Learning to Lead IV: sucess in failure? An ADWD Daenerys and Jon reread project

[Winter's Knight]

I think that I should admit right now that I am a massive Cersei fan - is there some kind of support group somewhere?

We could sure use one.

[Fire Eater]

I think that Cersei gets a really bad rep as a leader and I don't think that it is entirely justified. She has learnt, from her father, that those who work against you should be rooted out. Tywin destroyed the Reynes of Castamere, he betrayed the Targaryens... Cersei's rule is derived from Tywin's.

Cersei rearms the Faith, denies payment to the Iron Bank resulting in the Iron Bank giving their support to Stannis, has Qyburn perform his experiments on people, fills her small council with lickspittles, and picks a Master of Ships who absconds with her new-made royal fleet. You're saying none of this justifies that she is a bad leader. :dunno:

[Winter's Knight]

Cersei rearms the Faith, denies payment to the Iron Bank resulting in the Iron Bank giving their support to Stannis, has Qyburn perform his experiments on people, fills her small council with lickspittles, and picks a Master of Ships who absconds with her new-made royal fleet. You're saying none of this justifies that she is a bad leader. :dunno:

Re: Arming the Faith. She took the lesser of two bad decisions-Tommen needed the Faith's blessing and there were enough mutterings about his legitimacy as it is. Arming the Faith meant that there was now a force that could protect the smallfolk independent of the various lord's armies, it made the roads safer and provided some security for a large number of unattached men as well as providing an alternative to the Watch for younger sons.

[Fire Eater]

Re: Arming the Faith. She took the lesser of two bad decisions-Tommen needed the Faith's blessing and there were enough mutterings about his legitimacy as it is. Arming the Faith meant that there was now a force that could protect the smallfolk independent of the various lord's armies, it made the roads safer and provided some security for a large number of unattached men as well as providing an alternative to the Watch for younger sons.

The Faith ends up jailing Cersei, leading to Kevan to claim the Regency, and to Cersei to losing her power. She is to be put on trial with the parentage of her children being one of the charges, and her role in the death of Robert.

Like I said, the emperor wears no clothes.

[Winter's Knight]

The Faith ends up jailing Cersei, leading to Kevan to claim the Regency, and to Cersei to losing her power. She is to be put on trial with the parentage of her children being one of the charges, and her role in the death of Robert.

Like I said, the emperor wears no clothes.

As a ruler, rearming the Faith'd have looked like a good decision at that time-now, if she had somehow managed to look into the future, she may not have done so. But at that point in time,she did not have that much of a choice.

[Lummel]

...Comparing these women; the lioness and the dragon, it could be argued that one relies wholly on her identity to rule and the other attempts to mask hers. Perhaps Cersei should have tried to hide the inner beast while dealing with her courtiers in King’s Landing? Perhaps Dany should have embraced the dragon – she has after all caused great pain in this city – being the fierce Queen might have bought her more respect from her people? Perhaps Dany needed to get off the fence and show favour to one side above the other?

Well we've seen the opposition between fear and love before as alternative strategies, and that's probably the problem, don't they need to be understood by rulers to be tools that have to be used appropriately to achieve results. Employed in a pure form as strategies perhaps failure is inenvitable, not everyone will love you and fear will bred resentment and hate as much as obedience.

Their beasts heraldric beasts are interesting as they both feed off other animals - symbolically that doesn't bode well for the ruled,

The big difference for me is that the dragons make Daenerys a source of power, destructive but also creative, Cersei can't create anything new, she is stuck inside the structures and limitations of the Seven Kingdoms. Daenerys can define the limits of her authority, Cersei is stuck within the confines of being regent for Tommen and the consideration of what is seemly and appropriate.

The latter part of the dream, Tyrion arrives and laughs at her along with the rest of the court when Cersei realizes she is naked and the Iron Throne starts to cut her.

...Being cut by the Iron Throne is taken as a sign that the monarch isn't fit to sit it...

Now this is really interesting because this is not something that actually happens, this is Cersei's own dream - so even in her own mind she doesn't consider herself worthy!

Going back a couple chapters, I had a thought about Arnolf Karstark's comment to Jon about sampling Alys himself. Does this have anything to do with First Night? Roose mentions the Umbers supposedly still practice it though not the Karstarks IIRC. Lords Right seems to have applied to smallfolk for the most part, but supposedly Kings could invoke it even for lords and the Starks have just resumed their status as Kings in the North. The similarity to Axell's Val comments made me gloss over this completely.

