Women and Geek Culture

[Lord O' Bones]

I can't think of a single organization, corporation or entity that rises to the level of color-blindness and sexual equality as the U.S.A.

Ma'am, respectfully, you have to be kidding me.

ETA:

Unless you mean the USA to be the US Army. In which case I could almost and want to believe your statement as true to my own observations yet as a Sailor I will be more inclined to talk shit about you silly bastards. Calling the Army the USA on an international message board is disingenuous at best.

Ma'am. ;)

[MinDonner]

Am I imagining things? Or has this thread gotten to page 7 without a single mention of Bakker? :D

[Lord O' Bones]

Am I imagining things? Or has this thread gotten to page 7 without a single mention of Bakker? :D

Way to go asshole. You didn't mention Christ so you can't be Air Force.

Coast Guard jerk.

[MinDonner]

Pfft! Everyone knows the Coast Guard are the least sexist culture of all.

[Lord O' Bones]

<insert joke about flotation devices here>

[MinDonner]

I can only assume you're talking about David Hasselhoff's inflated ego. <_<

[Lord O' Bones]

Close!

[Lyanna Stark]

So, I'm reading this and I think, wait a minute, where would this not be true? In what environment, in any group that is all-male or mostly male would this not be the case?

If TP is talking about WoW, it is not nearly all male. Almost every single MMORPG have more women in it than you'd ever guess, but we tend to not give ourselves away due to the risk of harassment, or just undue attention, or the targeted sexist slurs.

So despite being a rather large group of the player base, you still have an extremely sexist attitude within the game. And what is more, it is considered completely normal. While I agree completely about what Terra complained about, the fact of the matter is that I've seen that and worse and not complained about it, because it would be like trying to dam up a waterfall: simply impossible. I let it fly over my head, or try to. The main difference is if someone is going out of their way to harass me personally, at which point I will rip them a new one and possibly also get them reported and banned.

Why would they think that this is the right course of action? And the answer in my mind is exactly what you say it isn't - that this is exactly the example of deep-seated misogyny prevalent in culture. Even if you're right - even if they really are clueless and ignorant of social norms - their fallback is to either behave like those they've seen on various movies, behave like they've seen others behave and emulate them, or behave in a completely uncivilized manner. And you don't see a connection?

Absolutely. And besides, anyone with half a brain could figure out that the type of behaviour some of these individuals engage in is wrong on a completely fundamental level. The only reason they would not be able to tell is a serious case of self delusion.

[mormont]

Respecting that this is a terrible experience and that anyone that would do much of what's on this list is well-deserving of a swift kick to the balls, I'd also argue, I think, that most of this sort of behavior isn't so much indicative of misogyny - at least, not the deep-seated sort of misogyny that's being talked about in the OP, but more of a perfect storm of guys who have no idea how to talk to girls or where the line is between hitting on a girl and assaulting her, and who assume - because they're just not used to it - that any girl who steps into "their space" may potentially be interested in them and is therefore "fair game".

But surely, making such an assumption is failing to treat women as individuals in their own right, only as sexual objects? And if that's not 'misogyny', well, it's certainly the underlying problem.

I think there is a problem in geek culture, and in other cultures too, and it's mostly caused by the attitude that women are 'other', and that the only interesting thing about them is whether you can get laid with them. The 'lack of experience' thing, to me, is just an excuse. A moment's reflection is all it takes to realise that the way you talk to women is, in all contexts except one, the way you talk to anyone else. When these guys say they 'don't know how to talk to women', what they generally mean is they don't know how to hit on women. And the fact that this is what they primarily think about when they think about talking to women is, in itself, at the root of a lot of the issues here.

Does that make sense? Not sure I explained that very well...

In any case, at the end of the day, it's the occurrence of experiences like the ones that Kay relates above, or indeed the many other examples given, that is the problem. The level I think we have to tackle it at, is the level at which it is happening - not the level at which it's being justified by some weird shit in the perpetrator's head. That latter is up to the guy himself to sort out. The geek community at large (or any given subset of it) only have a responsibility to set and enforce boundaries. (Seems to me that the exact problem in the Readercon incident linked above was that the people tasked with dealing with a rules breach, took it upon themselves to deal with it at the level of 'what was going in in the guy's head', not 'what was he actually doing?')

