Stannis and Aegon

[the Scorpion Knight]

I have the impression that Aegon and Stannis will never cross paths.

my thought too but I think aegon will carry stannis torch

[The Marquis de Leech]

ETA: Daeron II wife was Myriah Martell. Their wedding was a major factor in bring Dorne under the rule of the Targs and into the Seven Kingdoms. Also put the Martells in the succession line to the Iron Throne.

The Martells get their 'dragon blood' from Daeron's sister Daenerys marrying Marion Martell.

I'm also assuming legitimised male bastards (i.e. Bloodraven) trump females - otherwise Bloodraven comes after the Martells.

[eRome]

It's debatable if the Baratheons can inherit directly through the female line. However, once you grant that they can, the line of succession during Aerys' reign and further down would look like this:

1. Rhaegar
   
2. Aegon
   
3. Jon (if legitimate)
   
4. Viserys
   
5. Rhaego (stillborn)
   
6. Robert Baratheon
   
7. Stannis Baratheon
   
8. Renly Baratheon
   
9. Aemon (would decline)
   
10. Doran Martell
    
11. Quentyn Martell
    
12. Trystane Martell
    
13. Oberyn Martell
    
14. Rhaenys
    
15. Daenerys
    
16. Shireen Baratheon
    
17. Arianne Martell
    

Dany is #15 in this line, while Robert, Stannis and Renly are #6-#8. Basically, everyone with a shred of a claim comes before her.

ETA: in theory, even Brown Ben Plumm has a better Targ claim than Dany... although I'd argue his unclear line of descent makes it easier to discard him.

The only problem with this list is that it assumes all the characters it mentions are alive at the time. The line is always changing. Rhaegar is killed before his father, for example. But i get what you were trying to demonstrate. Technically since females cannot inherit, based on the Andal tradition and seconded by "The Dance of the Dragons" nightmare, they should be removed from the line all together.

[eRome]

This all assumes that Aegon is in fact the real Aegon and not a fraud. He could still be a Blackfyre or an outright fake.

Not to get too technical, but the Iron Throne was never Rhaegar's. Rhaegar dies before his father.

Stannis, in my opinion, will never give up his claim. Robert was the rightful king, by conquest, when he died. Since he had no legitimate issue, Stannis is the next in line by all the laws of Westeros, as he loves to remind anyone who will listen.

When the lords when rose up against Aerys II, they didn't do so in Robert's name, I think it's interesting to point out. That came later when they supported him when Lords Arryn, Tully, and Ned Stark all decided he had the best claim; through his paternal grandmother. I think it's interesting as they didn't decide the realm should have a new king from scratch, or that the kingdom's should be independent again, but rather still went by Targaryen-centric succession...

[Chaircat Meow]

This all assumes that Aegon is in fact the real Aegon and not a fraud. He could still be a Blackfyre or an outright fake.

Not to get too technical, but the Iron Throne was never Rhaegar's. Rhaegar dies before his father.

Aegon is a fraud.

Rhaegar dying before Aerys doesn't change the line of succession.

Stannis, in my opinion, will never give up his claim. Robert was the rightful king, by conquest, when he died. Since he had no legitimate issue, Stannis is the next in line by all the laws of Westeros, as he loves to remind anyone who will listen.

When the lords when rose up against Aerys II, they didn't do so in Robert's name, I think it's interesting to point out. That came later when they supported him when Lords Arryn, Tully, and Ned Stark all decided he had the best claim; through his paternal grandmother. I think it's interesting as they didn't decide the realm should have a new king from scratch, or that the kingdom's should be independent again, but rather still went by Targaryen-centric succession...

Yeah it is. It also suggests they aren't so certain Robert did rule by right of conquest. To be honest, I doubt there is a coherent theory on the point.

[Mulled Wino]

Targs have no claim at all. Simple conquest

[Fat Mac]

Targs have no claim at all. Simple conquest

I agree, yet some people don't seem to get this. It is Stannis's throne. Aegon was supplanted as heir when Robert took the throne and he was "killed."

[IvanStark]

Not because of Elia. The previous marriages between Targs and Martells put them in the succession line ;)

ETA: Daeron II wife was Myriah Martell. Their wedding was a major factor in bring Dorne under the rule of the Targs and into the Seven Kingdoms. Also put the Martells in the succession line to the Iron Throne.

Thank you!

[PatrickStormborn]

It's debatable if the Baratheons can inherit directly through the female line. However, once you grant that they can, the line of succession during Aerys' reign and further down would look like this:

1. Rhaegar
   
2. Aegon
   
3. Jon (if legitimate)
   
4. Viserys
   
5. Rhaego (stillborn)
   
6. Robert Baratheon
   
7. Stannis Baratheon
   
8. Renly Baratheon
   
9. Aemon (would decline)
   
10. Doran Martell
    
11. Quentyn Martell
    
12. Trystane Martell
    
13. Oberyn Martell
    
14. Rhaenys
    
15. Daenerys
    
16. Shireen Baratheon
    
17. Arianne Martell
    

Dany is #15 in this line, while Robert, Stannis and Renly are #6-#8. Basically, everyone with a shred of a claim comes before her.

ETA: in theory, even Brown Ben Plumm has a better Targ claim than Dany... although I'd argue his unclear line of descent makes it easier to discard him.

We have no citation that suggests men from a female line come before women in the line of succession.

