biggest joke ever.

[Peasant with No Story Arc]

The idea seems to be that Balon, rather than blame the Robert (through his "descendant") who put down his rebellion and ordered Theon taken hostage, or the Lannisters who actually killed his two older sons ..

I don't know if it's fair to Balon or not to mention it, but:

His father jabbed a finger at his face. "Not here, not in Pyke, not in my hearing, you will not name him brother, this son of the man who put your true brothers to the sword. Or have you forgotten Rodrik and Maron, who were your own blood?"

"I forget nothing." Ned Stark had killed neither of his brothers, in truth. Rodrik had been slain by Lord Jason Mallister at Seagard, Maron crushed in the collapse of the old south tower … but Stark would have done for them just as quick had the tide of battle chanced to sweep them together.

I don't recall the timeline so I don't know if Balon had received the letter from Stannis about Joffrey being illegitimate. If he hadn't, yes, he's supporting Robert's son against Ned's son, the son of the King who forced him to bend the knee against the son of the man who took Theon as his ward. If he had, maybe it's a double victory for him to side with a King who isn't a Baratheon but it's still the Lannister side, nine years after he burned their fleet at Lannisport. Why should he expect anything from them? Whatever I have to say about how little sense the Bolton narrative makes, imagine trying to explain Balon's strategy to future Greyjoys.

[Ragnorak]

But still, if he is a true reaver he would want more gold/food and valuables attacking the north gained him literally nothing. Did he really think if the lannisters beat robb they would let him be a king? Asha came out and said it at the kingsmoot Balon is the biggest joke ever.

By "Balon making sense to me" I didn't mean I agreed with him. "Here's your son back. How about you be King and we both kill the one man who will try and take your crown? You remember, that guy who killed your two sons. Oh, and after we take his stuff you get to keep the land and the gold mines." "Screw that, I want the pine cones and some abstract revenge against a guy that's dead already."

I just meant I understand the twisted anger and self loathing inside that made him choose pine cones over gold mines.

ETA: Stand corrected. I thought both Balon's sons died fighting al Lannisport.

[Dareaper]

Two points ill make, one on topic one off:

1) Balon was a fool. But you also have to look at the ironborn culture to know why he would not pf accepted Robbs offer, even if he was not a vengful idiot. Balon ask Theon if he paid the iron or the gold price for his stuff. Balon would of felt that robb allowing him to be king of the iron islands and rule lannisport was him paying the Gold price. So he chose the hadrer path, i don't think his full strategy or idea was completed. He nate dto be king in his own right, by forcing the others to pay the iron price. Ironborn don;t buy what they want.. they take it. My guess is the north area he took was a stepping stone, and theon in his arrogance kinda threw a wrentch into that idea.

2) The north remembers is what is told to Davros. The north knows full well what the Boltons and the Freys did. But as said before they are just biding there time. Also Ramsey ambushing the other army is very easy to see happening, and i'm sure a ton of people fled.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yes, it feels very forced but there is nothing we can do about it, if the ironborn did not attack the north we would have a very different story, and It would not be as interesting.

Oh, I agree- we wouldn't have Theon's awesome ADWD chapters.

[andrewside]

The main reasons that Roose can just claim command of the North:

1) No real Starks can be confirmed to be alive/found after Sansa flees after Joffrey's wedding

2) The North is a mess with winter coming, an Ironborn attack

3) Most of the fighting men are disorganized in the Riverlands or randomly returning home

4) A majority of the Northern lords or their kin are dead or captive after the Red Wedding

With no armies or leaders and general confusion, the North could be controlled by anyone with an army and a plan