“The Watch Takes No Part:” Analyzing Jon’s “Oathbreaking”

[lojzelote]

That's not true. Jon reflects he cannot command his brothers to march south, since the Watch is sworn to take no part, and that making them do so would cause them to forsake their vows.

I think you didn't get my comment. What I was talking about was that Jon didn't think about what Ramsay's threats could mean for the Watch, not what Jon marching to Winterfell would mean for the Watch.

[danm_999]

I think you didn't get my comment. What I was talking about was that Jon didn't think about what Ramsay's threats could mean for the Watch, not what Jon marching to Winterfell would mean for the Watch.

That's kind of impossible to say. Immediatly after Jon reads the letter, a two hour period elapses in which we are given no account of Jon's thoughts or actions, in which he apparently discusses his journey to Winterfell with Tormund.

I don't think it's absurd that in this period he would have reflected what the Pink Letter meant for the Night's Watch as an institution.

[Tagganaro]

Why do you have a problem with the idea of Jon as an oathbreaker? The conflict between love and honour is a strong theme in the book doesn't it make sense to see that again Jon's family feeling triumphs over his oath (but this time there are no brothers on the road to surround him and sing the words of his oath to him)?

Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with the idea of Jon being an oathbreaker. I just don't think he is one, assuming that an oath can only be made knowingly to a certain set of words (the oath to the weirwood). I just don't see how any of Jon's actions can really be interpreted as breaking that oath.

I have to read the chapter more carefully, but Jon knows or at least thinks he knows that Ramsay does not have Arya. Ramsay says as much in the letter lol. "Give me my bride back". Why would Ramsay ask Jon for something that Ramsay already has?

Yes, Jon thinks about his family afterwards, but the march to Winterfell seems more about Ramsay's threat to rip Jon's heart out or whatever, and about Ramsay being a monster that makes cloaks out of human skin. Does Jon say he's going to save Arya? I really don't remember. I remember him being more angry about it than anything else. I could be wrong though. Don't have the books with me right now.

[Arya Targaryen]

I don't think vows matter any more with the Others knocking on the Wall. Those vows kept the NW untouched for 8000 years. Those vows made it possible for them to be the "watchers on the walls". Those vows (having no crown, glory, wife, children) made it possible for them to stay there and not get involved in politics. Those vows were useful until they had practically nothing useful to do but wait. They had to keep themselves to something and it was the oath they made.

But now they have to fight, no matter what words were spoken in front of which gods, if they have family smewhere, they will be even more eager to fight to protect them. They now need to involve themselves in politics, because they need allies. Even if the current King/whatever decides to disband the NW (which might have been a danger for 8000 years if not for the oath, and then no one keeps watching), the Others are here and quite a lot of people know about it. So the NW practically fulfilled its purpose by "being the horn that awakens the sleepers", and now it's time to fight as Men (and not just NW brothers).

So even if Jon breaks his vows, at this point it doesn't (shouldn't) mean anything, until he keeps fighting against the Others. (And along this line I could also argue, that sparing Mance's life at this point is a very good idea and not against any laws, because Mance practically fought against the Others ever since he deserted, so in a way he still kept his vows, or at least that part that is important at this point.)

[Ragnorak]

Why do you have a problem with the idea of Jon as an oathbreaker? The conflict between love and honour is a strong theme in the book doesn't it make sense to see that again Jon's family feeling triumphs over his oath (but this time there are no brothers on the road to surround him and sing the words of his oath to him)?

I can easily see Jon saying that his sister's life is worth more than one man's honor. I don't have a problem with Jon breaking his oath for Arya I just don't think he's done it yet. There is a somewhat prevalant notion that Jon is breaking his oath by "taking part" in the affairs of the realm that seems to assume that the realm has no reciprocal obligation. Jon has plenty of Watch related reasons to be anti-Bolton aside from his personal ones about Arya's wedding. He is walking through a "literal oath" minefield but where he skirts the lines I don't think he's doing it purely for Arya or selfish reasons. His primary motivation is still the greater truths of his oath. That certainly could change at some point.

[lojzelote]

That's kind of impossible to say. Immediatly after Jon reads the letter, a two hour period elapses in which we are given no account of Jon's thoughts or actions, in which he apparents discusses his journey to Winterfell with Tormund.

No. His first thoughts concern his siblings. Then the gap happens. Also, we can't argue that Jon during those two hours thought of the Watch, because we're not there. It's possible he thought of it then, but we really don't know that. We can only speculate.