[Sci-2]

The Readercon thing is ridiculous. Do they realize how unsafe they've made their con? Do they care?

When these guys say they 'don't know how to talk to women', what they generally mean is they

don't know how to hit on women

.

There's truth to this, but what chair points out is important. This goes beyond "geeks" when you're looking at online games and Reddit. I know people who get laid all the time, and they're not exactly super feminists either.

[Greg]

I grew up as a serious geek in the 80's.

It would have been nice just to meet a woman who didn't snicker at my interests or see them as a "i like him, but he *grimaces* plays D&D".

I didn't try to jump every woman I met, nor did I value the women I met by how closely they met some ridiculous standard of physical beauty. I am saying it would have been great to be exposed to more potential partners in an environment where I felt comfortable enough to let my guard down and not feel like I was keeping some shameful secret. :)

[Sci-2]

Should have been playing White Wolf mate. Missed out on a lot of....fun...there.

eta: Seriously though, it's interesting to see the generational difference. I guess I never played too much D&D, but comics always seems to have had girls in the culture. Now, a lot comic guys are creepy, some are just nice guys who are shy, but then I got into comics when Vertigo was taking off.

[Noontidal]

If you walked up to someone, do you think they'd be more likely to recognise her name or "that hurdler with the video"?

Given the fact that I now use "What would Jenneke Do" as a precursor to doing things, the chances are quite high anybody I know would recognize her name. Awkwardly, as the response typically involves jumping over an object I am subsequently forced to back down and do the next best thing that Jenneke would do. I lack her skill-set.

While I understand that "sexy" is a thing that the poster of that video put out there, I do not think people really grasp what is so great about it. Yes, we see warm-ups - although if you claim to have seen similar you are full of shit, as vigorous, perhaps - she represents a spot of sunshine in the midst of gloom. Take a look at her fellow competitors, they all look like death warmed over, they are miserable as hell without exception. But not Jenneke, and something that people fail to catch onto is that just as misery loves company, joy is similarly contagious especially when there is so much.

That said, I really hope she gets a real sponsor/commercial deal. If she can talk at all I could totally see her as a female Old Spice Guy. She will win all the first place medals, and most of the others.

I do not understand why people feel the need to say they would have sex with random women or "they would hit that". It may be common, but it is not something I comprehend. I have said something similar in the past, and it is a truly idiotic sentiment to put out there. If I thought about it, I would be a bit horrified to think that I have said anything like that, but it's been years ago and I just cannot figure out what I was thinking at the time. I must have thought it was a compliment of a sort, but there is a reason I have never had a celebrity crush etc. I'm not sure where that came from.

[Starkess]

I think there is a problem in geek culture, and in other cultures too, and it's mostly caused by the attitude that women are 'other', and that the only interesting thing about them is whether you can get laid with them. The 'lack of experience' thing, to me, is just an excuse. A moment's reflection is all it takes to realise that the way you talk to women is, in all contexts except one, the way you talk to anyone else. When these guys say they 'don't know how to talk to women', what they generally mean is they don't know how to hit on women. And the fact that this is what they primarily think about when they think about talking to women is, in itself, at the root of a lot of the issues here.

:agree:

When I hear someone say "but I don't know how to talk to women!" it makes me wonder what the fuck they think we are. Some weird sort of robot that responds to only certain phrases and keywords, and you have to find just the right combination to make us come alive? I dunno. I like to be talked to like I am a person, because wow, I am. Especially if it is in a setting, like a game, where I am likely to have similar geeky interests, it's not like you're not going to be able to find something we can talk about. Unless you seriously want me to believe that the ONLY thing you ever talk about is sex. Ever. Which I know isn't true.

So I tend to think of "I don't know how to talk to women" code for "I don't know how to not see women as people first and boobs second" or something similar.

While I understand that "sexy" is a thing that the poster of that video put out there, I do not think people really grasp what is so great about it. Yes, we see warm-ups - although if you claim to have seen similar you are full of shit, as vigorous, perhaps - she represents a spot of sunshine in the midst of gloom. Take a look at her fellow competitors, they all look like death warmed over, they are miserable as hell without exception. But not Jenneke, and something that people fail to catch onto is that just as misery loves company, joy is similarly contagious especially when there is so much.

Hey now, that's me you're calling full of shit. I just don't think it's that unique of a warmup, without the slow-mo effects and musical accompaniment.

