Why did they feel the need to change so much in TV for Season 2?

[Crown]

He didn't have to kill that completely fictional character. The show writers wanted to make their mark, so they add dumb characters like Aton and have Jaimie slay him so his redemption arc is more engaging. Basically a slap in the face to Martin and book readers which is a power HBO gives them.

D&D also seem to hate Jon as a character and shows with the way they write him.

Probably. They made Jon look like a complete incompetent idiot.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

IMO, they've cut/changed so much in s2, that they should seriously consider adding 2 episodes a year. It's not as though there isn't enough source material over the next three books.

Hopefully doing that would keep the writers from gutting the story like they've done so far: qarth and river run I'm pointing at you!

[King Tommen]

He didn't have to kill that completely fictional character. The show writers wanted to make their mark, so they add dumb characters like Aton and have Jaimie slay him so his redemption arc is more engaging. Basically a slap in the face to Martin and book readers which is a power HBO gives them.

NERDRAGE alert! You've got some serious issues clearly. For one, Alton Lannister was not a completely fictional character. He's Cleos Frey (who was also a distant Lannister cousin who was the go-between for Robb and Cersei's messages). The producers changed his name so that they did not need to explain how a Frey (a Tully bannerman supposedly loyal to Robb) was fighting on the Lannister side because of a bunch of lineage and marriage relationships.

In the books, Cleos dies arbitrarily with Brienne and Jaime while escaping and in the show, he dies arbitrarily as part of Jaime's escape plan. I still don't get why people are so wrapped up with the fact that Jaime killed the guy and how that isn't in character for him. This is of course the same guy who callously tossed a 10 year old out a window without a second thought. They established that Jaime didn't even remember who this distant cousin was and had no affinity for him. He looked at him simply as a pawn to be used as a means to an end. I think that it was a great way to illustrate (just as when he pushed Bran) how far he would go to be with Cersei. I'll agree that he could have probably thought of a better plan to escape but as far as Jaime being willing to sacrifice this guy as a way to get back to Cersei, I think it's completely consistent.

Book readers sometimes have a hard time reconciling what they think of a character after reading 5 books worth of their arc as opposed to where the character is right now on the show in terms of emotional state and maturity. It happens with Jon too. These characters will evolve as we go along to become the ones you know and love after ADWD I'm sure.

[Dragon greyscale]

Well put. I'd like to add that "completely fictional" is an absolutely meaningless adjective in this context (adapting one fiction to another fiction). It tells me more about the poster's bias than about the character he/she is discussing.

[boojam]

IMO, they've cut/changed so much in s2, that they should seriously consider adding 2 episodes a year. It's not as though there isn't enough source material over the next three books.

You find HBO an extra 10 or 20 extra million bucks a year and I am sure they would be glad to add the staff and resources D&D need for two extra episodes!

[King Tommen]

You find HBO an extra 10 or 20 extra million bucks a year and I am sure they would be glad to add the staff and resources D&D need for two extra episodes!

From what I've heard from D&D, it's not even a matter of money as much as time. Based on all of the pre-production, multiple shooting locations, wrangling of large cast and extras, CGI work and post-production needed, they can only logistically get 10 hours of finished product done in time for the season to start when they need it to. It's a gigantic operation with a scope that is unrivaled even amongst other HBO shows. Short of delaying the start of seasons for many months, I don't think they can produce more than 10 episodes/season even if they wanted to.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

You find HBO an extra 10 or 20 extra million bucks a year and I am sure they would be glad to add the staff and resources D&D need for two extra episodes!

Right, because HBOs bevy of smash hit shows+subscription fees can't cover it...they need me to help find more money for 2 more episodes per season.

[RottenAppleFossoway]

From what I've heard from D&D, it's not even a matter of money as much as time. Based on all of the pre-production, multiple shooting locations, wrangling of large cast and extras, CGI work and post-production needed, they can only logistically get 10 hours of finished product done in time for the season to start when they need it to. It's a gigantic operation with a scope that is unrivaled even amongst other HBO shows. Short of delaying the start of seasons for many months, I don't think they can produce more than 10 episodes/season even if they wanted to.

