Breaking Bad Discussion II

[Kaldaur]

I think VG said that Cranston added that line in on his own, so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Cranston ad-libbed the line, yes. But VG left it in the show. They could have simply done another take without that line, and since VG called attention to it in an interview we shouldn't dismiss it out-of-hand. I think the Scarface metaphor goes further than just "Chips to Scarface". I think it's giving us a warning of what's to come.

[Morpheus]

Yeah, plus at least with Jaime you can still say that he did it of out love/family. Walt has almost fully succumbed to pride.

If we are going to play that game you can say the same about Walt poisioning Brock. Walt posioned Brock to protect his own children, Gus had just threatened to kill them and Skyler had dried up the funds that might otherwise have saved them. He needed Jesse to help kill Gus and decided he would risk a child he did not know to save own.

Realistically, they are both child endangering scum bags.

[drawkcabi]

I feel like the people still rooting for Walt have missed the entire point of the show.

Just wanted to say I agree mostly with you and I'm not rooting for Walt, I'm rooting for awesome story, it's just that how much of a different character Cranston is playing, when he gets in some situations (mostly in earlier seasons granted) I still can't help but see Hal in him and so I'm putting that out there as to why others seem so loyal to that character.

ETA:

To bring this whole thing back round to Seinfeld (it always comes back to Seinfeld). Even though I do think Walt is an evil bastard now, I do have an easier time disliking Cranston's Tim Whatley character on Seinfeld more than Walt. For some reason slimey-dentist-regifter-who-converts-to-judaism-for-the-jokes-guy is worse than evil ruthless villian guy even though ruthless Walt hurts more people. or... Oh shit! Am I anti-dentite?

[7V3N]

Just wanted to say I agree mostly with you and I'm not rooting for Walt, I'm rooting for awesome story, it's just that how much of a different character Cranston is playing, when he gets in some situations (mostly in earlier seasons granted) I still can't help but see Hal in him and so I'm putting that out there as to why others seem so loyal to that character.

I never watched Malcolm in the Middle (I can't stand Frankie Muniz), but part of me says, "Walt, I think you've gone too far and at this point you need to be wiped out. But please, please, please remember the list and start working towards redemption."

[naz]

As with most shows, I guess, my particular affinity for certain characters will shift according to the narrative. I assume everyone does this, but I could be wrong. E.g., when it's Walt against the drug dealers he clocked with the Aztek, I see myself rooting for Walt. But when he manipulates Jesse, I hate him.

It gets complicated at times, like when it's Walt against Gus at various moments of last season. Or Gus vs. Hector Salamanca. I mean, during the flashback when Hector shoots his partner, you're wishing upon Hector the worst, most painful death imaginable. Then, when Gus shows up at the nursing home, you're rooting for Hector to take him out, mainly because of the way Gus is endangering Walt and Jesse. Then, this season, you kind of wish Gus had managed to kill Walt instead.

I think it's a testament to the show's complex narrative and the writers' skill that they're able to toy with our associations and emotions so easily.

[Anya, Vengeance Demon]

To bring this whole thing back round to Seinfeld (it always comes back to Seinfeld). Even though I do think Walt is an evil bastard now, I do have an easier time disliking Cranston's Tim Whatley character on Seinfeld more than Walt. For some reason slimey-dentist-regifter-who-converts-to-judaism-for-the-jokes-guy is worse than evil ruthless villian guy even though ruthless Walt hurts more people. or... Oh shit! Am I anti-dentite?

"Next you'll be saying that they should have their own schools!" "They DO have their own schools!" "AH-HA!"

[Francis Buck]

As with most shows, I guess, my particular affinity for certain characters will shift according to the narrative. I assume everyone does this, but I could be wrong. E.g., when it's Walt against the drug dealers he clocked with the Aztek, I see myself rooting for Walt. But when he manipulates Jesse, I hate him.

It gets complicated at times, like when it's Walt against Gus at various moments of last season. Or Gus vs. Hector Salamanca. I mean, during the flashback when Hector shoots his partner, you're wishing upon Hector the worst, most painful death imaginable. Then, when Gus shows up at the nursing home, you're rooting for Hector to take him out, mainly because of the way Gus is endangering Walt and Jesse. Then, this season, you kind of wish Gus had managed to kill Walt instead.

I think it's a testament to the show's complex narrative and the writers' skill that they're able to toy with our associations and emotions so easily.

Yeah, I totally agree with this -- my opinions on the characters almost exactly followed yours. Hell, I even felt kind of bad for the Twins during that flashback to them as children. Of course that didn't last, but still, it shows you that these characters are not all just evil bastards (or at least they weren't always evil bastards).

