The Wonders Of Being A Woman In The World Of ASOIAF

[Lady Lea]

- Respect. The other day I passed a woman on the street who was trying to drag her pierre cardin baby carriage (so she was not someone you would consider 'lowborn') down the stairs to the subway underpass. SIX men walked past without as much as asking if she needed help. That would never happen in ASOIAF.

ngl, I lol'd. In France men carried my heavy luggage for me up those ridiculously long metro stairs all the time. And people say the French are rude...

[RhaenysBee]

ngl, I lol'd. In France men carried my heavy luggage for me up those ridiculously long metro stairs all the time. And people say the French are rude...

In Vienna, Russian guys carried our baby carriage up the stairs to the railway. (I was babysitting in Vienna last summer). I don't have any particularly good or bad experiences from France. Oh, the bodyguard at Notre Dam offered chocolate for my sister, if she stopped wailing.

I understand your intentions and I'll leave you to it - but the reason this thread ticks off so many people is because it sounds like those conversations that people say "life was so hard for women in [the middle ages, or the 60's, or whenever]" and someone goes "yes but at least we dressed better and didn't have to work". Working is a good thing. And besides, being a housewife/lady of a castle isn't "not working". Wearing nice clothes doesn't really make up for all the rest.

All the supposed good things about being a woman in Westeros - clothes, having people do your hair, having servants - you can have all these things today. If you have money. Just like in Westeros.

Yeah, I never said you couldn't. Do all this stuff today if you had money. You can.

And I don't say it makes up for it, I just say that usually in our own lives we are happy about small things. Like a nice walk. Or a nice dress. Or a pleasant afternoon with chatting with friends. And I never said they didn't have to work. Raising five children even with septas and wetnurses around is HARD work. Running a household is hard work. It's not like they were sitting around all day. And maybe I'm sentimental or shallow but when I go to the bus stop or to get a taxi I always walk through this small park with the small chapel in the back of the house. And when the sun is shining and birds are singing and dogs are chasing pigeons and the trees are blooming and old ladies go to the chapel and music comes out, that always makes my day. No matter how bad it gets, I always smile when I think of the morning. I'm not trying to degrade political issues and marriage problems to the level of buying dresses. I'm just saying that these are the good things in life. When you look into the mirror and spun around in the Marc Cain dress and hell it fits everywhere just perfectly. Remember Sansa? So yeah, you can be happy. Small things make you happy. Whatever...

[SerMixalot]

I just rolled in, so forgive the typos.

@Ser Mixalot, this is for you:

I should post it in the Masculinity thread, i.e. how men in Westeros need to learn to lick the alphabet.

I actually tried this technique but got nothing more than laughs

i guess i shouldnt take my sex advice from stand up comedians

[Lady Lea]

In Vienna, Russian guys carried our baby carriage up the stairs to the railway. (I was babysitting in Vienna last summer). I don't have any particularly good or bad experiences from France. Oh, the bodyguard at Notre Dam offered chocolate for my sister, if she stopped wailing.

Yeah, I never said you couldn't. Do all this stuff today if you had money. You can.

And I don't say it makes up for it, I just say that usually in our own lives we are happy about small things. Like a nice walk. Or a nice dress. Or a pleasant afternoon with chatting with friends. And I never said they didn't have to work. Raising five children even with septas and wetnurses around is HARD work. Running a household is hard work. It's not like they were sitting around all day. And maybe I'm sentimental or shallow but when I go to the bus stop or to get a taxi I always walk through this small park with the small chapel in the back of the house. And when the sun is shining and birds are singing and dogs are chasing pigeons and the trees are blooming and old ladies go to the chapel and music comes out, that always makes my day. No matter how bad it gets, I always smile when I think of the morning. I'm not trying to degrade political issues and marriage problems to the level of buying dresses. I'm just saying that these are the good things in life. When you look into the mirror and spun around in the Marc Cain dress and hell it fits everywhere just perfectly. Remember Sansa? So yeah, you can be happy. Small things make you happy. Whatever...

That's your prerrogative - and I told you I understood what you meant by the thread. :) I just wanted to explain why it turned into "being a woman in Westeros is terrible" thread.