Now that sounds like a much more logical issue with adding 2 eps. per season. As expensive as the show is to make, I guarantee HBO could afford it.

[King Tommen]

Now that sounds like a much more logical issue with adding 2 eps. per season. As expensive as the show is to make, I guarantee HBO could afford it.

Yeah, seeing as there are many HBO shows that contain 12-13 episodes per season, I don't think it's a matter of choice to limit GoT to 10 per season but a necessity. I'm going to take D&D at their word that it just isn't possible to produce more than the 10 hours they currently do per season.

[DragonsHungry]

How is it realistic for a Middle Age setting? I can't recall a single medieval King who anything similar to what Robb did. No king would ever even consider marrying a woman who gives him no political or military advantages in a middle of a war at a cost of breaking a prior engagement which gave him a whole army which he desperately needed. Any examples to prove me wrong?

I think one of the closest was Henry VI. Henry VI married Margaret of Anjou, whom the people of England detested because her father the Count of Anjou was rather poor and she did not bring much of a dowry. Margaret who became the Lancastrian Leader was very unpopular with many, she was the perfect PR target of the Yorkists. Margaret was a formidable politician and strategist, she was raised like Anjou women to be strong, but she was an outsider Queen to England, always seen as a foreigner, and in the end lost.

Margaret was "perceived" as advantageous for Henry VI to make peace with France and end the 100 years war, never mind most of his countryman opposed that notion because the English nobles didn't want to give up their lands and ransoms in France, English soldiers liked having work, and it was a blow to english pride. Margaret also brought in a number of unpopular relatives to court and like many of that day, the spoils of rule went to her clique.

It was a stupid marriage for Henry VI in reality, it gained him no dowry, his people disliked it, it added to the domestic turmoil from the loss of the Hundred Year War, and contributed to starting the Wars of the Roses. Henry VI should have married someone for a more tangible alliance and gain.

That is about the closest likely from that period of English history.

I agree, most medieval kings wouldn't consider what Robb Stark did, it would be foolish really.

Again, GRRM is a writer in our modern age, the TV show is produced for a modern audience, so there wouldn't be a perfect portrayal of that time period. A writer or TV producer needs to tell a story through a certain lens, which is filtered by their experiences and culture.

If this was a real medieval story, it would likely be way more depressing and stomach turning, there would be no "heroes" to root for, just an entire cast of ruthless pricks who would all be like villains. There would be no character like Tyrion at all, and female characters like Sansa, Daenrys would likely have more depressing ends (ala Joan of Arc, Margaret of Anjou. Isabella of France, etc.) due to gender bias of the age (not a good selling point for the female demographic).

They have to make some things in a modern lens so people keep watching. Its about ratings and cost-benefit. Art is dependent on money, even Willie Shakespeare knew that truth.

I don't care if they change some details from the books, even if they are big changes, as long as it is good and pulls in the ratings.

I just like Game of Thrones continuing, as most of TV is unwatchable sitcom or crime drama garbage. You once in awhile strike gold like "Lost" or "Walking Dead", but much of TV is crud. Whatever it takes to keep this show on the air, I am all in favor of them doing.

[rohit39]

Everyone here crying over Jaime's portrayal in season 2 should really keep in mind that Jaime's redemption only started around the time his hand got chopped off. That, coupled with his sympathy for Brienne (in a weird supercilious way) and finally Cersei's betrayal. As of season 2, or ACOK, he is the still the callous, arrogant, over confident, incestuous Lannister.

[Le Cygne]

We see in the first chapter of ASOS (which takes place just days after his last scene in ACOK) that Jaime has been thinking about what he's done in the past quite a lot. I believe what really spurred the change was being apart from Cersei's influence (I'm not blaming her for his actions, but he was very easily led by her). And he had been apart from her quite a while at this time.

