From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa VIII

[Kittykatknits]

Well, aside from this emotional stuff, Sansa was of high importance, Lollys was of next to none. The King's life comes first, then Cersei and Tyrion, them Sansa (the top-level hostage). After all, the Hound is still a loyal bannerman to the Lannisters at that point. In any case, the Hound does save her when he could have just as easily shrugged his shoulders.

LF warns her, but because he recognizes that as she's a noblewoman, and one who's a fairly sharp social player, Randa might figure her true identity out and this is a danger to his plan. No doubt Randa does have an agenda, but LF deals with such people all the time. As someone else pointed out, the Royces or Corbrays might be relatives of the Starks, so to speak. LF is not the sort to miss the implications of bloodlines. Perhaps this too figures into LF's calculations - as either a danger to his plans or part of them.

As you say though, he spares hardly a thought for Mya Stone. LF is too adept to overlook someone, and he may even know she's King Robert's bastard, so maybe he's overlooking Mya, or maybe he has one more contingency plan in his head regarding Mya.

Hmm, that's a good point. I was never certain why the tapestries merited a mention at all. This is certainly one possible reason.

Oh, I don't think anyone disputes the marriage was a sham - but it was the kind of sham that does have an effect. Even the characters acknowledge it, both of them. It's "real" only in the sense of what its political / biological results would have been (a Lannister heir to control the north with).

Even as arranged & unwilling (& unhappy) marriages go, it's well beyond what's normal. Compare to the marriage of Lysa Tully to Jon Arryn - that was unwilling (on her part) and unhappy, but their families were allies. Tyrion might have been trying (in vain, for obvious reasons) to reduce the "unhappy" part, but with Tyrion's and Sansa's families locked in bitter warfare, this marriage was to be a politically-sanctioned rape. Neither wanted it, and both were coerced.

The Hound was assigned specifically to the king that day, he should have gone straight to him but didn't. I can see it being overlooked but that's a change in behavior for Tyrion even though the Hound should be a loyal Lannister bannermen. Eearlier in the book, he even questions the Lannister armsmen and makes sure they remember to follow him as well as his sister. Yet, he doesn't spare a thought to a man who is known as his sister's dog.

I agree on LF and the threat that Randa presents. We haven't gotten a hint that he considers Mya a threat at all. It's likely he considers her of a low enough status that he'd just have her killed if she did become a thread. Hmm, me thinks Lothur would not be very happy about that. Everyone, no matter how brilliant or smart, makes a mistake eventually. He's already made one that we know of.

I hear what your saying about the marriage and its effect. I think what we are talking about though is how Tyrion wanted it to be real. He wanted the wife, the fantasy, the love, the home of his own, all of it. But, that was a sham - the man was deluding himself. If he moved forward that night, it'd have been rape. If he doesn't then, then Tyrion is confronting the truth on what the marriage is and his wife's feelings in the matter. Both expose the marriage itself, the marriage that Tyrion wants, for the lie it is.

I think you're right about online forums influencing people by making their views more extreme. I remember realizing I went from thinking "OK. That's pretty douche-bagging" to "God, why won't that just kill that fucker off? He's clearly evil. Get out the pitchforks people."

I've found myself doing the same thing before. Group think in action. I do believe it fuels Dany hate for a certainty. The anonymous nature of the interwebs leads to people voicing their opinions in a um, as strong a manner than they otherwise might.

That's interesting, I have experienced the opposite. I always regarded discussing novels and literature as voicing your personal view, thus I would regard such discussions as quite personal. However, on this forum, and this topic especially, the discussions are more centered around the meta-structure of the novels which allows you to take a step back from the personal reading experience and analysize the novels from a more....academic angle.

I am a Philosophy student and have been studying the works of a few American Analytical philosophers, which is a branch of philosophy that is not too concerned with the discussion of Continental, more literature-orientated philosophy works. So, I was quite amazed to see on this forum that it is possible to hold a fairly objective, academic discussion on fantasy novels as I haven't been in touch with the study of novels before.