If it is a First Night reference, I also wonder if fear of resuming this practice among lords has any influence on the anti-Bolton sentiment, especially given the current treatment of "Arya," and just how that plays into the Northern Lords' views of Jon. I don't want to sidetrack into a Great Northern Conspiracy discussion here, but if it is a First Night reference does that tell us anything about Jon (how his relationship with Val might be viewed by others for example) or is it just a sad commentary on Arnolf?

My initial impression was that this was extreme rudeness on the Karstark part, but your first night suggestion is interesting because surely the only persons in the North who could claim a right of first night with a noblewoman would be the Stark in Winterfell or the King of Westeros. Now if Karstark consider Jon to be some kind of ersatz for either that would be really saying something.

On the otherhand, not to get to carried away with a good idea, Jon is a sworn Black Brother he's not meant to father children. The comment could then be a taunt as much as anything implying that Karstark sees him as the kind of Brother who would break his oath, a Snow who would take on the rights that properly can only belong to a Stark. It's also comtemptable to speak of his own cousin and kinswoman that way, safe to assume that "How to Win friends and influence people" isn't something he's read.

[Loras]

Cersei rearms the Faith, denies payment to the Iron Bank resulting in the Iron Bank giving their support to Stannis, has Qyburn perform his experiments on people, fills her small council with lickspittles, and picks a Master of Ships who absconds with her new-made royal fleet. You're saying none of this justifies that she is a bad leader. :dunno:

Before we derail this thread too far:

I agree with Winter's Knight regarding the Faith of the Seven. Ultimately the High Septon was going to acknowledge the legitimacy of Tommen and in Cersei's mind this cemented the Lannisters on the throne. It is not dissimilar to Daenerys agreeing to marry Hizdahr if he stopped the killings of the sons of the Harpy.

The Iron Bank could have been handled much more cordially, however, Robert clearly didn't offer repayments in his years as monarch - why should Cersei?

As for Qyburn, his experiments are not causing huge problems for anybody. And if we can use hindsight to say that Cersei shouldn't have rearmed the Faith, then we can use it to say that his experiments are the only way she could have a competent champion.

Finally, regarding Aurane Waters, he left after Cersei had been imprisoned. After Cersei was removed from power by the Faith he took the fleet. His power derived from hers, so when she lost power he knew that he would too. Hence the getaway.

Now this is really interesting because this is not something that actually happens, this is Cersei's own dream - so even in her own mind she doesn't consider herself worthy!

This, in my opinion, is a relic of the Maggy prophecy. Cersei is clearly comfortable - even in her dream - passing judgement on other people. She is smiling down on them. It is only when her valonqar appears that things start to go awry.

I think the second part of the dream is emphasising what Tyrion means to Cersei - but it also shows how incredibly paranoid she is and suggests that her paranoia regarding Tyrion will be part of her downfall.

I don't believe the dream is about how worthy she is - she has known she would be Queen for a very long time - but how long she will have in the sun before the valonqar ends everything.

[PatrickStormborn]

As a ruler, rearming the Faith'd have looked like a good decision at that time-now, if she had somehow managed to look into the future, she may not have done so. But at that point in time,she did not have that much of a choice.

Yeah, I agree. Re-arming the Faith actually seems like a good move without the benefit of Hindsight -- Tommen got annointed, the crown's debt was absolved, and it put a check on the Tyrell army in King's Landing. Cersei's mistake was not taking them as a serious threat, imo.

[Fire Eater]

@Loras

"Though large, the crown incomes are not large enough to keep abreast of Robert's debts. Accordingly, I have decided to defer our repayments of the sums owed the Holy Faith and the Iron Bank of Braavos until war's end." The new High Septon would doubtless wring his holy hands, and the Braavosi would squeak and squawk at her, but what of it?

Final comments, the crown under Robert did repay loans to the Iron Bank until Cersei ceased repayment to the Iron Bank and the Faith. The High Septon chose not to anoint Tommen as king initially, not because he was demanding a full repayment of the loan, but because Cersei had ceased repayment of the loan to the Faith in the first place. All she had to do was to start repayments to the Faith, but instead chose to rearm the Faith against Pycelle's advice.

[Punchslap]

As for Qyburn, his experiments are not causing huge problems for anybody.

Other than to those subjected to them, presumably.

[Blisscraft]

Fear and Love - each is a source of power for female leadership. There is no greater expression for both aspects than in the archetype of "Mother."

The Mother archetype is simultaneously nuturing and devouring. Love, the nurturing, protective, ameliorating aspect of the Mother and fear, the devouring, shaming, destructive aspect. Both Cersei and Dany illustrate aspects of the Mother in their respective leadership roles. Cersei and Dany are both "mothers." Cersei's three children are born of incest and deceit. Dany loses her "human" baby and "gives birth" to three dragons born of blood magic. Shadows surround the births of their children.

