Who took Catelyn's maidenhood?

[~LeTargaryen]

It may look like an useless topic (and it probably is) and I don't know if I'm in the right place to discuss such, but I'd like to know who really took Catelyn's maidenhood. In "A Clash of Kings", in some of her thoughts, Catelyn recalls wedding Ned and giving him his maidenhood before sending him to battle, all because it was her duty. However, in "A Storm of Swords", Littlefinger reaveals to Sansa that he took Catelyn's maidenhood, not Ned, So...was he lying? Sorry if I'm being stupid, I was just curious to know the truth.

[chrisdaw]

LF lives in his own fantasy world where Lysa = Cat when it suits him.

[Knight Of Winter]

Really, Catelyn has no reason to lie to herself (and readers) in her very own POV. Littlefinger is either lying or deludes himself into thinking he really slept with Cat.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Ned probably would have realized if Cat weren't a virgin, so if she weren't it would have been mentioned I think.

Poor LF : /

[Ran]

"Be quiet, I haven't given you leave to speak. You enticed him, just as your mother did that night in Riverrun, with her smiles and her dancing. You think I could forget? That was the night I stole up to his bed to give him comfort. I bled, but it was the sweetest hurt. He told me he loved me then, but he called me Cat, just before he fell back to sleep.

That's why Littlefinger believes he deflowered both Catelyn and Lysa -- the first time, he was very drunk, and presumably the room was dark, and both young women looked similar enough, and he wanted Catelyn badly enough... that he believes it was Catelyn he slept with. Or, at least, so we are led to believe. The second time must have been after the duel with Brandon, when Lysa is specifically noted as having taken care of him until he was well enough to be shipped out at Hoster's command.

Of course, there's the assumption here that he genuinely believes he deflowered Catelyn. It may well be that he knows he didn't, but he likes to claim he did (although... I always wondered if Robert knew of LF's claim; I'd like to think he'd do something to the guy impugning the honor of his best friend's wife.)

[kissdbyfire]

It may look like an useless topic (and it probably is) and I don't know if I'm in the right place to discuss such, but I'd like to know who really took Catelyn's maidenhood. In "A Clash of Kings", in some of her thoughts, Catelyn recalls wedding Ned and giving him his maidenhood before sending him to battle, all because it was her duty. However, in "A Storm of Swords", Littlefinger reaveals to Sansa that he took Catelyn's maidenhood, not Ned, So...was he lying? Sorry if I'm being stupid, I was just curious to know the truth.

Littlefinger was drunk, and Lysa got into hisa bed. He thought it was Catelyn, he called her 'Cat', and crazy Lysa never said it was her not Cat. Cat lost her maidenhead to Eddard, but Littlefinger really believe it was her and not Lysa.

to add: I always got the feeling LF really believes it was Cat.

[Gandalf the Grey]

Cat lost her maidenhead to Eddard, but Littlefinger really believe it was her and not Lysa.

ninja'ed

A minute late. Bit slow for a ninja :P

[etu]

Just to plus one everyone else.

Catelyn in her thoughts is vastly most trustworthy than Littlefinger speaking out loud. Like a Ferrari is vastly quicker than a cow. With a broken leg. Stuck in a bog.

edit: Although he might have believed he was telling the truth in this case, I stick to my metaphors anyway... because I like them.

[Jaak]

Look at the Lysa´s talk to Sansa in Eyrie.

As Lysa said, she crept into the bed of drunken Petyr, told him she loved him, gave him her maidenhead - he called her Catelyn, and she did not correct him in the dark.

Petyr´s challenge to Brandon makes perfect sense in the view of the fact that he then honestly believed that Catelyn was who crept in his bed to tell him she loved him.

We have NO evidence that Petyr ever learned or as much as suspected the contrary. When Catelyn refused him her favour and he lost, it merely showed him that she had been playing with him and life was not a song; when Lysa nurded him, she would have omitted to mention their previous encounter, and when he had sex with her knowing she was Lysa, he missed the fact she was no longer a virgin - as many grooms do.