[Lummel]

I don't see Jon as an oathbreaker to the watch, though, according to the actual vow-- not the customary inertia of keeping neutral. I read it such that it's not about family, but rather that what he's planning is in direct service to the Watch; it happens to align with personal desire (like Ygritte, beheading Slynt), but the contention is that Jon is acting "for the Watch" foremost. (Whereas the first time he tried to desert, it was primarily for family honor; in this case, family is secondary and non-essential to his aims).

ETA:

Yes, he's breaking custom, but neutrality is not part of the actual vow no matter how you interpret it, which is what we're trying to highlight. We approve of his breaking custom when the need presents itself, but contend that he is keeping true to the Watch.

"The Night's Watch takes no part in the wars of the Seven Kingdoms," Jon reminded them when some semblance of quiet had returned. "It is not for us to oppose the Bastard of Bolton, to avenge Stannis Baratheon, to defend his widow and his daughter. This creature who makes cloaks from the skins of women has sworn to cut my heart out, and I mean to make him answer for those words...but I will not ask my brothers to foreswear their vows.

"The Night's watch will make for Hardhome. I ride to Winterfell alone, unless..." Jon paused. "...is there any man here who will come stand with me?"

...

Yarwyck and Marsh were slipping out, he saw, and all their men behind them. It made no matter. He did not need them now. He did not want them. No man can ever say I made my brothers break their vows. If this is oathbreaking, the crime is mine and mine alone.

Jon XIII page 911 of the hardback (UK and US pagination apparently the same).

Well Jon doesn't pitch going south in the rational terms of the OP - that approach isn't of interest to him.

Jon does not ask or require anybody to break their vows.

Jon doesn't know if what he intends to do is or isn't oathbreaking - but the point is either way he doesn't care.

Jon doesn't care because he's not thinking of the watch - he's thinking of family as we see earlier:

..."what do you mean to do now, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell...I want my bride back...I want my bride back...I want my bride back...

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

Jon XIII page 909

Love is the bane of honour and the death of duty. Jon doesn't think he is true to the watch, he thinks he might not be and that's enough to not oblige any brother to go with him but the point is - he doesn't care. When he decides to go south it's a moment of pure emotion of total love and loyalty to his family. It is not a rational calculation seeking the best rational advantage for the Watch.

ETA

This is a huge moment for Jon and contrasts with the earlier execution of Slynt in Jon II. For me Jon's decision is a step into adulthood - what kind of a man is he going to be? Is he going to be true to his oath and become a man of the night's watch like Harren the Black's brother, or is he going to be true to blood, family and kin and be a family man?

Then finally some people step up to kill the boy and let the man be born.

[danm_999]

No. His first thoughts concern his siblings. Than the gap happens. Also, we can't argue that Jon during those two hours thought of the Watch, because we're not there. It's possible he thought of it then, but we really don't know that. We can only speculate.

Right, so you're point that he doesn't think of the Watch isn't accurate, since we don't know. Best case scenario, he thinks of the Watch belatedly.

[Lummel]

No. His first thoughts concern his siblings. Than the gap happens. Also, we can't argue that Jon during those two hours thought of the Watch, because we're not there. It's possible he thought of it then, but we really don't know that. We can only speculate.

we know he's talking to Tormund so he's not likely to be discussing the implications of the oath. From context "I think we had best change the plan" means that they discuss and agree for the period of the interval a new plan that has Tormund going to Hardhome and Jon going to Winterfell.

[ARYa_Nym]

Yeah, I fail to see why Jon looks better if he lets his sister be raped. He knew what Ramsay was like and his initial reaction was to be dutiful and say I have no sister.

It's not the end of the world to be an oathbreaker. In fact Jon being dutiful and honorable 24/7 would just give those who think he's a Gary Stu more ammunition. Ned chose family when it came down to it even though I find Saint Ned annoying.

& I'm pretty sure it was a message in the books that there needs to be limits to following oaths because it says more about you as a person. If you let a person be burned alive because it's your orders then you're a yes man.

[dtones520]

I don't think vows matter any more with the Others knocking on the Wall. Those vows kept the NW untouched for 8000 years. Those vows made it possible for them to be the "watchers on the walls". Those vows (having no crown, glory, wife, children) made it possible for them to stay there and not get involved in politics. Those vows were useful until they had practically nothing useful to do but wait. They had to keep themselves to something and it was the oath they made.

But now they have to fight, no matter what words were spoken in front of which gods, if they have family smewhere, they will be even more eager to fight to protect them. They now need to involve themselves in politics, because they need allies. Even if the current King/whatever decides to disband the NW (which might have been a danger for 8000 years if not for the oath, and then no one keeps watching), the Others are here and quite a lot of people know about it. So the NW practically fulfilled its purpose by "being the horn that awakens the sleepers", and now it's time to fight as Men (and not just NW brothers).

