Wiki 'Mistakes'

[Free Northman]

It sounds strange to me that someone created a word for an unique item. Usually when something is unique you give it a name. If it is not unique (there are more of it) you create a word for it.

However this and also you arguments are the product of logical reasoning. It is not in books and as far as I know there is no information directly from GRRM. So the only thing we have is a conversation between Jon and Sam. What they are saying is that it may be the same. So I think the wiki should just say that. As there is no other info I do not think it is a good idea to create a separate article for dragonsteel. The redirect does not bother me as the page contains information about (the info being Sam and Jon think it may be the same). Ideally the redirect should go immediately to the paragraph containing this. That way it is immediately clear to the reader that the wiki only references to the conversation.

Fair enough.

As for the name of the steel as being "Dragonsteel". Well, bear in mind that this is probably a translation from the Old Tongue, and the tenth copy of an oral tradition that was handed down word of mouth fashion for thousands of years.

So, if for example the "second Moon" of the Quartheen legend that burned up, cracked open and brought dragons to the earth, also sent a fragment crashing down in Westeros, which contained the metal that Dawn was forged from, I can quite easily see how the First Men of the time called the steel that Dawn was made from "Dragonsteel", as to them it has the same origin as the dragons.

It could quite conceivably be that Valyrian steel that was made thousands of years later was an attempt by the sorcerors of Valyria to replicate the substance that Dawn originated from. Maybe achieving partial success, in that Dawn is still unique and apparently more deadly than a sword made of Valyrian steel.

[TheButcherCrow]

Fair enough.

As for the name of the steel as being "Dragonsteel". Well, bear in mind that this is probably a translation from the Old Tongue, and the tenth copy of an oral tradition that was handed down word of mouth fashion for thousands of years.

So, if for example the "second Moon" of the Quartheen legend that burned up, cracked open and brought dragons to the earth, also sent a fragment crashing down in Westeros, which contained the metal that Dawn was forged from, I can quite easily see how the First Men of the time called the steel that Dawn was made from "Dragonsteel", as to them it has the same origin as the dragons.

It could quite conceivably be that Valyrian steel that was made thousands of years later was an attempt by the sorcerors of Valyria to replicate the substance that Dawn originated from. Maybe achieving partial success, in that Dawn is still unique and apparently more deadly than a sword made of Valyrian steel.

Nice tie in to the Sword of Kings/Sword of the Gods/Sword of Destiny/Excalibur myth too.

[Scafloc]

That makes one wonder how Dawn ended up in the posession of House Dayne. I wonder if GRRM will clarify this

[Free Northman]

That makes one wonder how Dawn ended up in the posession of House Dayne. I wonder if GRRM will clarify this

Well, if their keep "Starfall" got its name due to it being on the site of the actual meteor impact, then it would seem that the Dayne's were simply the ones living at the place where the star fell, from which Dawn was forged.

[Scafloc]

It is just that I always thought that the Dayne family was not as long in Westeros as say House Stark. The Dornish seem to descent from Roynar and Andal; the Starks from the First Men. If Dawn exists since the Long Night house Dayne may descent from the First Men as well or they may not be the original owners.

[The BlackBear]

It is just that I always thought that the Dayne family was not as long in Westeros as say House Stark. The Dornish seem to descent from Roynar and Andal; the Starks from the First Men. If Dawn exists since the Long Night house Dayne may descent from the First Men as well or they may not be the original owners.

There could have been Dyne's before they were Dayne's. I got the feeling the Dornish pretty much fought all invaders, including Andals.

[Ran]

The Daynes claim to have been around from the dawn of days -- basically from the time of the First Men. And realistically speaking, given that the First Men first entered Westeros by the Broken Arm of Dorne, it would seem to me that the very oldest families of the First Men would have be in Dorne. The first First Men invaders/settlers can't have just decided to keep marching thousands of miles until they reached the North. They must have started settling down in Dorne to begin with.

[Free Northman]

The Daynes claim to have been around from the dawn of days -- basically from the time of the First Men. And realistically speaking, given that the First Men first entered Westeros by the Broken Arm of Dorne, it would seem to me that the very oldest families of the First Men would have be in Dorne. The first First Men invaders/settlers can't have just decided to keep marching thousands of miles until they reached the North. They must have started settling down in Dorne to begin with.