I recall that one or two of the regular posters of this topic (Kittykatknits?) have mentioned that they have studied Literature. I think that the ones who are able to voice their personal view through the skills of academic practice seem to really lift the discussions here. If people are able to recognize such an approach, which I think some posters fail to do, the majority of the discussions would really benefit from this.

Apologies for going off-topic :)

Yes, I agree on how the discussion of novels and literature can be quite personal but I think face to face communication can convey quite a bit that on-line simply can not. My online fandom experience is limited to ASOIAF however. I think it depends upon the topic under discussion on just how academic it tends to be me. This thread has done a great job of approaching it just as you say but there quite a few exceptions. Start a random Sansa thread and it will soon be filled with people calling her stupid and shallow with no textual evidence to back it up. There is quite a lot of strawmen and attack the messenger posts too. But, I also enjoy the more academic discussions on here, they are a wonderful experience. The discussion board that I have seen in the past have been rather superficial in their discussion. Nothing wrong with that but it doesn't engage me all that much.

And yeah, I was one of those that mentioned having a lit. degree but it really doesn't count for anything on here. There are so many posters on this board that blow me away with their observations and insights. I've learned so much that I would never have figured out on my own. Either way, I agree on an academic approach and how it would benefit many discussions.

[brashcandy]

Questions:

--Though on first glance, Shae and Sansa seem to have nothing in common, a closer analysis reveals that in certain ways they are parallel characters. (Both young, beautiful, in a precarious position, must constantly (and carefully) put up a wall and play a prescribed role, must hide their secrets in their hearts, and are in situations that, in one way or another, they find oppressive. Is it fair to say, under the circumstances, that Sansa’s compassion makes her the morally “better” of the two? Or are the situations they started out in (a happy family for Sansa; poverty, exploitation, and possibly paternal rape for Shae) make such comparisons untenable?

Good question. I think we are meant to appreciate that Sansa has managed to keep her humanity and compassion for others despite the awful things she's gone through, but this doesn't necessarily mean that Shae should be castigated for the loss of hers. For Shae, women like Lollys and Sansa are still protected and coddled by the very nature of their status, one which she desperately tries to come close to via her relationship with Tyrion. It arguably takes very extreme events like the riot for noble born women to experience fear of victimization (from Shae's point of view), while for Shae this would have been an everyday peril. Based on this, I think it's clear that Shae's inability to empathise isn't natural or evident of some evil/wicked mentality. It may sound like a cliche, but the world has likely made her this way, and her response to it is to be just as callous and focused on what she needs to do to survive. This means picking and choosing her loyalties, and switching them when the time is necessary. And it's interesting how we see Sansa having to do the same thing in the Vale, and not surprisingly, her seemingly coldhearted attitude towards Sweetrobin (father and I have larger concerns) is what garners her the most criticism as well. Sansa still has the ability to feel, but this has to be tempered by an awareness of a larger goal, which on that day involved getting SR down the mountain in the shortest time and with as minimum fuss as possible. Just as likely, Shae sees Sansa as someone who is standing in the way of her larger concerns, which at that time revolved around keeping Tyrion's sexual interest in her at a peak, and getting him to devote his energies to pleasing her, not his little wife.

--What led Sansa to feel an innate distrust for Shae? Was it her ever-sharpening instincts (as I speculate), or was there some other factor at play?

Yes, I do think Sansa is very good at reading people, but I also think that Shae wasn't quite trying to hide her feelings at some points like she would have been with Tyrion. The insolence Sansa detects is also clearly recognized by the other maid Brella, who probably knows of Tyrion's late night activities as well. What's interesting here is how we have two women, both of whom arguably feel no genuine desire for Tyrion, but who must put on an act to survive. Shae feels resentment towards Sansa because the girl occupies the position she would like to be in, and hasn't even had to "work" for it like Shae has. While she may recognize Sansa's deep unhappiness with Tyrion, it changes nothing at the end of the day.