Cersei's children generate shadows and are surrounded by shadows because of the "secret" identity of their father. None of her children are "trueborn" heirs to the throne. The secret of their birth father is hidden in plain sight. Cersei's power is derived from the "father" of her children. It flows from Robert to her and then to "their" children as heirs to the Iron Throne. In ADWD, Cersei's decisions to maintain the appearance of legitimacy, casting shadows away from his "natural father," regarding Tommen, as noted above with regard to rearming the Faith and other disasterous decisions, result in her losing her power (and all of her hair).

Dany's children, by the time of ADWD, must also be hidden in the shadows even though their presence, their very existence is the source of Dany's power in Slaver's Bay. It is the fear of her children that causes the slaver's to yield and creates her place as Queen in Meereen. Drogon is called "the winged shadow," in the Hazzea chapters. Unbound and free, his shadow is destructive and damaging to Dany's reign and ultimately undoes her position as Queen.

I agree that Dany wants to be loved as a "mother" to her people. But for her to be loved by her people requires denying her "children."

As for Cersei, as noted above, she has been taught by her experience that power is maintained through fear. However, it is her love for her children that disarms her and arms her enemies.

[butterbumps!]

JON XII

Overview

The chapter opens in the midst of Jon’s dreaming a haunting dream. His raven wakes him just before dawn, and he prepares for the coming of the Wildlings at daybreak. Before going out to meet Tormund, he has a last minute meeting with the men who will be accompanying him, and they all give their assurances.

Jon rides out with 8 chosen guards, gives the command to open the gates, and spends the better part of the day standing to the side with Tormund as they watch the exodus proceed. Tormund gives Jon “insider info” on the people as they pass, while Bowen conducts a census and collects their valuables for payment. First through the Wall are the 100 agreed-upon hostages, followed by the Wildling warriors, to ensure that Jon won’t decide to shut the gates prematurely. Next come the people from the Frozen shore, and after them the bulk of wildlings. Finally, Tormund’s “rangers” burn any dead in the camp, and conclude the procession. Jon is the last man through the Wall.

Jon and Bowen have a curt exchange when Bowen presents the full count. On his way back to his chambers, Jon notes that the Watch now seems full of life and activity, but any optimism is mitigated when Clydas brings a letter from Cotter Pyke, informing him of the troubles at Hardhome.

Observations

• As Jon dresses in the darkness, the raven says, “Corn,” “King,” then “Snow, Jon Snow, Jon Snow.” This seems to suggest the connection of Jon with the “Corn King,” a theory Lummel and Apple Martini have both proposed before. Jon notes that this is the first time the raven has ever said his full name.
  
• Jon’s raven wakes him at the “hour of the wolf,” which is the darkest part of night, just before Dawn.
  
• Jon assures Tormund that he will take his son, Dryn, as his own page.
  
• Tormund gives a special warning about the people from the Frozen Shore: “A savage lot.” Half wear walrus tusks, the others antlers, and the two groups do not get along, Jon notes.
  
• We learn the composition of Valyrian steel: “forged in the fires of old Valyria, forged in dragonflame and set with spells.”
  
• When Jon watches a snowflake “dancing” in the air, he thinks: “Dance with me, Jon Snow. You’ll dance with me anon,” which recalls what Alys said to him at her wedding.
  
• When Jon meets Borroq, he immediately and inexplicably (to himself) identifies him as a skinchanger.
  

Analysis

They are all gone. They have abandoned me.

Jon dreams that he is standing alone at the top of the Wall during a wildling attack. He calls to “feed them flame,” but realizes that he has no one to command. Instead, the NW “Scarecrows” (as seen in aSoS when Mance attacked), burn around him. An eagle cries “Snow,” and his foes “scuttle up the ice like spiders.” He is “armored in black ice, but his blade burned red in his hand.” With this sword, he kills the “enemy” and fallen friends alike- Ygritte, Donal, Dick Follard, Qhorin, and lastly Robb, after screaming “I am the Lord of Winterfell.” He’s woken when his raven calls, “Snow.”

I think there are sundry facets of importance in this dream. The “black ice armor” recalls Rhaeger’s famed suit in color and the appearance of obsidian (“frozen fire”), which slays Others. The red blade is curious—it’s not on fire, but red-hot in his hand. He recognizes the burning blade as Longclaw, as it takes off Robb’s head.

The dream seems to be a conflation of his deepest fears, desires and regrets, and the snippets of the Last Hero/ AA myths. Jon’s dreaming of himself in what appears to be the description of AA, but is killing wildlings and people he loves, and verbally identifies himself prosaically as the Lord of Winterfell rather than a more magical title.