It's also why I said earlier in this thread that I have a feeling the show will do a 180 with Walt. I feel like they're going to continue demonizing him as much as possible, only to pull something in the end that will have (at least some of) us rooting for him again by the end.

By the way, is the eighth episode's title still a secret? I hope it's Fifty-Two. I really don't feel like waiting an entire fucking year to find out where Walt is headed with that M60.

[Reposado]

I personally believe in legalizing drugs. That doesn't in any way mean that I support, justify, admire, or glorify drug dealers.

isn't the main reason for legalizing drugs to put drug dealers out of business?

I feel like the people still rooting for Walt have missed the entire point of the show.

i disagree. unless you think that people watch scarface rooting for pacino to go down. some might but i would guess the majority of people root for tony montana, michael corelone, etc and it's not because they don't get it. they are compelling characters. walt commands the screen. and we've been with him the whole time. we've seen him up. we've seen him down. we understand how he got here, even if at times he's made choices we wouldn't have.

[Francis Buck]

isn't the main reason for legalizing drugs to put drug dealers out of business?

i disagree. unless you think that people watch scarface rooting for pacino to go down. some might but i would guess the majority of people root for tony montana, michael corelone, etc and it's not because they don't get it. they are compelling characters. walt commands the screen. and we've been with him the whole time. we've seen him up. we've seen him down. we understand how he got here, even if at times he's made choices we wouldn't have.

I think the difference is that, unlike say Scarface and especially Michael Corleone, Walt's portrayal is not as glorified. He's often shown as weak, petty, egotistical, so on and so forth. I'm not saying that he doesn't have his moments of glory (every season so far has had at least one big scene like that), but by this point in the show the audience knows that Walt is just not as great as he thinks he is. We see the less appealing side of him far more often than was ever seen with a character like Michael Corleone (there's also the fact that those are movies, while this is a TV show, so there's a lot more room for a more "rounded" development of the character).

[Reposado]

I think the difference is that, unlike say Scarface and especially Michael Corleone, Walt's portrayal is not as glorified. He's often shown as weak, petty, egotistical, so on and so forth. I'm not saying that he doesn't have his moments of glory (every season so far has had at least one big scene like that), but by this point in the show the audience knows that Walt is just not as great as he thinks he is. We see the less appealing side of him far more often than was ever seen with a character like Michael Corleone (there's also the fact that those are movies, while this is a TV show, so there's a lot more room for a more "rounded" development of the character).

sure, but i don't just mean that they're cool. they're interesting and interestingly portrayed. walt even more so because he's so human. he's just great to watch.

and we wanna say tv, avon barksdale, al swearingen, boyd crowder. all could have been viewed as the villain, and probably would be in real life, but tons of people rooted for all of them. they made for great tv. their stories were interesting.

[Jabronius Maximus]

I think the difference is that, unlike say Scarface and especially Michael Corleone, Walt's portrayal is not as glorified. He's often shown as weak, petty, egotistical, so on and so forth. I'm not saying that he doesn't have his moments of glory (every season so far has had at least one big scene like that), but by this point in the show the audience knows that Walt is just not as great as he thinks he is. We see the less appealing side of him far more often than was ever seen with a character like Michael Corleone (there's also the fact that those are movies, while this is a TV show, so there's a lot more room for a more "rounded" development of the character).

I think that's part of the dark humor in the show. Walt may be smart, relentless, precise (with a pinch of evil), but at the end of the day he's still a 51 year old chemistry teacher experiencing a thrilling life for what seems to be the first time ever. Moments like the truck-magnet falling on the evidence building (I burst out laughing) suggest he's in over his head, and just a regular dude.

[TrackerNeil]

I think that's part of the dark humor in the show. Walt may be smart, relentless, precise (with a pinch of evil), but at the end of the day he's still a 51 year old chemistry teacher experiencing a thrilling life for what seems to be the first time ever. Moments like the truck-magnet falling on the evidence building (I burst out laughing) suggest he's in over his head, and just a regular dude.

A pinch of evil? A pinch? Walter has killed how many people? Crazy 8, Jane, those two drug dealers who worked for Gus, two other goons who worked for Gus, Tyrus, and of course Gus himself. He plotted Gale's death and encouraged Jesse to carry it out. He's lied to his family. He's exposed his family to danger. And let's not forget the ten-year-old he poisoned to manipulate his partner in crime. That is one hell of a pinch.

[Morpheus]

Some of those murders were self defense or the defense of his family or Jesse. I am not condoning them, or denying their brutality or that Walt is responsible for putting himself in a situation where his life and others would be endangered in the first place, but those people were criminals just as much as Walt and running the same risks or likely to kill someone themselves. Jane stands out as the most egregious, even with Gale, he put himself in that lifesytle just as much as Walt did, he may have been a sweet guy, but he was a criminal all the same, and Gus all but told him that Walt was going to be removed from the picture. The worst thing about Gale was that he pushed Jesse to become more like him in murdering his replacement.