--Does Sansa show both superior intelligence and judgment in picking up on Shae’s resentment, something Tyrion cannot do in nearly two years acquaintance with her? Is Tyrion self-deluded not to notice Shae’s (In this case, IMO, just) simmering resentment; or is he simply as naive as others criticize Sansa for being about Joffrey? Why does Sansa get so much hatred and distain for her “naivety” with Joffrey; whilst Tyrion almost always gets sympathy for his nearly identical naivety about Shae? Is it an issue of the individual prejudice of readers, or does the way GRRM choses to portray (and sympathize) with his characters come into play?

Very relevant questions. Again, we see the privileging of male desire as valid and legitimate, while female desire is almost always shallow and vapid. Sansa actually has less time, and less reasons to suspect Joffrey's depravity and unworthiness, but she's viewed as unbelievably stupid and naive for somehow not seeing these qualities. Tyrion on the other hand, actually demands the conditions for Shae's pretense, but when such pretense is proven true afterall, he escapes the scorn that is heaped upon Sansa. And of course, the author has to shoulder responsibility here as well. Throughout AGOT, Sansa's feelings for Joffrey are constantly being shown to the readers as foolish and immature. Even her 9 yr old sister knows better, and Sansa goes out of her way to concoct lies to make Joff seem more heroic; she even goes so far as to excuse the Hound's culpability in Mycah's murder. Shock and horror! Compare the treatment of Tyrion's relationship with Shae. On first reading it's very easy to sympathise with the dwarf who falls for the beautiful prostitute, only to be cruelly disappointed in the end. I certainly did. We see his desire as tragic, but ultimately worthy, all he wanted was love and a chance at romantic fulfillment, never mind his tendency to treat Shae like an object. And of course, this kind of authorial sympathetic treatment of Tyrion's desires extends to Sansa as well. In the chapter where he agrees to marry her, it's clear that the Lordship of Winterfell is one of his prime motivating factors, but do we ever see Tyrion reflecting on this after the wedding - specifically after Sansa's rejection of his sexual advances? Nope. All we hear about is how Tyrion wants her to bring him her joys, sorrows and lust. Is it any wonder then why so many readers have it in their minds that Tyrion married Sansa to protect her?

--Could Sansa ever come to possess Shae’s ruthlessness?

Sansa is defined by her exceptional compassion and ability to empathise with others, but I do think we've already seen her ability to possess some kind of ruthlessness in the sense of making hard decisions. She can manipulate and hide her true feelings very well, so yes, when it comes to a sheer focus on survival, I think Sansa can be "ruthless." What she seems able to distinguish though is the victims from the perpetrators, the empowered from the powerless, so she isn't going to take the attitude of ensuring her survival at the cost of those weaker than herself. I think her prayer during the Blackwater battle is a good illustration of this: she prays for those closest to her, the innocent and the helpless, and those who also tried to assist her in whatever small way. However, such magnanimity is not extended to persons like the Queen or Joffrey, and reveals that iron core to Sansa which is not willing to give an ounce of sympathy to those directly responsible for her suffering and abuse.

--Is there a distinct moral difference between Shae and Margary Tyrell? Should Sansa look to either of these women as role models?

No, I don't think there's a distinct moral difference and indeed, considering Marg as a noble born Shae is an enlightening exercise. We see that Marg's kindness towards Sansa was essentially just an act, and that as soon as the girl became unavailable to marry Willas, she was dropped from Marg's companionship and confidence. Marg too has a single minded focus, bolstered by her powerful grandmother, in ensuring that she secures the best possible husband for herself, and doesn't mind killing a king to do so. Imagine if Shae had access to equal power and authority during her time in KL; she certainly wouldn't have ended up dead by the hands of a jealous, scorned lover. I think both women do act as cautionary tales in a sense for Sansa. Shae illustrates the complete victimization that low born women can suffer, with no access to power or assistance. The very bodies they attempt to use as currency bear the marks of casual violence and abuse, something which they inevitably have to endure until it ends oftentimes in death. Margaery on the other hand, serves to reveal to Sansa how "sisterhood" can be predatory and exploitative, and that one cannot take for granted bonds forged by either birth (her relationship with Arya) or genuine compatibility and shared interests (Jeyne Poole/Mya Stone?).