So even if Jon breaks his vows, at this point it doesn't (shouldn't) mean anything, until he keeps fighting against the Others. (And along this line I could also argue, that sparing Mance's life at this point is a very good idea and not against any laws, because Mance practically fought against the Others ever since he deserted, so in a way he still kept his vows, or at least that part that is important at this point.)

But Jon leaving the Wall to fight Ramsay is essentially him abandoning his fight against the Others and his efforts to strengthen the forces of man with building a Wildling army against them. No one knows when the Others are going to attack, so what if they do the day after Jon leaves for Winterfell? What if Jon is killed by Ramsay, he has now weakened the Watch by one and probably provoked the Boltons to attack Castle Black for Jon's actions in attacking Ramsay.

You ae essentially saying it is okay for everyone in the Watch to leave the Wall, when the Wall needs men more than ever, as long as they are back in time to fight the Others.

[lojzelote]

Right, so you're point that he doesn't think of the Watch isn't accurate, since we don't know. Best case scenario, he thinks of the Watch belatedly.

Well, what I wanted to point out is, that since the justification of Jon's actions stands on "He did it because he thought it's in the best interests of the Watch", it would be nice to see him at least think about it. We're in his head after all. I want a proof. "He did it off-screen" is not good enough for me.

[Brony Stark]

But Jon leaving the Wall to fight Ramsay is essentially him abandoning his fight against the Others and his efforts to strengthen the forces of man with building a Wildling army against them. No one knows when the Others are going to attack, so what if they do the day after Jon leaves for Winterfell? What if Jon is killed by Ramsay, he has now weakened the Watch by one and probably provoked the Boltons to attack Castle Black for Jon's actions in attacking Ramsay.

You ae essentially saying it is okay for everyone in the Watch to leave the Wall, when the Wall needs men more than ever, as long as they are back in time to fight the Others.

Would Ramsey stop at Jon? No. He'd fucking wipe the NW off the map, even if Jon didn't go south, it was in the interests of the Watch that Jon would go south, even if it wasn't Jons reasons

[Lonin]

I dont want Jon to be an oath/vow breaker, but it is hard to see his actions with Stannis, deciding to march to Winterfell as anything but stretching his oath to the breaking point. I also think that "neutrality" is an operative part of the NW vows... why else was Robert B, a know hater of all Targs, not concerned about a Targ at the wall. I am awaiting the next book to see how GRRM has Jon emerge from his latest cliffhanger with honor intact. We could see Robb's will or Stannis's offer to legitimize Jon come into play.

While the Bolton's are among my least favorite houses, they are an old, powerful, and established house in the North... I think the North would follow the Boltons...

[Spiderweaves]

Can someone with a greater command of the books than I have shed some light on Jon's original sentiments towards the NW? He wanted to join it, right? Did he make that decision before he knew himself well enough, perhaps?

[Winterfellian]

But Jon leaving the Wall to fight Ramsay is essentially him abandoning his fight against the Others and his efforts to strengthen the forces of man with building a Wildling army against them. No one knows when the Others are going to attack, so what if they do the day after Jon leaves for Winterfell?

Is very difficult to judge in this situation until we know for sure what Jon discussed with his 2 hour discussion with Tormund. For all we know he might have taken steps to secure the wall in his absence. Not to mention he fully intended to come back. He wasn't simply deserting.

Besides, staying at the wall and waiting for the others to come upon you from the north and the Boltons from the south wasn't a great plan either. He did what was needed given the cirscumtances even if by doing it meant stepping out of the oath.

[butterbumps!]

Jon XIII page 911 of the hardback (UK and US pagination apparently the same).

Well Jon doesn't pitch going south in the rational terms of the OP - that approach isn't of interest to him.

Jon does not ask or require anybody to break their vows.

Jon doesn't know if what he intends to do is or isn't oathbreaking - but the point is either way he doesn't care.

Jon doesn't care because he's not thinking of the watch - he's thinking of family as we see earlier:

Love is the bane of honour and the death of duty. JOn doesn't think he is true to the watch, he thinks he might not be and that's enough to not oblige any brother to go with him but the point is - he doesn't care. When he decides to go south it's a moment of pure emotion of total love and loyalty to his family. It is not a rational calculation seeking the best rational advantage for the Watch.

So just to begin, I don't have an issue with Jon's oathbreaking, like Tag said above, I just don't think that's what he's actually doing. There's a difference between the actual vow that the NW takes, and the tradition of maintaining neutrality; the neutrality is not part of the vow. What "vow" are you saying that Jon is breaking? I am with you on the fact that he's breaking custom, tradition, possibly even law (though I don't know if neutrality is actually a law), but what I'm getting at is that all of his choices point to the service of the NW, rooted in the essence of the actual vow he spoke. The vow does not forbid involvement in the realm.