He was looking out for Brienne and his cousin (who went along with them during the part of the journey we have seen so far on the show) in the book from the start. He shouted a warning to protect his cousin, and later told a white lie to his aunt about his bravery to spare her feelings. Jaime very much identified with the Lannisters (too much, in fact) and so the show change was out of character for him.

It was also just a very bad plan. I would have preferred the more characteristic and meaningful plan from the book. Tyrion devised a plan involving Jaime's sword fighting skills (that would have been nice to see). One side in a war attempting to break out a prisoner of another side. And Jaime's speech to Catelyn is compromised by the show escape attempt:

“So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his. But obey your father. Love your sister. Protect the innocent. Defend the weak. Respect the gods. Obey the laws. It’s too much. No matter what you do, you’re forsaking one vow or the other.”

He's attempting to justify his actions here. He protected the people of King's Landing, his father, his brother, his sister, his children. He's saying there's more to these stories than meets the eye. And if they keep in a certain scene from later in book 3, he expands on this, when he's talking to Brienne.

What he did to Alton Lannister on the show doesn't fit.

[Jaime's Wench]

Everyone here crying over Jaime's portrayal in season 2 should really keep in mind that Jaime's redemption only started around the time his hand got chopped off. That, coupled with his sympathy for Brienne (in a weird supercilious way) and finally Cersei's betrayal. As of season 2, or ACOK, he is the still the callous, arrogant, over confident, incestuous Lannister.

He was never callous. Arrogant and over-confident, yes, (and still is, at times) but not callous.

I was majorly hacked off by the scene where he killed his cousin. I am also hacked off that it's Nicolaj's favourite scene of the series, which shows he does not understand the character he is playing whatsoever (I know some actors choose not to read ahead... but I think in this case, it was essential to understand who Jaime actually is). There is no way, on Earth, that real!Jaime would have killed his own cousin in some hair-brain scheme to escape. He would do what he actually did, which is cut down some of his imprisoners... but then, so might I! If the producer's intended to remind us of how much we're supposed to hate him, then well done... But really, isn't chucking Bran out the window enough?

Similar feelings about how Brienne killed the Stark men. It doesn't bode well for my favourite story arc in Season 3. I'm actually more looking forward to Tyrion's story arc and the RW, as a result. (Save, of course, the moment in Harranhal's baths)

[Le Cygne]

Same here, with Brienne. She also killed the Rainbow Guards on the show, and she didn't do that in the books.

The push and pull between them, she wanting to be a knight, he wanting honor, he knows things about the first she doesn't know, she knows things about the second he doesn't know, and they learn from each other, is gone, along with "wench" and "kingslayer".

[boojam]

What he did to Alton Lannister on the show doesn't fit.

And you know... David Benioff and D. B. Weiss , who just seem like genius teleplay writers , concept developers and all round super show runners ... either never explain story additions or re-constructs ... but sometimes they do ... then their rational sounds either absolutely brilliant or badly thought out... such as the Dany and Qarth story which seems one quarter quite clever and three quarters lame.

I sure hope , like the first season, they spend more time thinking things through, for the third season than they did the second.

[Jolene Brown]

I was majorly hacked off by the scene where he killed his cousin. I am also hacked off that it's Nicolaj's favourite scene of the series, which shows he does not understand the character he is playing whatsoever (I know some actors choose not to read ahead... but I think in this case, it was essential to understand who Jaime actually is). There is no way, on Earth, that real!Jaime would have

I agree with this so much... I think NCW does a great job, but I do think that info in ASOS is so important in terms of giving insight into Jaime's real state of mind in AGOT and ACOK when we only see him through other people's eyes. All of what we learn in ASOS tells us about who Jaime has always been all along and what is going on at a subconscious level even in the Jaime of AGOT and ACOK. I wish someone had told NCW that.

However, I also think his performance is generally really strong and I think they have briefed him on the most important info about his character from ASOS - from interviews, it's obvious he knows Jaime's real reasons for killing Aerys, for example, and always has. I mostly blame the writing for my issues with the Alton scene - I just don't think it really makes a lot of sense, and they had better options.