--Do you see any parallels between Shae’s willingness to sacrifice Tyrion and Sansa and Sansa’s possible future behavior with Sweet Robin?

I think I already answered this one above :)

[Lyanna Stark]

Haven't had the time to read all the excellent contributions yet (will get back to Queen Cersei's magnificent post on Shae later), but I did update the link post on Page 1 of this thread with most of the new stuff, link to updated resource post here.

As always, if things are missing, please let me know which post or thread you want added and I'll add it. The best way is probably to PM me since my memory is like a sieve. ;)

[Lummel]

...It does interest me though if GRRM meant for the Starks and Dany to be heroes, because so far only Jon and Arya really seem to meet with fandom approval. Dany and Sansa get shitloads of flak and Bran mostly a meh, on average. If you count Cat as a Stark by proxy, she certainly brings down the average there too. In comparison, the Lannisters are only dragged down by Cersei. So for popularity, the Lannisters are in the win!

mildly off topic, or maybe not actually, but my opinion is that GRRM is very ambitious in terms of what he is putting into a genre work and how he is using that material.

That's the way I'm thinking on the Daenerys and Jon reread anyhow, that they have been getting criticism in ADWD for not doing what is expected of characters in heroic fantasy - ie be heroic and fantastic. Sansa so far isn't either, she's been strictly realistic, well largely leaving aside proto-warging, swallowing snowflakes and the like and that must jarr if what you are expecting is heroism, the epic and the fantastic. Arya conforms to type there.

The extent to which GRRM's ambition pays off or might pay off is debatable, still I'd make the comparision between Sansa and Theon I think for characters who are totally wrung through the mangle of guilt, loss, suffering and broken illusions.

[Lyanna Stark]

I also think we should consider making a Sansa FAQ, since a lot of people get the pure facts from the books wrong. If we can put that together with relevant quotes to support it, it could be very useful to link to. It could reply to things like "Sansa killed Ned" (with quotes from Ned and Cersei's meeting, Cersei telling Tyrion that Sansa told her, when really it was Ned who revealed that they were leaving and why they were leaving, which was not just that he wanted to support Stannis cos he loved Stannis) also perhaps with a link to the SSM.

Further questions could be:

"Sansa killed Lady", "Sansa still loves shallow things and knights" (as of AFFC), "Sansa is stupid", "Sansa hates Arya", "Sansa hates Jon" (she calls him "half-brother" like the other Stark kids also do and she wants to meet him in AFFC), "Sansa is a Tully"/"Sansa is just like Cat".

"Sansa is a snotty bitch" (countered by her being the only one nice to Lollys, how she sympathises with Margaery for marrying Joffrey, how she takes care of Sweetrobin, how she saves Dontos, how she regards Ellaria Sand without arrogance).

All of these are standard questions trotted out by people who just decided how they were going to view Sansa in early AGOT and haven't got over that bit yet.

[Lady Lea]

I also think we should consider making a Sansa FAQ, since a lot of people get the pure facts from the books wrong. If we can put that together with relevant quotes to support it, it could be very useful to link to. It could reply to things like "Sansa killed Ned" (with quotes from Ned and Cersei's meeting, Cersei telling Tyrion that Sansa told her, when really it was Ned who revealed that they were leaving and why they were leaving, which was not just that he wanted to support Stannis cos he loved Stannis) also perhaps with a link to the SSM.

Further questions could be:

"Sansa killed Lady", "Sansa still loves shallow things and knights" (as of AFFC), "Sansa is stupid", "Sansa hates Arya", "Sansa hates Jon" (she calls him "half-brother" like the other Stark kids also do and she wants to meet him in AFFC), "Sansa is a Tully"/"Sansa is just like Cat".

"Sansa is a snotty bitch" (countered by her being the only one nice to Lollys, how she sympathises with Margaery for marrying Joffrey, how she takes care of Sweetrobin, how she saves Dontos, how she regards Ellaria Sand without arrogance).

