Women and Geek Culture

[Shryke]

No Shryke, I gave them each to the next dickberg to try and grope me.

I'm trying to imagine this meeting in that hotel room. Two really stupid looking confused men.

Another point on Reddit:

From Jim C Hines, who just cancelled his Ask Me Anything (AMA)

http://www.jimchines...d-my-reddit-qa/

Emphasis mine. If you all ever wonder why we seem to be heavily self-censoring, I'm going to say that for my part, this is why. I don't want the forum to be a place where anything goes.

I went through to the article on the reddit itself: http://jezebel.com/5...e-should-listen

I made it 2 in and I think I just threw up in my mouth.

[Shryke]

the Cross Assault incident

Oh god, I remember that one. Here's the kickers:

“The sexual harassment is part of the culture. If you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community… it doesn’t make sense to have that attitude. These things have been established for years,” Aris stated.

wrt removing sexual threats from the fighting game community:

“That’s what you’re trying to do to the fighting game community and it’s not right,” Aris continued. “It’s ethically wrong.”

It's just ... wow.

[Galactus]

Maybe fandom isn't different from the rest of the world wrt gender issues, but this justification is certainly unique.

I don't really think so, considering how common these kinds of attitudes are in other kinds of communities (religions, etc.) there's certainly enough examples of "you're not really welcome unless you've been initiated (preferably in some kind of painful or humiliating way)" in non-geek circles.

EDIT: I think in general making it about "geek culture" in a lot of ways makes it out to be some kind of special snowflake, that kind of feeds into the low self-esteem of a lot of geeks. It's not that it's bad or horrible, it is, but it's not even unique.

[a wooden chair]

I went through to the article on the reddit itself: http://jezebel.com/5...e-should-listen

I made it 2 in and I think I just threw up in my mouth.

So is this thread even about geeks anymore, or just assuming everyone that uses the internet or plays xbox is one?

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

I agree that not every gamer is a geek, even though online gaming is often thought of as a geeky thing to do. However, how are you defining a geek? If you only define it as "someone behaving badly", well then of course it's easy to isolate yourself from them.

[Lord O' Bones]

Penny Arcade is one of those big nerd sites. Notable to some for its comics and personalities, others for its attempt to defend rape jokes, last I heard.

But honestly, I kinda those guys were dicks from way back. Just reminds me too much of the "internet tough guy" who would never talk shit face to face.

Irony?

I'm happy to have women at sporting events or in gaming environments. Just as long as there are no fucking panda's there.

So much for taking you to a Giants game then.

Hell, look at how many comments (here and elsewhere) reduce a woman to her appearance. Michelle Jenneke, who got a whole "sexy dance" video and is famous for that, rather than celebrating her win.

I'm not sure I understand this example. That video was interesting partly because she was attractive and certainly because she was being pretty sexy, but mostly because it was unusual if not unique. Unlike a woman winning a race. I'm willing to bet that happens nearly every minute. As does youtube footage of women doing far "sexier" things.

[Edda van Heefmstra Ruston]

So why's it listed as "dancing sexy as hell", and not a funny dance, or a funny warmup? Why are the comments on the YouTube video things like "i bet she shags like a minx" and "i bet she fucks like a champ" (both within the last 20 minutes) and "I was interested in the two frumpy bitches behind her.

Give it a few years and they'll probably have low enough self esteem to let me get close enough to them to spike their drinks. That's when the fun begins."

If you walked up to someone, do you think they'd be more likely to recognise her name or "that hurdler with the video"? Why did two of our own boarders decide that it was of vital importance that the rest of us know whether they'd fuck her or not?

It's not *just* that it's an unusual warmup; the sexual appeal of her and of the dance is intrinsic to most of the commentary.

ETA: I think it's sort of like the "planned rape" versus "opportunistic rape" discussion from the other thread. This stuff sounds minor, like it's all edge cases and could be ignored, and GOD couldn't we just give people the benefit of the doubt... but sometimes it's the edge cases where you can start chipping away at some of the objectionable behaviour. It's also (for me) completely a case of constant awareness, where I wish the assholes would just knock it off. It's not just one event that is suddenly bad, it's that it's ongoing, and can be difficult to get others to understand.