Thus Petyr wound up with a honest and well-founded belief that he had the virginities of both Catelyn and Lysa - which is however incorrect because he was successfully deceived by Lysa. That deceit has never been debunked - Petyr reached the room after Lysa had told that part to Sansa.

[Ran]

We have no evidence that he has an honest, well-founded belief. We can see how he might have one, we can see that he claims one, but we don't actually know.

[Kittykatknits]

Look at the Lysa´s talk to Sansa in Eyrie.

As Lysa said, she crept into the bed of drunken Petyr, told him she loved him, gave him her maidenhead - he called her Catelyn, and she did not correct him in the dark.

Petyr´s challenge to Brandon makes perfect sense in the view of the fact that he then honestly believed that Catelyn was who crept in his bed to tell him she loved him.

We have NO evidence that Petyr ever learned or as much as suspected the contrary. When Catelyn refused him her favour and he lost, it merely showed him that she had been playing with him and life was not a song; when Lysa nurded him, she would have omitted to mention their previous encounter, and when he had sex with her knowing she was Lysa, he missed the fact she was no longer a virgin - as many grooms do.

Thus Petyr wound up with a honest and well-founded belief that he had the virginities of both Catelyn and Lysa - which is however incorrect because he was successfully deceived by Lysa. That deceit has never been debunked - Petyr reached the room after Lysa had told that part to Sansa.

Regarding the bolded part, it's not true that a groom would be able to tell whether a woman is a virgin or not which would be a big negative in this culture where maidenhood is so highly valued. You can do a google search on hymen myths to learn more.

We have no evidence that he has an honest, well-founded belief. We can see how he might have one, we can see that he claims one, but we don't actually know.

I agree, I think it is left ambiguous on purpose. It forces to make the reader wonder how much he believes it and then ask what this means for LF as a character.

[RhaenysBee]

Littlefinger lied, that's all. I don't think he was deluded or tricked by Lysa. You see Lysa thought Littlefinger loved her. So there's no chance he tricked him into thinking he was bedding Catelyn so that she could bed him somehow. Lysa wouldn't do that, she has more pride than that and she envies Catelyn more than that. Littlefinger simply spreads this story about Catelyn to make himself look a man and to make Sansa think it'd just be normal and perfect and natural if she gave him her maidenhead too.

Catelyn was not imagining things when she remembered loosing her maidenhead to Eddard.

Question: Why is it a pervert thing to discuss Sansa's maidenhead, but not Catelyn's? (There was a Sansa's maidenhead thread in which dear fans were raging at the patronizing pervert idea to discuss such)

[mythsandstuff]

Littlefinger lied, that's all. I don't think he was deluded or tricked by Lysa. You see Lysa thought Littlefinger loved her. So there's no chance he tricked him into thinking he was bedding Catelyn so that she could bed him somehow. Lysa wouldn't do that, she has more pride than that and she envies Catelyn more than that. Littlefinger simply spreads this story about Catelyn to make himself look a man and to make Sansa think it'd just be normal and perfect and natural if she gave him her maidenhead too.

The timeline as I perceived it was 1. Duel 2. Petyr is laid up, probably drugged for pain 3. Lysa comes to him 4. Drugged Petyr thinks it was Catelyn when he wakes up the next morning

That way, none of them are really lying - it's just Petyr has a faulty recollection because of the drugs.

Question: Why is it a pervert thing to discuss Sansa's maidenhead, but not Catelyn's? (There was a Sansa's maidenhead thread in which dear fans were raging at the patronizing pervert idea to discuss such)

Really? Cause I just saw a discussion of Sansa's virginity five minutes ago in the current Pawn to Player thread.

Edit: Shit. I forgot about Lysa saying he was drunk.

[RhaenysBee]

The timeline as I perceived it was 1. Duel 2. Petyr is laid up, probably drugged for pain 3. Lysa comes to him 4. Drugged Petyr thinks it was Catelyn when he wakes up the next morning

That way, none of them are really lying - it's just Petyr has a faulty recollection because of the drugs.