All of these are standard questions trotted out by people who just decided how they were going to view Sansa in early AGOT and haven't got over that bit yet.

This. I think it would be really useful and it would save everyone a lot of trouble. I'd also add "Sansa has learned nothing", "never thinks about her family", "trusts Littlefinger".

[brashcandy]

Well that's three things we're working on now:

1. The master list of different quality posts on Sansa (already started, see first pg)

2. The "official" PtP perspective on Sansa's development

3. A Sansa FAQ

No. 1 will be updated on a continuous basis, I'm going to tackle no. 2, and considering that no. 3 was Lyanna Stark's idea I'll be assuming you'll take the lead on that Lyanna? :) Of course input/assistance from thread posters is always welcome, so look out for private messages, and feel free to offer suggestions via PM as well.

[Lummel]

I also think we should consider making a Sansa FAQ...

That doesn't seem to me to be a terrible idea to have a document that interested people could save and dump in posts. I mean there are some discussions you post in and end up more or less repeating the same basic points so to have a prepared FAQ is just the next logical step.

I think there is something to be said for stating and restating the facts.

ETA spelling

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I would love to see a FAQ + master list of links + official perspective. I'm still a n00b to the PtP threads and I don't want to bring up something that sounds new to me but has already been extensively discussed. Besides, I'd like to have the "Best Of" in a handy format so I don't have to plow through every single solitary post in all the past threads - I DO have a life outside the board! :)

Great post/analysis on Shae, Cersei and BrashCandy. I'll add my $.02 tomorrow when I have more time to sit down at the computer. And I recall I still have A Post That Was Promised on all the beans Aunt Lysa spilled just before she flew.

[Lady Lea]

I think there is something to be said for stating and restating the facts.

Definitely, and in a serious discussion it is always enriching, but I feel like a FAQ will be most useful for the kind of posts that drop a bunch of accusations with no textual evidence, you know?

[Elba the Intoner]

Well, since we were talking about Sansa and the dresses she wears how about addressing the comment that she still is only cares about wearing beautiful clothes? (BTW, this is another thing she has in common with our Clueless heroine Cher - both like nice clothes and pretty things and on the surface seem shallow but really have good hearts and are very clever).

I like the idea about a FAQ sheet too. The only thing is we have to recognize that some of the text that could be used to support an argument are ambiguous and could be read the other way as well (ETA at least on a surface reading). Take the dress thing again when Sansa picks out the brown dress in Feast. I read it as her making a mature decision which was more about what she had to do that day than about wanting to wear a pretty dress. But on a very superficial reading, it does come off as why is she bothering worrying about her clothes at a time like this?

There's the same issue with regard to her thoughts on Jon in Feast when she is coming down the mountain and she says how sweet it would be to see Jon again. I loved that statement but when I first started lurking I saw quite a few comments about how she never thinks of Jon kindly, focusing on the first part of her thoughts when she says she hadn't thought about him in years. I personally feel like it's taking that quote out of context by only focusing on the first part of her thought rather than the complete thought but some people will never see it that way.

[A...]

So many amazing ideas on this thread since I last checked in! I loved the Shae analysis and the idea about the FAQ sounds like it might come in useful, and I'd be happy to lend a hand with a question or two. :)

Anyways, since going on holiday I have been checking up on this board from time to time but never had enough time to write up posts and now I've forgotten most of the things I wanted to say. But I do remember noticing a couple of posts ago a suggestion that Sansa might kill LF and since I think this ties in with the ruthlesness theme from one of the recent posts I just wanted to make a little comment on that.

What struck me almost immediately about Sansa, even back in AGOT is that she has a hard core. Not just that she is brave and that she has an inner strength to face the awful treatment she receives in KL, but rather that she is capable of emotional coolness, despite being a kind person. I think this is for the most part related to the same ability of self-restraint which she employs in her courtesy armour. This inner toughness we can observe in her relations with Jeyne when both are locked in the tower: she comforts her but is ultimately not fully tolerant of Jeyne's complete breakdown and loss of control. The emotional hardness is also present when she refuses to kneel at the wedding. Despite being a compassionate person, Sansa is capable of the kind of emotional restraint and inner power which are the ingredients of ruthlesness when pitted against an individual of whose wrongness the possessor of the above faculties is entirely convinced.