[Galactus]

My geek idea? Stannis Baratheon needs to show up and order some geldings.

Would that even help though? Isn't that just reinforcing the idea that it's about sex and not power?

[Lord O' Bones]

So why's it listed as "dancing sexy as hell", and not a funny dance, or a funny warmup? Why are the comments on the YouTube video things like "i bet she shags like a minx" and "i bet she fucks like a champ" (both within the last 20 minutes) and "I was interested in the two frumpy bitches behind her.

Give it a few years and they'll probably have low enough self esteem to let me get close enough to them to spike their drinks. That's when the fun begins."

If you walked up to someone, do you think they'd be more likely to recognise her name or "that hurdler with the video"? Why did two of our own boarders decide that it was of vital importance that the rest of us know whether they'd fuck her or not?

It's not *just* that it's an unusual warmup; the sexual appeal of her and of the dance is intrinsic to most of the commentary.

It's unusual because it's sexy. That's the point.

I thought you were talking about the popularity of the video, but if you are including the commentary on youTube it will be a cold day in hell before I remotely try to defend any of that crap.

And the bolded part is a valid point I had not considered.

[Ser Greguh]

I honestly don't think it's because of the nature of what the interest is, or that it's kind of considered "guy stuff." I think in the situations you run into these problems, you run into a lot of people who are resentful of feeling isolated in most places who finally feel like one of the "cool kids" in this one group or at this one event. I talk to a lot of people who qualify as geeks and they're all fine. But I used to go to GenCon every year. Here is a list of things that happened at this large geek friendly event-

-Every day that I spent at the convention itself, every trip- someone, at least once but usually more than once, would touch me without my permission.

-I was followed by creepy dudes taking pictures without my permission- I WAS NOT IN COSTUME.

-I was offered $50 if I would kiss the offerer

-I was asked to be a booth girl

-I was asked what booth I would be at later

-I was asked what party I was stripping at

-I was asked multiple times every trip if I was only there with my boyfriend

-someone slipped a hotel key card in my pocket- two separate occasions

I just think that nerd gatherings bring out the worst in a few insecure bad eggs, where there are also guys who act like this everywhere, you can just spot them easier on account of their Affliction shirts and hats with the sticker still on in most situations

Respecting that this is a terrible experience and that anyone that would do much of what's on this list is well-deserving of a swift kick to the balls, I'd also argue, I think, that most of this sort of behavior isn't so much indicative of misogyny - at least, not the deep-seated sort of misogyny that's being talked about in the OP, but more of a perfect storm of guys who have no idea how to talk to girls or where the line is between hitting on a girl and assaulting her, and who assume - because they're just not used to it - that any girl who steps into "their space" may potentially be interested in them and is therefore "fair game". Again, I'm not saying it's right or that you're wrong to be disgusted by it, just that it's probably not (in most cases) indicative of a deep-seated anti-woman sentiment. (Much of the behavior in online video games, on the other hand, is very misogynistic in nature, though again, I think that's more likely to be a general misanthropy).

I actually think The Big Bang Theory did a pretty good job of nailing the primary geek phenotypes when it comes to dealing with girls. The Howards try to overcome their insecurity and general ineptitude in dealing with girls by wildly overcompensating in a way that drifts into harassment (which is kinda what you're describing), the Rajs are just unable to talk to girls, period, the Sheldons are disinterested, and the Leonards are, despite their fixations, otherwise socially relatively normal.

[Starkess]

I just watched the hurdler video and I don't get it. I think the only thing that is sexy about it is the slow-motion and the fact that she is scantily clad. The former is obviously added and the latter is part of the sport. I honestly don't get it. I've seen lots of athletes warm up and it generally looks like that. :dunno: (The comments are terrible, of course. :ack: )

[Sci-2]

So is this thread even about geeks anymore, or just assuming everyone that uses the internet or plays xbox is one?

Yeah, I think there has been something of a conflation between Reddit culture and geek culture and people who play video games like Call of Duty.

The sad point is people in general are racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. Give them anonymity, and it gets worse.

eta:

Irony?

Heh.

[Shryke]

The idea that anonymity is necessary was disproven by Twitter and Facebook years ago.

[Sci-2]

The idea that anonymity is necessary was disproven by Twitter and Facebook years ago.

touche.