The only problem with this list is that it assumes all the characters it mentions are alive at the time. The line is always changing. Rhaegar is killed before his father, for example. But i get what you were trying to demonstrate. Technically since females cannot inherit, based on the Andal tradition and seconded by "The Dance of the Dragons" nightmare, they should be removed from the line all together.

Daenerys is the mother of dragons. If she wants to inherit, she can inherit.

[Winter's Knight]

Daenerys is the mother of dragons. If she wants to inherit, she can inherit.

And you have been, where?

[The guy from the Vale]

The only problem with this list is that it assumes all the characters it mentions are alive at the time. The line is always changing. Rhaegar is killed before his father, for example. But i get what you were trying to demonstrate. Technically since females cannot inherit, based on the Andal tradition and seconded by "The Dance of the Dragons" nightmare, they should be removed from the line all together.

Who is on the list at any time might change, but the order would stay the same, and that's the one thing I'm trying to demonstrate. No matter who else is on the list, the Baratheon brothers have the better Targaryen claims than Daenerys. Even Quentyn and Brown Ben Plumm come before Dany, on purely legalistic terms.

[The guy from the Vale]

We have no citation that suggests men from a female line come before women in the line of succession.

Daenerys is the mother of dragons. If she wants to inherit, she can inherit.

I admitted in the very first sentence of the post that we're not exactly clear how this system of inheritance works. We have GRRM stating in a SSM that "all male claims" must be exhausted before going to a female. I think that's not fully thought through, or at the very least, extremely ambiguous.

[Darth Rivers]

Well, yes. But I'm taking things from the Targaryen point of view, not the Baratheon one.

Well too bad the Targaryen point of view is no longer relevant, because the oaths to house Baratheon have already been sworn.

[salt]

Well too bad the Targaryen point of view is no longer relevant, because the oaths to house Baratheon have already been sworn.

This. Though I understand Dath RIver's point- from a Targ POV, Bobby B had 0 legitimacy and anyone claiming to be his heir has -1 legitimacy. But since the only way a Targ will take the throne is through conquest, the lawful Targaryen line of sucession is irrelevant- the Targaryen who takes the throne will be the one who sits it.

[LuisDantas]

A few points.

1. Robert's justification for sitting on the Iron Throne is (purposefully, it seems) ambiguous. According to Renly there was talk about his Targaryen grandmother, but obviously his succesful rebellion was a far more decisive factor.

2. It is not really possible to prove either that Robert left no issue nor that Aegon isn't legit. Such matters will forever be glorified gossip and ultimately irrelevant except as part of the reputations of Cersei's sons, Stannis and Aegon. Which is actually fine, since fitness to rule has no relation succession rules.

3. As theguyfromtheVale just said, given any set of criteria, the list may change, but the order will not.

4. That Stannis calls Rhaenyra Targaryen an usurper with a flat face a full seventeen decades after the fact shows that there is little hope for anyone actually being convinced to the other side on matters of succession law. It has been well established that Viserys I's will specified her as his successor, and Aegon II's rebellion was the true usurpation was Aegon II's claim, launched by the Lord Command of the Kingsguard of the time. Of course, I don't trust Stannis' sanity, but we know that the first Dance of Dragons did split Westeros.

[PatrickStormborn]

And you have been, where?

Taking a well-deserved break before my blood pressure gets any higher! :P

[Darth Rivers]

This. Though I understand Dath RIver's point- from a Targ POV, Bobby B had 0 legitimacy and anyone claiming to be his heir has -1 legitimacy. But since the only way a Targ will take the throne is through conquest, the lawful Targaryen line of sucession is irrelevant- the Targaryen who takes the throne will be the one who sits it.

Robert had 100% legitimacy, BECAUSE THE KING IS WHOMEVER THE NOBLES ARE SWORN TO.

That Stannis calls Rhaenyra Targaryen an usurper with a flat face a full seventeen decades after the fact shows that there is little hope for anyone actually being convinced to the other side on matters of succession law.

She is an usurper, because she failed. If she had won, the nobles would have sworn allegiance to her, and she would be legitimate.

[NotYetRegistered]

Stannis has the best claim right now, but he'll lose it the moment Aegon and his House get recognized by the Faith and most nobles of the land as ruler of Westeros.

[salt]

Robert had 100% legitimacy, BECAUSE THE KING IS WHOMEVER THE NOBLES ARE SWORN TO.

I meant to say Roose Bolton's (the poster) point. The Targs don't give a shit about that.

[The Marquis de Leech]

I admitted in the very first sentence of the post that we're not exactly clear how this system of inheritance works. We have GRRM stating in a SSM that "all male claims" must be exhausted before going to a female. I think that's not fully thought through, or at the very least, extremely ambiguous.

The question is twofold:

(1) How far back male claims need to be exhausted before a female has a claim.

(2) If females descended from the male line trump males descended from the female line.

The second point is what gets this notion that Stannis (not Daenerys) is the Targaryen Heir. Pretending for a moment that Robert's Targaryen grandmother were still alive, Daenerys would come before the grandmother. A situation where Robert comes before Daenerys would mean Robert coming before the same grandmother he inherits his claim from. Which (IMO) is nonsense. You can't give a claim to your descendents better than the claim you had yourself: Robert only comes in if his grandmother is dead. Which means that Daenerys trumps Robert unless you are dealing with straight Salic Law, at which point the Targaryens are officially extinct.