As regards the physical possibility of the act of murder being committed by Sansa: we know Sansa is not a squeamish girl, not at all. At the hand's tourney she watches in fascination as the knight dies in front of her, she looks on at her father's execution, she does not flinch from touching the Hounds blood- and vomit- covered face, watches Joff suffocating and clawing at his throat and coaxes SR out of his room even though the floor is covered by the contents of a broken chamber pot. All these show that the pure physicality of killing would not be out of the question for Sansa, providing she were strong enough to tackle her adversary, to put it coloquially: she has the stomach for it.

These two points lead me to think that if Sansa were in mortal peril or acting to protect the helpless SR for instance she would be capable of the kind of emotional resolution as well as the physical non-squeamishness to hypothetically kill a person.

But having said that, I do not believe this is where her arc is heading, the Mother imagery for one clearly points in another direction. Nevertheless, if pushed to the extreme I believe it wouldn't be completely incongruous for her to resort to the act. I just hope she doesn't have to, both for her sake and because defeating LF through love sounds so damn poetic.

ETA: Since we're comparing Sansa to Austen heroines, I think Catherine from Northanger Abbey, and her romantic disillusionment merits a mention? ;)

[TNine]

Just want to say, i absolutely love this thread, and it has made Sansa probably my second favorite character in the entire series.

*snip*

What about when she retches after LF kills Ser Dontos? Or her reaction to Lysa's death? I think Sansa still has some aversion to killing, and seeing as she has a compassionate nature i don't know if that will be how she deals with LF.

[Ragnorak]

Yes, please.

Ragnorak talked about us doing a "Sansa for Dummies" topic, a "Best of the PtP topics". I think it would be cool, to have like a masterlist of the most important posts and discussions. It would certainly be easier to direct people to the right place. Sometimes we say "you should read the PtP threads, we already discussed this" and someone who has never read them is never going to find the pertinent discussion in the middle of all these posts. What do you think?

I love to meander around the Sansa threads but confess to not having read through everything. As an example of the Sansa for Dummies use, a while ago I posted a thread asking if Sansa warged the old blind dog. I was rereading that section looking for something else and it jumped out at me. Elba the Intoner and Kittykatknits were both kind enough to point out that this was covered in the Pawn to Player threads. I read through about 30 pages of posts but never actually found the warging the old blind dog parts. The thirty pages were plenty interesting but they also had lots of references to material that you have all clearly established that wouldn't be readily understandable to someone new to threads. (even though you are the most enthusiatically helpful fans around) Imagine some poor person who has just finished a first read jumping in now and thinking "What the heck is the unkiss?" You have some truly brilliant material in here, but it is a bit daunting to sift through it all especially for a newcomer.

[A...]

What about when she retches after LF kills Ser Dontos? Or her reaction to Lysa's death? I think Sansa still has some aversion to killing, and seeing as she has a compassionate nature i don't know if that will be how she deals with LF.

Of course she has an aversion to killing, I in no way dispute that, I was merely trying to illustrate how she sould be capable of it if pushed. I myself think it unlikely she will be murdering anyone anytime soon, but who knows...

As to her reaction to Dontos' death: I was under the impression that was mostly seasickness?

[brashcandy]

Just want to say, i absolutely love this thread, and it has made Sansa probably my second favorite character in the entire series.

Hooray! :) Welcome TNine, and it's great to hear you're enjoying the thread and that it's had such an impact.

What about when she retches after LF kills Ser Dontos? Or her reaction to Lysa's death? I think Sansa still has some aversion to killing, and seeing as she has a compassionate nature i don't know if that will be how she deals with LF.