[Khal-a-bunga]

Personally, I took the scene where Jaime killed Alton in an attempt to escape as a means to either free himself, or to end his time as a prisoner by forcing their hand to execute him. He's said several times throughout the series that he would take a quick, clean death over disability or imprisonment (when speaking to Tyrion about Bran in episode two; he also says something along those lines in the episode we're discussing), and if killing a distant relative and the son of one of the Stark banner-men doesn't do it, then... I guess it felt more like a decision based on, "Either I'm escaping or they're going to have to kill me" moment.

That said, I think NCW does, in fact, get his character very well. From the interviews he's done to his performance on-screen, you can see it. Just because a scene that you didn't like happens to be his favorite doesn't mean that he doesn't "get" Jaime - maybe it was a particularly memorable day for him as an actor, and that's why it's his favorite. Seems kind of harsh to go that far simply because he enjoyed filming that scene.

[Currawong]

That said, I think NCW does, in fact, get his character very well. From the interviews he's done to his performance on-screen, you can see it. Just because a scene that you didn't like happens to be his favorite doesn't mean that he doesn't "get" Jaime - maybe it was a particularly memorable day for him as an actor, and that's why it's his favorite. Seems kind of harsh to go that far simply because he enjoyed filming that scene.

A point I was going to make too. That was actually a very long scene where NCW had to carry the entire thing, and I could see that as an actor, he would have relished the challenge of playing the complexity of it. And I think he 'gets' Jaime very well - don't forget that he has to be very careful with his comments about his role and the character's development, so as not to give any spoilers for non-book readers.

I agree that Book Jaime would not have killed a relative like that, but the problem stems from the much larger plot decision not to show anything at Riverrun in Season 2, with Jaime and Catelyn travelling with Robb's army (they had to show Robb on-screen, rather than have him virtually disappear as he did in Book 2). Once that decision was made, they needed to find another suitable escape plot for Jaime, so that we got the Karstarks' anger and so on.

Also, for both Book Jaime and Book Brienne, so much of their characters is only revealed through their internal POV thoughts, which can be very hard to translate to screen. Certainly, Brienne's inexperience at killing is one aspect of this, but when you re-read the relevant parts of the books, Jaime himself does not know that she has never killed. As at the end of ADWD, he still doesn't know about that issue for her! Indeed, even we as readers have absolutely no idea about this aspect of her character until we get to Brienne's POV in AFFC. And of course, she doesn't tell anyone about it: we only get her inner perspective. What both Jaime and the readers see in ACOK and ASOS is a strong and capable woman warrior, who was quite decisive and brutal enough to hurl a boulder onto a boatload of soldiers, and who proved to be a very capable swordsman. I think this was why they had the Season 2 scene with her killing the Stark men. It's also important to remember the other things shown in that scene which do follow the books or distill important characteristics from the books - the mockery Brienne sustained from other people about her warrior status, her concern for the dead women and the proper treatment of their corpses, and the fact that when it comes to fighting and action, she and Jaime do actually 'get' each other. So Book Jaime's quick understanding of what she was about when she swam ashore to hurl the boulder down became TV Jaime's quick invention of the pig-stealing story. If the writers want to show Brienne's essential vulnerability and inner gentleness, they may decide to have her 'confess' this to Jaime at some stage during Season 3. Or else bring it up in some other way that can be shown on-screen.

[Masamune]

In the books, Cleos dies arbitrarily with Brienne and Jaime while escaping and in the show, he dies arbitrarily as part of Jaime's escape plan. I still don't get why people are so wrapped up with the fact that Jaime killed the guy and how that isn't in character for him. This is of course the same guy who callously tossed a 10 year old out a window without a second thought. They established that Jaime didn't even remember who this distant cousin was and had no affinity for him. He looked at him simply as a pawn to be used as a means to an end. I think that it was a great way to illustrate (just as when he pushed Bran) how far he would go to be with Cersei. I'll agree that he could have probably thought of a better plan to escape but as far as Jaime being willing to sacrifice this guy as a way to get back to Cersei, I think it's completely consistent.