[Sci-2]

Am I imagining things? Or has this thread gotten to page 7 without a single mention of Bakker? :D

hey, as the man said he fights real misogyny. on his blog. ;-)

[Stormcatcher]

Totally agree with mormont about them thinking females are some 'other'.

It doesn't surprise me that some fuckends would love the idea of being able to watch Lara Croft get raped. And it's so true how much hostility there is towards women in 'geek culture', and the internet in general. I don't even use Youtube much more because the comments (frequently top-rated ones too) will be some sexist, racist, homophobic rubbish. The way they regard female characters is enough for me to tell how most of them would treat real women - as a sex object who's just being a 'cocktease' if you're just interested in being talked to like a fellow person.

I don't play online with strangers on Xbox Live either, because you'll just get discriminated on in someway or another. Inappropriate language is used all the time. "Let's go rape those gay Jews" was probably the comment that most made me want to beat my head against the wall. It's seriously depressing how the 'geek community' loves to throw it's 'why does nobody love/understand us?!' ball around, but effectively persecutes anyone who doesn't fit into their experiences.

[kungtotte]

It's not like I spend a lot of time watching athletes warm up, but Jenneke's routine seems a little "dancy" compared to most others I've seen. That being said, the fact that she's attractive is the only reason the video gained any sort of attention at all. Like Larissa Riquelme from the last World Cup.

[Zerrex]

You'll need to excuse me if this is outdated to the current conversation, but I just started reading the thread from the start, saw some things I wanted to reply to, then skipped near the end because I didn't want to write a novel.

Now, as note I would consider myself part of a geeky culture. I seemed to miss the comic book bandwagon, but I do play wargames, have dabbled with some of the TCGs (trading card games), quite a fan of sci-fi and fantasy (mainly the latter, but sci-fi is growing on me) and have recently picked up D&D (well, Pathfinder, but the difference to most is non existant)

I've been really saddened that popular shows like Big Bang Theory still make the "female nerd" something near-mythical.

It's interesting, I originally viewed this show positively simply from an entertainment value, which seemed to be a common opinion. However during my senior years in high school I started learning of some viewpoints as to why people dislike or outright hate the show. I'll avoid most of the opinions, since derailing is bad and just stick to two. The first is sort of along the lines of the above. I had an english teacher for a brief time who was, well to be said bluntly the most extreme feminist I have ever met (granted, I haven't met too many, but take that as you will) and she had some interesting thoughts about this show, and some of which were good points. She of course went through some feminism points, tried to wrangle in Freud and what have you (I say of course because that was what we were learning when she brought this up). She mentioned something about the joke system that I find important. The show is meant to be representative of the 'nerd' culture through the main characters, but she emphasized how it's completely unnecessary to be a part of the culture itself, because the show readily sets up enough background information pre-punchline that the seemingly "inside joke" can be understood, yet the underlying foundation (the 'nerd' concept) need not truly be accepted, and as some would say simply manipulated for a cheap joke.

That leads into the second opinion. Through browsing various forums and other sites relating to my hobbies, I learned that a majority (or a very vocal minority) of the culture hates, and I mean hates the show, some calling it the blackface of nerd culture. Although I don't necessarily agree (at least to the same extent) it has really put me off of the show, and I can't enjoy it in the same manner anymore.

So I guess the point is, although BBT may help to make the nerd culture have more acceptance, I don't think it translates to any sort of respect. Sorry if that was unrelated.. I realize it's Women AND Nerd Culture, not one or the other but there you have it.

This is part of what I'm talking about. How come, when the ladies talk about issues we perceive in geek culture, we're "looking for something to be outraged about?" What is the deal with that characterization? Why the automatic defensiveness? Where does that come from? I mean, one of Scalzi's points re: Geekdom is that it's about sharing passion - why can't that passion include critique?

I'm not trying to be combative - I really do want to understand where this line of thought comes from. Is part of it that in fandom, critique is seen as an attack on the thing we love? Seriously. What is the deal?

Again, a lot of sites I visit do have automatic defensiveness and I think you are at least partially correct in your assumption. There will always be fans who will see critiques as attacks it's one of those things that I don't believe will change, and whatever excuses they have probably do not suffice but they will still use them. I'm rather easy going about the whole thing, but I'll take a swing at why some people would be so combative.