[mormont]

[mod] Whatever your position on this topic, please don't make it personal, and specifically don't make it about the person who is disagreeing with you. Also, please keep your posts directly relevant to the topic of women in Westeros. Compare and contrast is fine, but discussion of women's place in modern society isn't. [/mod]

[courser]

I would really argue that the level of autonomy that exists for women in Westeros isn't that bad. There are issues with who you get to breed with if you have money and your value as chattel but a small percentage of women were powerful noble women. Mostly they were lower class...

I would go so far as to argue that if you pulled a woman out of the middle ages and forced her to live in our world... lots of us don't have help with child care (don't live close to family), a large proportion of us work in jobs that we don't see the value in our labour (we don't make anything we just push paper around), we struggle to make the rent or mortgage payments etc... she would be aghast at the level of scrutiny that goes on and the level of answering to the 'man'...but also would totally identify with the stressors of our everyday lives.

And with the divorce rate at the level that is... love matches are less successful than arranged marriages... so where is the joy in finding your own love.

And as far as I've read no one has touched on the freedom that the Septa's probably enjoy. Similar to nuns of the middle ages where women who either couldn't find a husband or who didn't want one went to... they could learn to read and engage in behaviours that would be unthinkable outside of the nunnery.

edit: not really an edit but I posted this just as the above warning was posted... opps!

[SerMixalot]

Donating sperm and being cannon fodder; that's all you're needed for. Have we now sufficiently proved the idiocy of ad hominem attacks?

How come I find it so easy to fall in love with strangers on blogs like this?

OT-Westeros women got it tough.

Edmure Tully anticipating his bride like a kid on xmas morning was quite funny BTW

[Lady Lea]

And with the divorce rate at the level that is... love matches are less successful than arranged marriages... so where is the joy in finding your own love.

Well if there was no divorce and people had to stand each other until one finally died, how can you measure success in those marriages?

[RhaenysBee]

That's your prerrogative - and I told you I understood what you meant by the thread. :) I just wanted to explain why it turned into "being a woman in Westeros is terrible" thread.

Yeah, I understand. And I also understand what you wanted to explain. I didn't mean any offense, your comment was really nice and level headed and objective :)

[courser]

Well if there was no divorce and people had to stand each other until one finally died, how can you measure success in those marriages?

Not really the point I was making... the point is that with love matches there is no guarantee that you will chose any better for yourself than your father/mother/aunts/uncles would. It's all a crap shoot!

I'm not arguing for arranged marriages just pointing out that success is not dependent upon personal autonomy...rather luck! I have a couple of friends who have arranged marriages and feel that their marriages are super successful. Now their parents consulted them about the choices and they had some say at to whether or not they would marry the prospective suitor but I would suspect that would be rather common even in Westeros.

[Ravenhair]

How come I find it so easy to fall in love with strangers on blogs like this?

OT-Westeros women got it tough.

Edmure Tully anticipating his bride like a kid on xmas morning was quite funny BTW

You are so right; Edmure was almost giddy when he saw Roslin so much so that once he got her behind closed doors, he didn't hear or notice that his entire family was being murdered.

xoxo to you

[mormont]

Nobody likes to be ignored, people. But at least when you're a mod you can delete their posts. ;) ON-topic posts only from now on please.

[Kittykatknits]

I understand your intentions and I'll leave you to it - but the reason this thread ticks off so many people is because it sounds like those conversations that people say "life was so hard for women in [the middle ages, or the 60's, or whenever]" and someone goes "yes but at least we dressed better and didn't have to work". Working is a good thing. And besides, being a housewife/lady of a castle isn't "not working". Wearing nice clothes doesn't really make up for all the rest.

All the supposed good things about being a woman in Westeros - clothes, having people do your hair, having servants - you can have all these things today. If you have money. Just like in Westeros.

Also, way to make assumptions about Kitty. And, jsyk, abortion isn't legal everywhere. It's a crime where I live.

Wonderfully stated Lady Lea. Thank you.

In Vienna, Russian guys carried our baby carriage up the stairs to the railway. (I was babysitting in Vienna last summer). I don't have any particularly good or bad experiences from France. Oh, the bodyguard at Notre Dam offered chocolate for my sister, if she stopped wailing.

Yeah, I never said you couldn't. Do all this stuff today if you had money. You can.