Yeah, agreed. I don't think A... was asserting that she could kill easily or that it wouldn't affect her; just that within Sansa there's a very strong core that is able to withstand things which would daunt and traumatise another person. This means that although she might never be the one to kill LF personally, it's not hard to envision her making the decision to undermine his authority and to perhaps knowingly contribute to his demise.

[brashcandy]

I love to meander around the Sansa threads but confess to not having read through everything. As an example of the Sansa for Dummies use, a while ago I posted a thread asking if Sansa warged the old blind dog. I was rereading that section looking for something else and it jumped out at me. Elba the Intoner and Kittykatknits were both kind enough to point out that this was covered in the Pawn to Player threads. I read through about 30 pages of posts but never actually found the warging the old blind dog parts. The thirty pages were plenty interesting but they also had lots of references to material that you have all clearly established that wouldn't be readily understandable to someone new to threads. (even though you are the most enthusiatically helpful fans around) Imagine some poor person who has just finished a first read jumping in now and thinking "What the heck is the unkiss?" You have some truly brilliant material in here, but it is a bit daunting to sift through it all especially for a newcomer.

Point taken Ragnorak :) Of course, considering the nature of the thread, most topics will reoccur as people rethink and develop fresh readings and insights on "old" issues. We can strive to provide links to major sections or analyses, but inevitably, as new posters join the thread, there's going to be a constant turnover of discussion and material which is vital. This all means of course that you will have to meander through these parts more frequently and bless us with some actual posts on things which interest you in Sansa's arc :P

[Caro99]

About the great idea for the FAQ board, feel free to ask me to help in any way i can- looking forward to it! :)

A, i agree that Sansa retched after Donto's was murdered because of seasickness, but maybe also it was just one thing too many in one night (the PW, her heart at her throat from the godswood, to climbing down the cliff, to having LF reveal himself on the ship and Sansa wondering if she hasn't escaped the lannisters only to end up with worse and then having the man she did sort of trust after Sandor in KL murdered in front of her..) so well that's why i particularly think she was upset at that moment :)

[1234567]

3. A Sansa FAQ

Just to throw two pence in, but the original "From Player to Pawn? Rereading Sansa?" threads maybe helpful here as they covered not only a summary of the text chapter by chapter, but inculded a hell of a lot of quotes and good discussion of those points afterwards. Also the analysis does a lot of compare and contrast with other character chapters and may indeed be faster than going though the books and retyping out the quotes: copy and paste being easier and all. :cheers:

I like the idea about a FAQ sheet too. The only thing is we have to recognize that some of the text that could be used to support an argument are ambiguous and could be read the other way as well (ETA at least on a surface reading). Take the dress thing again when Sansa picks out the brown dress in Feast. I read it as her making a mature decision which was more about what she had to do that day than about wanting to wear a pretty dress. But on a very superficial reading, it does come off as why is she bothering worrying about her clothes at a time like this?

Especially given the recent GRRM comments about symbolism, I have always found that passage about the dresses very suspect as representing more than it appeared to and could again foreshadow that Sansa's romantic future will be of her own choosing. Since AGOT Sansa is the one who knew which colours represented which House, something which is taken seriously in Westeros (look at Tyrion's comment to LF in ACOK about him not wearing his house colours).

Anway, because I'm being extremely lazy, here is my previous post about it:

Clothing

Lysa’s wardrobe is highlighted in detail as is Sansa’s first choice of dress for the day, a red and blue dress that even LF describes as too Tully. The importance of dressing in House Colours is brought up by LF

“Is it too—” Tully. The Lords Declarant will not be pleased by the sight of my bastard daughter prancing about in my dead wife’s clothes. Choose something else. Need I remind you to avoid sky blue and cream?

“No.” Sky blue and cream were the colors of House Arryn.

We then see Sansa look through Lysa’s wardrobe for something to wear. There are several possible foreshadowing points and possibly a parallel to Cersei in this passage. The first is what Alayne’s options are and what she chooses, barring in mind the importance of House Colours.