My point being, if the worst thing Walt had done was killing those other criminals, he would probably be more in line with some of the mob styled anti-heroes people mentioned above. Jane, the posioning of Brock, the manipulation, the constantly exposing his family to danger, the lies, and his overall demenor, the unflattering aspects of his personality, have pushed him over the edge, from anti-hero to full on villain.

I think they have walked a fine line, putting us iin Walt's shoes for certain actions, like when he killed those drug dealers, it was a brutal double homicide, but he did save Jesse's life, and letting us judge other actions as unforgiveable.

[Jabronius Maximus]

A pinch of evil? A pinch? Walter has killed how many people? Crazy 8, Jane, those two drug dealers who worked for Gus, two other goons who worked for Gus, Tyrus, and of course Gus himself. He plotted Gale's death and encouraged Jesse to carry it out. He's lied to his family. He's exposed his family to danger. And let's not forget the ten-year-old he poisoned to manipulate his partner in crime. That is one hell of a pinch.

I agree with Morpheus, most of his killings were in self defense, in Jesse's defense, or in his family's defense. The pinch of evil is Jane, and also where Walt refuses to opt out of the criminal life. He had that Grey Matter opportunity, which he turned down. He made good money with Tuco, yet he continued to cook after Tuco's demise. Gus nearly cost him his and his family's lives, yet he continues to push forward, and now his family seems more like a roadblock than a motivation. Poisoning Brock was evil, but it was done in a process to kill a man who threatened Walt's family.

It's definitely more than a pinch, especially now in season 5, but Walt isn't all out evil like you make him out to be.

For the record I'm rooting for Hank and not Walt.

[TrackerNeil]

I agree with Morpheus, most of his killings were in self defense, in Jesse's defense, or in his family's defense. The pinch of evil is Jane

The only killing that could be said to be in true self-defense was Crazy 8, and only in that moment. Otherwise, no way. You don't get to put yourself into a dangerous, criminal lifestyle that requires killing and then cry self defense! when you're required to kill people. I suspect that doesn't fly legally, and I know it doesn't fly morally.

As to Jane, that was a bit more than a pinch of evil. He put her in a situation where she was endangered, and then did nothing - nothing - when that danger struck. Remember a few episodes later when Walt finds a despondent Jesse tripping out in a flophouse? Jesse breaks down and weeps in his arms like a little boy, easily one of the most poignant television scenes I know, yet it is not enough to turn Walt aside from his destructive course.

Oh, and I think slipping poison to a ten-year-old pretty much qualifies as not a pinch of evil but a big ol' bucket. Criminy.

[Mad Queen]

A lot of villains are fun to watch, and Walt even more so than most, but a villain he is, and I'm not rooting for him. If you don't realize the damage Walt's actions have inflicted on everyone, you are missing the point of the show. The writers have gone out of their way to emphasize this idea (plane crash!).

[TrackerNeil]

A lot of villains are fun to watch, and Walt even more so than most, but a villain he is, and I'm not rooting for him. If you don't realize the damage Walt's actions have inflicted on everyone, you are missing the point of the show. The writers have gone out of their way to emphasize this idea (plane crash!).

I think it's natural for viewers/readers to want to sympathize with the protaganist, and will sometimes do so even when that character has proven himself quite unworthy of sympathy. I can't tell you how many people continue to defend Theon Greyjoy's actions towards the end of A Clash of Kings. However, as you said, sometimes you have to realize, "Hey, this guy is NOT a hero." Which Walter White most assuredly is not. He is a lying, murdering, drug-dealing criminal.

[Francis Buck]

I've always been sort of confused on the whole Walt poisoning Brock thing. They simply state that Brock was poisoned by the Lilly of the Valley plant he had by his pool, and that was that. Is any more explained? Like... how does Walt get the plant to Brock? Kids dont usually just eat plants laying around...

I feel like I missed a very important episode.

We see Saul giving candy to Brock once or twice during his visits to Andrea in S4, and then they mention it briefly in the first episode of S5, so it's implied that Saul somehow gave Brock the poison. The exact details are never divulged though (I remember reading in an interview with Vince Gilligan last year that this whole part of the plan was the most awkward to figure out, which makes sense).

[Ken Stone]

Here is why I cheer for Walt. Because if Walt died the show would suck. Walter White is the show. I love the show. Short of smothering his baby with a pillow, or viciously raping Jr, Walt could do almost anything and I will still root for him.

[Arbor Gold]

In a previous episode, Walt is in the backyard spinning a gun on the table. It keeps spinning and pointing to him, except for the last time it spins and points to a plant. It's the same plant we see later, and that's the moment he hatches the plan.