Yes. House Dayne almost certainly started out as a First Men house, maybe swearing fealty to various Andal and Rhoynar invaders over time and intermarrying accordingly. But their origins are undoubtedly First Men. It is even stated that their House is 10000 years old in one of the books. Which would make sense, seeing as the First Men first arrived in Dorne before spreading North.

One thing that struck me, though, with regard to the pace of the First Men migration, is the legend that the First King may be buried under the Great Barrow at Barrowton. Implying that the First Men spread all the way to the North in one generation, under the King that first led them across the Arm of Dorne.

I find this unlikely, though. In any case, I digress from the House Dayne origin issue.

[Ran]

You're not the only one who finds it unlikely.

[rmholt]

There is a little info on Dragonsteel - the Last Hero sentence. A lot can be said in one sentence. People might also find speculations on what it is might be informative, Valyrian steel, Dawn. I think this discussion supports the idea that the redirect to Valyrian steel is premature at best.

[Scafloc]

You mean there is another reference about dragonsteel? Hmm I have the books in pdf format and I did a search through all of them including the Dunk and Egg stories and I only came up with the ones I mentioned about. Must be a typo in the pdf.

Where did you find it?

[rmholt]

You mean there is another reference about dragonsteel? Hmm I have the books in pdf format and I did a search through all of them including the Dunk and Egg stories and I only came up with the ones I mentioned about. Must be a typo in the pdf.

Where did you find it?

I went back to find out and it was the overlap scene in ADWD. Sorry! Still - it helps because we only need one Dragonsteel sword perhaps, for the last hero + 1 and I dont know how big that meteorite was.

[Scafloc]

If there is a reference that the Last Hero used Dawn then the Jon/Sam thought that dragonstone may be Valyrian steel stands against what we know about Dawn. So in that case Jon/Sam would be probably wrong.

[Free Northman]

If there is a reference that the Last Hero used Dawn then the Jon/Sam thought that dragonstone may be Valyrian steel stands against what we know about Dawn. So in that case Jon/Sam would be probably wrong.

No, it is the same reference. There is only one reference to Dragonsteel, and that reference also refers to the Last Hero wielding it. There is no reference to the Last Hero using Dawn.

What we are theorizing, is that the Dragonsteel in this reference, is in fact a reference to Dawn, and not Valyrian steel.

But no one really knows as yet.

[Werthead]

It could have conceivably come over with Nymeria. Azor Ahai was from Asshai (in the eastern tradition anyway). Anyway, no mention what happens to him after he wins the war for dawn. Could go back east, dies. Sword makes it to the Rhoyne. Total speculation obv.

IIRC, GRRM once confirmed in an interview that Dawn is 2,000 years old and has been in House Dayne's possession for that time, predating Nymeria's arrival by a full millennium. I think he also used that date as the earliest 'reliable' date we could use in the series, with everything before that open to conjecture (possibly quite elastic conjecture, if we can believe ADWD).

[Ran]

That's from the SSM. It's definitely over a couple thousand years old, given the caveat about mistiness.

[Beric Zoolander]

This may not necessarily be a mistake perse but between A Storm of Swords and A Dance With Dragons Jon describes Val as having pale grey eyes and then again as having blue eyes. I just notice in the Wiki she is listed as having Pale Grey... http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Val#cite_note-1

[Ran]

Pretty sure that's an error on GRRM's part. Not sure how to list it in the wiki until we get a definitive correction, but I shall pass it on to the editor and George. Alternatively, George shall opt for her having blue-grey eyes.

[Thyrza]

Hi everyone,

I am not entirely sure whether this is so much a mistake or more a lack of update, but as far I could see, the Parentage part in the Jon Snow page lacks the addition that the Wylla theory is independently confirmed by Ned the squire in his conversation with Arya Stark. Though not a particularly long conversation, it should count as parallel confirmation of Wylla possibly being Jon's mother.

[NedStark2013]

Um I Noticed that Wiki never says what happens to Ygritte. In wiki it sounds like he just leaves her. and they had an affair and they never mention her fate which is kinda sad really and feel wiki dispected her character by not mentioning her fate.