I think the reason people (men specifically in this case) are so defiant and aggressive towards... I don't know what term to use.. outsiders? of their hobbies is because you only ever hear about the extreme examples. These men think that women truly are just going out of their way to find something to be offended at because it has happened before, and they fear it's the norm not the exception. The first example that comes off the top of my head is a sense of controversy over a specific card's art in Magic the Gathering, a card game, for people who aren't familiar with it. A group of feminists rallied around this one specific card art claiming how degrading it is, how it implies rape, and the list goes on. This was effective enough that Wizards (the company that produces Magic) went on to issue an apology. These sorts of examples seem to overshadow any good instance of women in their games. They will forget an instance where nothing goes 'wrong' and remember only the bad.

My guess as to the over aggressiveness is probably due to the reason some people are so interested in 'nerdy' things; escapism. I think once someone starts to critique something that this person immerses themselves in to escape reality, they get drawn out of it, kind of drags them back into the real world where these certain things do not make sense, and are not appropriate. My assumption is most people know that, maybe that's why they are there in the first place.

Whether this is just an excuse and boils down to "stop disliking things I love" who knows. I would like to think there's some sort of other reasoning besides some sort of immature "No Girls Allowed" mindset when it comes to these things.

I'm sure this has gone on long enough and the more I ramble the less sense it will make, so I best stop here.

[Ser Greguh]

This, to me, is the exact problem, right here. This explanation - that guys 'just don't know any better' or don't have any idea. So what do they do? They harass. they stalk. They pressure, and prod.

Why would the explanation for people doing these sorts of things be 'because they don't know how to talk to girls?' I mean, they know how to talk to humans, on some level, right? They're not slipping into the pockets of random men their hotel key so they can go play D&D with them late into the night.

Why would they think that this is the right course of action? And the answer in my mind is exactly what you say it isn't - that this is exactly the example of deep-seated misogyny prevalent in culture. Even if you're right - even if they really are clueless and ignorant of social norms - their fallback is to either behave like those they've seen on various movies, behave like they've seen others behave and emulate them, or behave in a completely uncivilized manner. And you don't see a connection?

No. It's not emulation, it's not because they're being programmed somehow that this sort of behavior is consciously "acceptable", it's overcompensation, plain and simple. They are people who are generally very poor at communicating that they're interested in someone who, when put in an element where they feel like they can communicate that interest, do so in a way that shifts wildly in the other direction, into the harassing, stalking, pressuring, and prodding. It's not a binary thing, it's an underdamped feedback control system. This isn't rocket science.

Now, does the lack of understanding of those boundaries rely on a general cultural misogyny that treats women as sexual objects? Sure. But that's where the goalposts shift over to arguing that misogyny is a prevalent general problem in society (no argument there), rather than some unique facet of people that are predisposed to attending comic book conventions. So no, I don't see any sort of connection behind a lack of social skills and a hatred of women, except for the possible notion that those who hate women and have poor social skills don't cover it up as well as those who hate women but mask it through a surface veneer of programmed courtesy.

[Sci-2]

They are people who are generally very poor at communicating that they're interested in someone who, when put in an element where they feel like they

can

communicate that interest, do so in a way that shifts wildly in the other direction, into the harassing, stalking, pressuring, and prodding.

To be fair, there was an article (on Tiger Beatdown?) relating the experiences of many women about how they were harassed by people they simply did not want to talk to. This might tie into the investment banker thing, b/c one guy apparently said "Bitch, I have a Rolls Royce."

After chair's comments, I'm beginning to readjust my position-> I think there just tons of misogynists out there, cutting across varied groups and subcultures.

I think it's the expectation that geek culture be different that fuels the disappointment. But having been part of different progressive causes, I can say that about a lot of groups. See the Obama campaign volunteer who was angry that my girlfriend-at-the-time, by being nice to his near-friendless ass, was a cock-tease.

Of course he was also my supposed friend, and tried to play nice after he'd already pulled that shit behind my back, leading to some interesting words being exchanged.

In short, scumbags abound.

eta:

To clarify, when I said military fandom, I was thinking of groups of people who are obviously way into guns and the paramilitary activities like paintball and survival training. They sometimes (often?) overlap with the separatist and white supremacist groups.

I've not heard of this connection between paintball and white supremacy?