[Starkess]

The idea that anonymity is necessary was disproven by Twitter and Facebook years ago.

I think there is still an aspect of anonymity to it. On Twitter, especially, you are just one little drop in the endless sea. Your real name may be attached, but usually that doesn't make any difference. "Joe Smith" is no more identifying than "LuvsBoobz69" at the end of the day. And the people on your f-list that you know in real life are likely to be people who agree with you substantially enough that you won't shock them with your crap. I think with people who, for example, have a wide range of friends on facebook who they DO know personally or professionally, they are much MUCH more likely to censor themselves. So I think there is still some veil of anonymity that gives people a sense of security. Frequently an entirely false sense of security, but enough to influence what they are willing to reveal about themselves.

[Matrim Fox Cauthon]

Irony?

I would say this is the primary issue that underlies our discussion of "geek culture," particularly relating to video games and the internet. Of course these issues of sexism and racism nevertheless manifest at conventions where anonymity is not present, but they also usually have mob mentality as well.

So why's it listed as "dancing sexy as hell", and not a funny dance, or a funny warmup? Why are the comments on the YouTube video things like "i bet she shags like a minx" and "i bet she fucks like a champ" (both within the last 20 minutes) and "I was interested in the two frumpy bitches behind her.

Give it a few years and they'll probably have low enough self esteem to let me get close enough to them to spike their drinks. That's when the fun begins."

Without fail, I can guarantee you that at least 25 to 50 percent of comments on a female YouTube video blogger's comment wall will be comments about her physical appearance or making sexual comments.

[Kalbear]

I think, that most of this sort of behavior isn't so much indicative of misogyny - at least, not the deep-seated sort of misogyny that's being talked about in the OP, but more of a perfect storm of guys who have no idea how to talk to girls or where the line is between hitting on a girl and assaulting her, and who assume - because they're just not used to it - that any girl who steps into "their space" may potentially be interested in them and is therefore "fair game".

This, to me, is the exact problem, right here. This explanation - that guys 'just don't know any better' or don't have any idea. So what do they do? They harass. they stalk. They pressure, and prod.

Why would the explanation for people doing these sorts of things be 'because they don't know how to talk to girls?' I mean, they know how to talk to humans, on some level, right? They're not slipping into the pockets of random men their hotel key so they can go play D&D with them late into the night.

Why would they think that this is the right course of action? And the answer in my mind is exactly what you say it isn't - that this is exactly the example of deep-seated misogyny prevalent in culture. Even if you're right - even if they really are clueless and ignorant of social norms - their fallback is to either behave like those they've seen on various movies, behave like they've seen others behave and emulate them, or behave in a completely uncivilized manner. And you don't see a connection?

[Seli]

And we cannot have nice things.

Author Genevieve Valentine was harassed earlier this year during Readercon, a convention with a strict zero-tolerance policy and life-ban as the single penalty. She filed a complained, was supported by witnesses, supported by people that had the same problems with the same guy at other conventions. Final result, a 2 year ban of the harasser with the convention ignoring its own rules because 'people can change' and 'he was really sorry'. The fact the harasser is a relatively well known fan and actively involved with other conventions is claimed to be a coincidence.

http://glvalentine.livejournal.com/341417.html

http://readercon.livejournal.com/21805.html

http://matociquala.livejournal.com/2146364.html

[A Song of Hound and Wolves]

Say what? Worse than sports fandom? Or military fandom? Really?

FWIW - I was a female officer in the United States Army. I worked for, with and commanding men, some of whom were straight out of high school. I can say unequivically that I loved my experience and found it to be an environment that allowed me the freedom to be as good as I wanted to be. I understand that not everyone's experience is this way, and that there are pockets of sexism, chauvinism and racism in all organizations. However, I can't think of a single organization, corporation or entity that rises to the level of color-blindness and sexual equality as the U.S.A.

eta also, I'm a geek

[Sci-2]

fwiw, the guy who harassed my ex-gf while we were dating was some douce in volunteering for the Obama campaign. I've heard other people say hipsters and other "liberal" types can be worse about boundaries.

eta: Point being that every group has it's asshats, and I'm suspicious of the number of them hiding in progressive bushes.