..."what do you mean to do now, crow?"

Jon flexed the fingers of his sword hand. The Night's Watch takes no part. He closed his fist and opened it again. What you propose is nothing less than treason. He thought of Robb, with snowflakes melting in his hair. Kill the boy and let the man be born. He thought of Bran, clambering up a tower wall, agile as a monkey. Of Rickon's breathless laughter. Of Sansa, brushing out Lady's coat and singing to herself. You know nothing, Jon Snow. He thought of Arya, her hair as tangled as a bird's nest. I made him a warm cloak from the skins of the six whores who came with him to Winterfell...I want my bride back...I want my bride back...I want my bride back...

"I think we had best change the plan," Jon Snow said.

(I was in the middle of typing this, so thanks.) I have a different interpretation of this than you do, I think. He's thinking about his siblings as casualties of the War of the 5 kings- the cost of the Iron Throne. I believe he thinks them all dead or beyond saving- even Arya at this point. He's thinking about the fact that he did nothing to save any of them, and that all of this came about because of the stupid Iron Throne. I think he's deciding to take direct action now, not as vengeance or trying to save anyone, but because the Iron Throne must be challenged.

Yes, chapter 13 doesn't have anything explicit about Jon's rational motivations for announcing his plans, and I think that's purposeful to keep suspense. What he appeals to in the hall is however, the fact that the Boltons are planning to attack to the Wall, thereby violating neutrality, and that as LC he means to take action. He doesn't speak to vengeance or love. There are some crucial pieces missing from that conversation and Jon's thoughts after he reads the letter; given everything leading up to this chapter- the fact that Jon forgoes vengeance, that he puts service to the Watch above honor to his family- suggests to me that there is a more rational and calculated basis for his decision to march south.

But the main thing I'm trying to say is that marching south to secure Winterfell is not technically oathbreaking according to the vow he actually spoke. Are you saying that he's not motivated by service to the Watch at this point, so that appeals to keeping to the true essence of the Watch are moot?

Btw, Lummel, I thought we were pals! :cool4:

[dtones520]

Would Ramsey stop at Jon? No. He'd fucking wipe the NW off the map, even if Jon didn't go south, it was in the interests of the Watch that Jon would go south, even if it wasn't Jons reasons

Then Jon aught to let Ramsay come attack Castle Black on his own. Jon has an army of Wildlings, members of the Nights Watch, a giant, a priestess who has some pretty awesome powers all with him at Castle Black. If Ramsay comes to fight Jon and the Watch, that also means he leaves Winterfell less defended and based on what you believe happened to Stannis, would probably make it ripe for the taking.

There is nothing about Jon going South that makes sense for the Nights Watch.

[Scipio Africanus]

Then Jon aught to let Ramsay come attack Castle Black on his own. Jon has an army of Wildlings, members of the Nights Watch, a giant, a priestess who has some pretty awesome powers all with him at Castle Black. If Ramsay comes to fight Jon and the Watch, that also means he leaves Winterfell less defended and based on what you believe happened to Stannis, would probably make it ripe for the taking.

There is nothing about Jon going South that makes sense for the Nights Watch.

There aren't that many NW rangers left. They're a depleted force. And they're one of the few supposedly trained units there. The Wildlings consist of a lot of women and children, they're not all men of fighting age. Giants aren't "ftw" warriors, they're imposing but can get killed almost as easily as a human. There were few knights/men-at-arms remaning with Selyse. Mel's powers aren't like those of Gandalf, she can't just firebomb the joint.

Castle Black has no fortifications on the south side. Meaning Jon would've had to give battle in open ground. Ramsay would've crushed Jon's forces even if he lost a lot of men to Stan at Winterfell. Jon can't know in what shape Ramsay's forces are.

[dtones520]

Is very difficult to judge in this situation until we know for sure what Jon discussed with his 2 hour discussion with Tormund. For all we know he might have taken steps to secure the wall in his absence. Not to mention he fully intended to come back. He wasn't simply deserting.

Besides, staying at the wall and waiting for the others to come upon you from the north and the Boltons from the south wasn't a great plan either. He did what was needed given the cirscumtances even if by doing it meant stepping out of the oath.

And we all have known since the first two chapters of the series what the penalty for breaking your oath to the Nights Watch is, death. And if Jon had plans for securing the Wall in his absence, why did he not lay that plan it when he told his brothers his plans to South