Whatever. Then poor little Petyr is not a liar he just thinks he laid Cat. And surely he never mentioned this to her and she never told him it was bullshit.

Anyway, he knows he laid Lysa. What was that then?

Really? Cause I just saw a discussion of Sansa's virginity five minutes ago in the current Pawn to Player thread.

Well I was not talking about the Pawn to Player thread. I never visited that thread, because I don't think Sansa will or should become a Player. As I wrote I was talking about the Sansa's virginity thread... I think it was even locked.

[mythsandstuff]

Whatever. Then poor little Petyr is not a liar he just thinks he laid Cat. And surely he never mentioned this to her and she never told him it was bullshit.

Anyway, he knows he laid Lysa. What was that then?

Well I was not talking about the Pawn to Player thread. I never visited that thread, because I don't think Sansa will or should become a Player. As I wrote I was talking about the Sansa's virginity thread... I think it was even locked.

Whoa. Chill. Not attacking you, just expressing surprise that it was presented as not suitable discussion when I've seen it discussed productively. Maybe it had something to do with tone? I can see how that might be an issue.

Already edited to reflect the gaps in my thinking re: Lysa, drunkenness.

[RhaenysBee]

Whoa. Chill. Not attacking you, just expressing surprise that it was presented as not suitable discussion when I've seen it discussed productively. Maybe it had something to do with tone? I can see how that might be an issue.

Already edited to reflect the gaps in my thinking re: Lysa, drunkenness.

Not presented, I was expressing surprise too, that last time I saw such stuff discussed there was a huge raving about the morality of it.

Otherwise, you are totally right. :blushing: So sorry. I know you were not attacking me, sorry if I attacked you. Didn't mean to. Seriously. I just... always do this to everybody around me, virtually or literally, once a month. So so sorry. I really meant no offense . :blushing:

[mythsandstuff]

Not presented, I was expressing surprise too, that last time I saw such stuff discussed there was a huge raving about the morality of it.

Otherwise, you are totally right. :blushing: So sorry. I know you were not attacking me, sorry if I attacked you. Didn't mean to. Seriously. I just... always do this to everybody around me, virtually or literally, once a month. So so sorry. I really meant no offense . :blushing:

I do it like once a week. It's all good. :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Really? Cause I just saw a discussion of Sansa's virginity five minutes ago in the current Pawn to Player thread.

Edit: Shit. I forgot about Lysa saying he was drunk.

Yep, both Sansa's and Cat's maidenheads (and the possible influence Littlefinger's false tale has on Sansa) have been discussed in the Sansa thread since Sansa is getting info about it from two sources: LF and Lysa, and the information they give is contradicting .

LF tells Sansa that he took Cat's maidenhead, then one two chapters later, Lysa is raving about how she was the one who pretended to be Cat. Since it was just after she tried to shove Sansa out the Moon Door, I am not sure Sansa was really able to process it. It does beg the question tho whether Littlefinger is just posturing or whether he knows. I tend to think the latter, but that he's either trying so hard for wish fulfillment that he tells everyone that anyway, or he just likes to boast.

[RhaenysBee]

I do it like once a week. It's all good. :)

Okay :)

[Howling Mad]

That's why Littlefinger believes he deflowered both Catelyn and Lysa -- the first time, he was very drunk, and presumably the room was dark, and both young women looked similar enough, and he wanted Catelyn badly enough... that he believes it was Catelyn he slept with. Or, at least, so we are led to believe. The second time must have been after the duel with Brandon, when Lysa is specifically noted as having taken care of him until he was well enough to be shipped out at Hoster's command.

Of course, there's the assumption here that he genuinely believes he deflowered Catelyn. It may well be that he knows he didn't, but he likes to claim he did (although... I always wondered if Robert knew of LF's claim; I'd like to think he'd do something to the guy impugning the honor of his best friend's wife.)

I always wondered why Robert kept LF around at all. It's not like LF's financing skills were keeping the the realm out of debt.