Who took Catelyn's maidenhood?

[Ran]

She does respond, in a way -- she has enough of Jaime's useless, arrogant, drunken talk and puts an end to the conversation.

But again, Littlefinger is deluded, mistaken, or lying -- those are the only three options.

[A wilding]

If Cat didn't sleep with LF why doesn't she deny it when talking with Jamie? LF is a snake but I don't know him to be delusional.

Clearly you have no experience of women being slandered sexually. If a woman starts denying specific slanders it is frequently considered proof she is a "slut". Contemptuously ignoring it, as Cat did, is almost always the least worst option.

[HopeForSpring]

Littlefinger Littlefinger

Pants on fire

We all know you

to be nothing but a LIAR!

[ManlessFace]

Unless GRRM was having Cat, in her POV, and in her own thoughts, which are available only to the readers, lying to us and herself about to whom she gave her Maidenhead (Ned), then Littlefinger is simply mistaken. Even his exact recounting of the night is explained away by Lysa when she admits to Sansa that she stole into Peter's bed, ignored him calling her Cat, and gave him her maidenhead. This is also why Hoster Tully quickly shipped off Lysa to the Vale with a freshly flushed baby maker after Peter knocked her up, to wed the old and decrepit lord of the Eyrie in the hopes that her womb, which was proven fertile by Littlefinger's little finger, would be enough to secure an heir for Jon and his senile swimmers. Even though Peter styles himself a master of the game and on the generating end of a great many lies and deceits, in this one instance, he was taken advantage of by that crazy bitch Lysa Tully, molested in a drunken stupor, and tricked into bedding the wrong sister.

[Naathi Prince]

I think the scene where Lysa dies makes it clear.

Catelyn is betrothed to Brandon Stark

LF, in love with Catelyn, challenges Brandon to a duel

Brandon humiliates LF

Lysa sneaks into a drunk and drugged LF's bed and sleeps with him

LF believes this to be a sign that Cat truly loves him.

LF's believed his night with Lysa was a night with Cat for years now.

[Dragonfish]

I think the scene where Lysa dies makes it clear.

Catelyn is betrothed to Brandon Stark

LF, in love with Catelyn, challenges Brandon to a duel

Brandon humiliates LF

Lysa sneaks into a drunk and drugged LF's bed and sleeps with him

LF believes this to be a sign that Cat truly loves him.

LF's believed his night with Lysa was a night with Cat for years now.

Lysa slept with Littlefinger for the first time long before Brandon's duel, probably even before Catelyn's betrothal to Brandon was announced. It was on that night that he murmurs Cat's name. That said, it's entirely possible, even likely, that Lysa did sleep with him for a second time while he was recovering from his duel with Brandon.

[HopeForSpring]

The reason I think Littlefinger is just lying is because if he really thought it was true, he might be a little more respectful of her honor and keep his mouth shut about it because he did think he loved her. He might think that she loved him but was in a difficult position... and protected their cherished secret together.

But he so doesn't.

Which is part of why I think he knows it isn't true.

[Arctic Cowboy]

i think littlefinger knows deep down in his subconscious that he never slept with cat. but now, he probably thinks it actually happened because he willed himself into believing it. i think it was a false memory (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_memory_syndrome#section_5). btw, not saying he has FMS (according to the article); it may just be that one "memory" he wants to "remember".

and false memories don't seem to be entirely alien to the series. sansa has her share too: she "remembers" that kiss from sandor, though it never happened.

[Purah]

I've been re-reading for a while now and have been trying to pay a lot more attention to the subtle hints to Petyr's psyche, and yes he's intelligent and meticulous, but I do get the impression that he's a bit unhinged...

i think littlefinger knows deep down in his subconscious that he never slept with cat. but now, he probably thinks it actually happened because he willed himself into believing it. i think it was a false memory (http://en.m.wikipedi...drome#section_5). btw, not saying he has FMS (according to the article); it may just be that one "memory" he wants to "remember".

and false memories don't seem to be entirely alien to the series. sansa has her share too: she "remembers" that kiss from sandor, though it never happened.

:agree: Don't forget that at the point in time we are speaking off, LF was just a love-struck kid, who got hideously drunk trying to drown his sorrows. He was so out of it that The Blackfish had to carry him to bed! When you're that drunk, your memory can be a little bit fuzzy.

On another note, if, like in other posts on this thread, that LF came to believe that Catelyn was only playing him, it does his backstory that much more tragic and sad, as he's become such a bitter, twisted person all because of stupid, pointless teenage drama :(

So I vote for him being deluded...

[Naathi Prince]

I'm pretty sure that LF was just so drunk that he thinks it was Cat instead of Lysa.

[Jaak]

The reason I think Littlefinger is just lying is because if he really thought it was true, he might be a little more respectful of her honor and keep his mouth shut about it because he did think he loved her. He might think that she loved him but was in a difficult position... and protected their cherished secret together.

But he so doesn't.

Which is part of why I think he knows it isn't true.

My reasoning is - if Petyr did not then think it was true, he might not have issued his suicidal challenge to Brandon. But since he did honestly think it true at the time, he did issue the challenge - believing, as songs go, that Catelyn would do her part in giving him her favour.

When she did not, they no longer had an opportunity to have a long chat in private and explain him what she really felt and thought and get at least a suspicion that a different girl may have been in his bed (they were not going to get a confirmation without Lysa´s confession which was not forthcoming).