WRONG.

See, you can't take these two instances out of context based on their most basic premises and then somehow compare them.

Jaime pushed Bran out of the window because he had little choice. Trusting a ten-year old to keep his mouth shut when loose lips could see you and your sister/lover sent to the gallows is a suicidal risk to take. It was an act of self-preservation. We can argue the morality of it till we're blue in the face but it certainly wasn't a gratuitous act of violence.

When it comes to the 'Alton scene', they betrayed the character for the sake of sensationalizing violence. Having Jaime knock the guy out cold and leave him face-down in the mud would've easily sufficed and stayed true to the source material. Instead, he savagely bashes the guy's skull in like something out of Irreversible.

Too bad, as well. Because it was a great scene up until that point.

[King Tommen]

WRONG.

See, you can't take these two instances out of context based on their most basic premises and then somehow compare them.

Jaime pushed Bran out of the window because he had little choice. Trusting a ten-year old to keep his mouth shut when loose lips could see you and your sister/lover sent to the gallows is a suicidal risk to take. It was an act of self-preservation. We can argue the morality of it till we're blue in the face but it certainly wasn't a gratuitous act of violence.

When it comes to the 'Alton scene', they betrayed the character for the sake of sensationalizing violence. Having Jaime knock the guy out cold and leave him face-down in the mud would've easily sufficed and stayed true to the source material. Instead, he savagely bashes the guy's skull in like something out of Irreversible.

Too bad, as well. Because it was a great scene up until that point.

Whatever gets you through the night my friend. The lengths that some fans will go to rationalize Jaime's behaviour with Bran is sometimes astounding. It wasn't an act of desperation and I have no idea how anyone would pick that up from reading that chapter or watching the scene on the show. I'm sure that's what he felt was the most effective way to remedy the situation but it's not like there weren't other options they could have attempted that didn't include him immediately tossing a 10 year old to his death. Even Cersei chastises him afterwards about it. If it was an act of desperation, you probably would have seen some kind of remorse or hesitation from him during the act or afterwards but you didn't. Because the Jaime Lannister pre-getting his hand cut off doesn't really give a shit about the fates or feelings of anyone outside of the very small group of people he cares about. And he loves and is devoted to Cersei so the majority of his actions are about him being with her. Christ, on the show he even had a smirk on his face as he did it. That's not desperate, that's callous, cold and calculating.

I guarantee you that no member of the audience thought any less about Jaime after he killed Alton than they did already because what he did to Bran was 10x.worse. Alton was presented as an extraneous character whose role was to be a pawn in Jaime's escape attempt. Getting nitpicky about whether Jaime should have actually killed him or not as part of his ruse is an argument about the intelligence of his plan rather than the motivation behind it. And I would agree that there were probably other options that could facilitate his escape than killing Alton but in his head, I guess he thought (just like with Bran) that this was the most efficient way to get the job done. Perhaps he didn't think he'd actually get a guard to come in the cage with him unless he was seen throttling Alton to death, who knows? I didn't lose any sleep over it anyways.

I actually think it's great to show that Jaime is so dangerous and callous because it sets up his journey with Brienne and how much the audience should be on edge about whether Jaime will be able to find the right opportunity to make his move and whether he would go to the lengths of killing her as he has others in the attempt. It's a nice piece of suspense to set up.

Don't worry. Jaime will get his redemption arc starting this season and the fact that he killed Alton won't alter things one iota in terms of the way the audience will be able to buy it. They've already given him the great "They make you swear all kinds of things..." speech and he'll get plenty of time this season with Brienne to convey his side of the argument about why he is the way he is and give us all more insight into his character. I think the people making such a big deal about this particular scene are just generally way overboard when they say things like it ruins his character. That's hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole and these are the type of people who should probably stop watching the show because shit like this is going to happen pretty constantly and just give you conniptions on a regular basis.