And I don't say it makes up for it, I just say that usually in our own lives we are happy about small things. Like a nice walk. Or a nice dress. Or a pleasant afternoon with chatting with friends. And I never said they didn't have to work. Raising five children even with septas and wetnurses around is HARD work. Running a household is hard work. It's not like they were sitting around all day. And maybe I'm sentimental or shallow but when I go to the bus stop or to get a taxi I always walk through this small park with the small chapel in the back of the house. And when the sun is shining and birds are singing and dogs are chasing pigeons and the trees are blooming and old ladies go to the chapel and music comes out, that always makes my day. No matter how bad it gets, I always smile when I think of the morning. I'm not trying to degrade political issues and marriage problems to the level of buying dresses. I'm just saying that these are the good things in life. When you look into the mirror and spun around in the Marc Cain dress and hell it fits everywhere just perfectly. Remember Sansa? So yeah, you can be happy. Small things make you happy. Whatever...

I get your point, I really do. Those are small moments that add joy to life. It's the stop and smell the roses type stuff. But, here is what I and many other posters struggle with. The things that lead to ultimate happiness in life and an internal sense of fulfillment are not those things. It's agency, control over your future, and the ability to pursue your interests, not to spend your life under the control of a patriarchal figure. But, that is precisely what we see happening over and over again in Westeros.

Martin, through his incredible variety of female characters, has shown just what happens to women in this type of culture. For a woman, one of her most basic and powerful decisions that she will make in life is whether or not to bear children and to pick the father. Yet, this is denied to her. Women, due to their gender, are given less of an education. Cersei, by being able to disguise herself as her twin, learned this quite clearly and it had a permanent influence on her. A woman's worth is defined largely via her youth and beauty on the marriage market, bonus points if they have a claim or dowry. Brienne shows us what happens to woman who are not traditionally beautiful. Cersei, in her thirties, is considered old and washed up. Sansa has been turned in to a piece of meat in the marriage market. So, yes, absolutely these are individual cases, but they show just what this culture does to women.

We know less about the lives of common folk but there is information available that tells us something. In some places, Lord's First Night is still practiced. They are subject to the whims of their lords and others in the nobility. If war comes, they may not have to fight, but they are very vulnerable in a rape culture. Jaime even thinks on it in Feast, even the best of men rape while at war, it's just what they do. So, they may have more freedom over their choice of husband, in many other ways, their life is pretty miserable.

When you have your most basic agency stripped from you, focusing on these small moments comes off as hollow and it feels like its missing the point of what is happening.

[SerMixalot]

You are so right; Edmure was almost giddy when he saw Roslin so much so that once he got her behind closed doors, he didn't hear or notice that his entire family was being murdered.

xoxo to you

i blush

wrt to edmure, been there done that got the medical records to prove it

[Ravenhair]

I just find it weird to apply statistics and facts from our world into a world where seasons can last decades, humans can take control over animals and dragons rule the skies. There are plenty of things in ASoIaF that doesn´t really work if you start looking at the actual numbers, so I don´t think it´s entirely valid to make a direct comparison.

Oh, you're so right because of course there's nothing remotely like medieval England in these books; there isn't a monarchy; certainly no wars among strong, power families; no political alliances made by marriage; no knights; no armor or weapons; no castles, garrisons, battlements, or sieges; no dying from "childbirth fevers;" no writing on parchment, etc. The books mention none of these; I think they take place on Mars in 3000 AD. How silly of me to use statistics, or for that matter any information about the Medieval period and apply it to these futuristic, space books.

[Ravenhair]

I just saw the note about on topic posts , and I must go back to the hair. If you are a highborn woman, how nice for someone to do your hair every day.

[RhaenysBee]

Wonderfully stated Lady Lea. Thank you.

I get your point, I really do. Those are small moments that add joy to life. It's the stop and smell the roses type stuff. But, here is what I and many other posters struggle with. The things that lead to ultimate happiness in life and an internal sense of fulfillment are not those things. It's agency, control over your future, and the ability to pursue your interests, not to spend your life under the control of a patriarchal figure. But, that is precisely what we see happening over and over again in Westeros.

Martin, through his incredible variety of female characters, has shown just what happens to women in this type of culture. For a woman, one of her most basic and powerful decisions that she will make in life is whether or not to bear children and to pick the father. Yet, this is denied to her. Women, due to their gender, are given less of an education. Cersei, by being able to disguise herself as her twin, learned this quite clearly and it had a permanent influence on her. A woman's worth is defined largely via her youth and beauty on the marriage market, bonus points if they have a claim or dowry. Brienne shows us what happens to woman who are not traditionally beautiful. Cersei, in her thirties, is considered old and washed up. Sansa has been turned in to a piece of meat in the marriage market. So, yes, absolutely these are individual cases, but they show just what this culture does to women.