When he was recovering from his wounds, he tried to make sense of what happened. But Lysa was offering a sensible (if untrue and malicious) explanation - that Catelyn had been just playing with him. It was Lysa who taught Petyr to disrespect Catelyn - supported, for Petyr, by the "facts" of Catelyn´s apparent betrayal. It did not need to occur to Petyr that Catelyn did not actually give him her maidenhead if the idea of Catelyn just playing with him explained everything incl. maidenhead. And in view of Catelyn´s rejection of him, he felt free to accept Lysa´s offers.

After Brandon´s death, Petyr still wrote a long letter to Catelyn - and got no reply.

Years later, when he had got over his hurts, and made some success of his own by being cynical businessman, he no longer felt respect to the girl who had played with him and betrayed him so cruelly - thus he could make his boasts without caring for her honour.

[HopeForSpring]

Years later, when he had got over his hurts, and made some success of his own by being cynical businessman, he no longer felt respect to the girl who had played with him and betrayed him so cruelly - thus he could make his boasts without caring for her honour.

Okay, that is possible, too.

Either way, though, it is one of the smallest most pathetic things he does - going around bragging about taking maiden heads. Its weird and it's creepy, and if he thinks he's telling the truth it is even more damaged. His direct language implies he really does think it makes him important, it isn't relaxed or sophisticated - It's crass and, well, strained. Like he's desperate for it to be real. If he said "we were all very close" wink wink - even that would be more believable to me.

But I concede it is possible he thinks it's true, I just don't think so.

[Im no Ser]

Littlefinger's financing skills were keeping Robert in funds to do what he wanted. He wanted someone who could find money for him, not someone who could keep the books balanced, and Littlefinger obliged.

Not to stray too far OT, but Littlefinger was a *great* Master of Coin. His entire career has been about being able to make money for his social betters. If he couldn't do that he'd still be hanging out with Old Man Kettleblack on the fingers.

When Tyrion is made MOC and he gets a look at LF's books he can barely make heads or tails of them. That fact alone - namely that one of the brightest guys in the books, who has some experience in money management can't follow LF's account books even after getting basically unlimited time to do so - tells us the level of sophistication involved.

But Tyrion also describes what he thinks he sees in the books, and what he is describing is leveraged investing, which would be basically unknown in an agrarian feudal economy like Westeros. LF is taking borrowed money and investing it ("breeding dragons"), in a variety of enterprises, gambling [fn1] that he can get a higher rate of return than the interest on the debt.

LF's modern view of debt also gives him the foresight to buy the debts of some of the Lords Declarant.

And just for the record, I subscribe to the view that LF believes he slept with Cat. He's wrong about it, but it is part of what fuels his narcissistic victim of betrayal self-narrative.

FN1 One of these days I'd like to look at the textual evidence to support the view of LF as a superstitious gambler.

[Jaak]

Not to stray too far OT, but Littlefinger was a *great* Master of Coin. His entire career has been about being able to make money for his social betters. If he couldn't do that he'd still be hanging out with Old Man Kettleblack on the fingers.

Or at Gulltown. His first real achievement was to bring in 3 times as much tolls as the other tax colllectors there.

If he had brought in merely as much as others, he probably would have kept his job - the bulk of officials used to be mediocre at their jobs, excess minor noble second sons put there as favours - Petyr fitted that group. He simply would have been stuck there. He might have failed via incompetence or scandal and fired to be sent back to Littlefinger - but he succeeded, spectacularly.

And he did do better than his "beleaguered predecessor". Jon would have known Robert racked up 6 million dragons debt. He did not blame Petyr - he blamed Robert. How much of the debt was already there when the "beleaguered predecessor" was replaced with Petyr?

[Sera dy Relandrant]

To answer the OP: Eddard of House Stark, Lord of Winterfell, Warden of the North.

[ellisg]

It was Ned. Little Finger was bullshitting. But there's no smoke without fire; he actually took Lysa's maidenhood and got her pregnant, and Hoster Tully had it aborted.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

Catelyn was pretty clear about ned taking her maidenhead. That would be stupid for george to say she was lying to herself or some bull shit. There wasn't any mystery about it she spoke of it a couple times. Petyr is lying and brandon I'm sure would of but never had the chance.

[Kevin VanNatter]

Really, Catelyn has no reason to lie to herself (and readers) in her very own POV. Littlefinger is either lying or deludes himself into thinking he really slept with Cat.

This might seem a bit odd and off topic but I think it is interesting you bring up the POV because if there were one character who I wouldn't trust even if it were directly from their POV, it is Littlefinger. Sometimes I feel like he is a bit deluded-- more than any other character. I trust all of the POV's for the concrete insight they provide to a character's mind but if Littlefinger ever had a chapter, I'd probably be skeptical. Like somehow he crawled out of the pages and managed to manipulate George RR Martin.

[Kolantero]

Imo LF did not take Catelyn's virginity (i believe there would have been an indication of that in her many POVs) and he also know that but he is just lying. LF is smart enough to realize what happened the night he got drunk from the reactions of Lysa and Catelyn to him. Also, i think in Lysa's final scene before she starts "flying", she mentions that night and says that its when she got pregnant so i guess LF knows what happened and just like to brag.

[Jaak]

Imo LF did not take Catelyn's virginity (i believe there would have been an indication of that in her many POVs) and he also know that but he is just lying. LF is smart enough to realize what happened the night he got drunk from the reactions of Lysa and Catelyn to him.

He was stupid enough to challenge Brandon. Therefore, he was stupid enough to believe Catelyn really slept with him.

Also, i think in Lysa's final scene before she starts "flying", she mentions that night and says that its when she got pregnant so i guess LF knows what happened and just like to brag.

No. She mentioned that night to Sansa before Petyr arrived. To Petyr, she did mention her pregnancy, but that was when she nursed him.