There was a gown of purple silk that gave her pause, and another of dark blue velvet sashed with silver that would have woken all the colour in her eyes, but in the end she remembered that Alayne was after all a bastard, and must not presume to dress above her station. The dress she picked was lambswool, dark brown and simply cut, with leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread. It was modest and becoming, though scare richer than something a serving girl might wear. Petyr had given her all of Lady Lysa’s jewels as well, and she tried on several necklaces, but they all seemed ostentatious. In the end she chose a simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold.

The first gown is “gown of purple silk that gave her pause”. Purple traditionally is only worn by Kings. She thinks about wearing this dress, but moves on. I wonder if this signifies that she will have the option to marry the King and decide not to.

The second gown is “dark blue velvet sashed with siver that would have woken all the colour in her eyes”. Now these aren’t the colours of House Arryn, but they are close and I would be interested to see if any other House has these colours. Again it is due to her bastard status that she rejects this dress as being to high for her new station. Perhaps Harry will feel that he does not wish to marry a bastard?

The third gown is “dark brown “ with “leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread” and she chooses to wear “simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold”. Now this may mean nothing as the dress should be black to be exact, but the reference to leaves and autumn gold and the dark brown are very similar to the colours of House Clegane. Indeed the Autumn gold does seem reminiscent of Sandor’s tale about the three dogs dying in the Autumn grass. As this is the dress she chooses, is this foreshadowing her choosing as simpler life with Sandor? Or could it be her dressing appropriately to her station?

However it also seems to be very much connected to Cersei and the parallel journeys their lives are taking. At a similar point in the book both women choose similar clothing. In deed this choice of attire scene might be the cross over point between Sansa ascending to greater things and Cersei beginning to fall. Certainly the parallel between Cersei and Sansa have been present throughout the series and this scene may again reflect that. When Cersei goes to meet the High Septon

“Nothing too rich or colorful,” she said. “Something suitably devout and drab for the High Septon. He’s like to make me pray with him.”

In the end, she chose a soft woolen dress that covered her from throat to ankle, with only a few small vines embroidered on the bodice and the sleeves in golden thread to soften the severity of its lines.

They chose almost an identical dress and do so thinking about the impression they need to create. Much as I would like to think the dress choice relates to Sandor, the coincidence of it being so close to Cersei’s dress is too large to ignore.

< Sansa warged the old blind dog. >

Initial Discussion of the Chapter about the old blind dog:

Further Discussion:

You have some truly brilliant material in here, but it is a bit daunting to sift through it all especially for a newcomer.

BrashCandy: Perhaps as well as a link to the original threads, we could list which books and what chapters each covered, so the initial quotes and analysis would be easier to find. Also as with the links to posts, we could list them by topic so that there is an easy way for everyone to go back to some of the fantastic recent posts (especially in regards to women and Sansa and the agency of female characters. :)

[Lady Lea]

The second gown is “dark blue velvet sashed with siver that would have woken all the colour in her eyes”. Now these aren’t the colours of House Arryn, but they are close and I would be interested to see if any other House has these colours.

House Frey's colours are actually dark blue and silver-grey. http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Frey/

Also House Tarbeck's, but they are extinct now.

And House Fowler's, from Dorne. Their symbol also happens to be a bird. Their motto is "let me soar". http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Fowler/

The third gown is “dark brown “ with “leaves and vines embroidered around the bodice, sleeves, and hem in golden thread” and she chooses to wear “simple velvet ribbon in autumn gold”. Now this may mean nothing as the dress should be black to be exact, but the reference to leaves and autumn gold and the dark brown are very similar to the colours of House Clegane. Indeed the Autumn gold does seem reminiscent of Sandor’s tale about the three dogs dying in the Autumn grass. As this is the dress she chooses, is this foreshadowing her choosing as simpler life with Sandor?

Looooove it.

The only other House with similar colours is House Blanetree (Maple leaves, green and brown, strewn on a field of yellow) but the sigil in the CItadel doesn't do the description much justice I think: http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/Heraldry/Entry/House_Blanetree/

The only member of House Blanetree mentioned was a wife of a grandson of Lord Walder Frey, Tytos Frey. He was killed by the Hound during the Red Wedding.