We know less about the lives of common folk but there is information available that tells us something. In some places, Lord's First Night is still practiced. They are subject to the whims of their lords and others in the nobility. If war comes, they may not have to fight, but they are very vulnerable in a rape culture. Jaime even thinks on it in Feast, even the best of men rape while at war, it's just what they do. So, they may have more freedom over their choice of husband, in many other ways, their life is pretty miserable.

When you have your most basic agency stripped from you, focusing on these small moments comes off as hollow and it feels like its missing the point of what is happening.

And I understand all that. Yet, since there are hundred thousand threads going on about that, I wanted to concentrate on the rose here :(

Anyway, Catelyn felt content. There are women who feel content with this. And for those who don't, there are possibilities. Asha... Nymeria... Sand Snakes...Daenerys...Arya... I'm just saying that all this is true, yet I have no problem with believing that - people are different - there are ones who feel content by all this stuff. Having a husband, having kids... Control. Control is a part of our lives. Always was, always will be. But I'm not going into this, I'm off topic, already. Control is when mods decide whether you are off-topicing in your own topic ;) I so understand Cersei now. Only for now. (Uh, I'm joking here, before anybody would feel offended...)

[Ser_Patreck]

I apologize in advance, but you are being a patronizing ass. I have read the books three times and am quite familiar with Septon Meribald's speech about why we should pity the broken man. It's a very moving speech, one cited by many as their favorite passage regarding the effects of war on the "common-born." It details the ravages of war upon those common men called upon to fight them. Please explain to me, a mere woman who knows little of the ways of these books, how the fuck you think this speech in any way diminishes the effects of war upon common women who are raped and killed during war. Why don't you, dear Ser_Patreck, review what Elder Brother later says to the group about the woman at Saltpans who was raped a dozen times to her death? Let me refresh your recollection. Elder Brother tells Septon Meribald he's glad that the Septon is there to provide forgiveness to Ser Quincy Cox, who barred his gates when the outlaws came and the townspeople screamed, because he COULD NOT. As the saying goes, war is hell. It's hell for all, men and women. However, thank you for stating your preference of being raped, then killed during war rather than dying on the battlefield. Me, a mere woman knowing little of the ways of these books, I would rather die on the battlefield any day of the week, and you never know--I may be given that very chance.

Edited for one tequila typo

A woman would never went through what Septon Meribald did. I pointed that out. But if your only answer to "men suffer this, women don't" is "Yeah, but women have it worse in A, B, C..." I can't really debate with you. Oppression Olympics isn't something I'm very good at, by choice.

And I'd thank you if you didn't put words in my mouth.

EDIT: Clarifying - It was asked what was good about being a woman in Westeros. One of those things is not being liable to be hauled off your home to go fight a war you don't care for or don't want to fight for. It isn't that hard to understand.

[SerMixalot]

And I understand all that. Yet, since there are hundred thousand threads going on about that, I wanted to concentrate on the rose here :(

Anyway, Catelyn felt content. There are women who feel content with this. And for those who don't, there are possibilities. Asha... Nymeria... Sand Snakes...Daenerys...Arya... I'm just saying that all this is true, yet I have no problem with believing that - people are different - there are ones who feel content by all this stuff. Having a husband, having kids... Control. Control is a part of our lives. Always was, always will be. But I'm not going into this, I'm off topic, already. Control is when mods decide whether you are off-topicing in your own topic ;) I so understand Cersei now. Only for now. (Uh, I'm joking here, before anybody would feel offended...)

I think tyrion touches on this when he discusses slavery (to which the women in westeros have much in common), that being a slave can be quite "attractive" when you have the right master. That things like freedom and independence go out the door when compared to starvation and abject poverty (you see this in the aftermath of mereen). This is an interesting observation by GRRM about the human condition.

[SerMixalot]

BTW

War is the sum of all evil.

Bad for men, bad for women. butchered and dehumanized in an army or battle, left behind to worry about your loved one, while raising a family in poverty (with the so called male bread winner), raped if the loser in battle (not to say men cant be raped).

War is the sum of all evil