He feels alienated in his position; upon waking, his thoughts turn to the wildlings he’s about to let through the Wall, and again mourns the loss of the good men he’s lost, thinking, “It should have been someone else” treating with Tormund. He is resolved, however: “He would play the game to its conclusion.”

We are dancing on rotten ice here.

The men at Jon’s meeting have acquiesced and seem as though they are on board. In fact, Bowen “assures” him as per Jon’s interpretation. Jon reiterates that the NW is to keep the peace, and that there will be dire consequences for any man who fails to do so. At this point it appears that the men are unified behind Jon; after the Wildlings are through, Bowen is noticeably colder and disapproving. Perhaps Bowen had hoped the Wildlings would give the Watch an excuse to seal them out?

A bad sign

Dolores Edd offers his thoughts on the day before the exodus begins. The day begins clear and bright, “warm and sunny.” Edd sees this as a bad sign: “The Wall will weep. And winter almost on us. It’s unnatural. A bad sign.” When Jon asks whether snow would be a better omen, Edd says it would be a “worse sign.” Is Edd actually speaking of weather (as Jon believes he is), or is this Edd’s mild way of saying that the Watch itself is crying over this? Halfway through the day, the sky does in fact turn to a “snow sky,” which according to Edd means that the day is doubly damned.

Trappings

Jon considers the message he wants to convey to the Wildlings in riding out to let them through. He rides a grey courser that he would not normally use, “but on this morning all that mattered was that he looked impressive, and for that the stallion was a perfect choice.” Additionally, he selects an 8 person guard of men in their prime (explicitly no “green boys or greybeards”), and 12 stewards for accounting. Satin leads the procession.

When he reaches Tormund, the Wildling balks good-naturedly, realizing Jon’s message and japing about trust. They proceed to have a kind of “pissing contest.” He tells Jon to stand with him, so that the Wildlings can “learn that the NW is naught t’be feared,” which is precisely the message that Jon took pains not to send: “That is a lesson I would sooner they never learned.” He calls Ghost over to his side, and this settles the issue about whether Jon ought to be feared.

Trust: These are winter’s people

As the hostages start coming through, Jon observes that “Not a single hostage balked or tried to slink away when his turn came to enter that gloomy tunnel.” It would seem that Jon’s predictions are accurate- that the Wildlings understand that there is a common enemy they hate more than “Crows”—and will ensure that they truly want this and will keep faith.

Tormund provides valuable background information on the people coming through, giving suggestions about ways to maintain peace by separating those with prior feuds and the like. Like Jon, Tormund seems to know his people, and Jon is keen to get Tormund’s instruction here, as they are his people now too. When two young girls try to come through as hostages, Jon realizes their gender, and explains to Tormund why they need to be replaced by boys instead. Tormund is legitimately horrified at the tale of Danny Flint: “Nasty birds, you crows.”

Tormund sends the warriors through, and it’s Jon’s turn to balk; he’d hoped the women and children would be next. Tormund did this to ensure the gate would not be closed: “Now don’t you go thinking me and mine don’t trust you. We trust you just as much as you trust us.” Jon smiles at this, and it seems good-natured on both sides; I believe that Tormund and Jon genuinely like and trust each other, but both acknowledge that they must make concessions to their respective peoples in terms of “trappings” and appearances. The fact that they have to put on a power show is something of a source of amusement for them.

Some men came through with dead eyes, while others smiled and gave oaths. None knelt. Jon thinks that some of those smiles disquiet him more than any glare would. As it grows later, the Wildlings start rushing. Jon realizes that it’s out of fear, and that “They want to put the Wall between them before the night descends.”

Their father seems a [southron] fool

Upon meeting Gerrick Kingsblood, Jon thinks that Selyse would like these people, as they appeal to their relation to Raymun Redbeard, who was the King Beyond the Wall who successfully invaded South. Amusingly, Jon thinks of how ridiculous Gerrick sounds in referencing his lineage: “Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk.”

Horn of Joramun

Tormund tells Jon that Mance had never found the Horn of Joramun. He tells Jon that blowing Joramun’s horn would reduce the Wall to rubble, but that the horn they found came from a giant’s grave and was a thousand years old. Jon recalls the myth of the horn: “And Joramun blew the Horn of Winter and woke giants from the earth.” It seems like there might be 2 horns, imo: A horn that brings down the Wall, and a horn that wakes giants from the earth, as I think these are two separate things. Jon wonders where the real horn is, feeling uneasy about being tricked, as well as the possibility that it could be blown.

Tormund, tell me of our foe

Jon wants to learn about the enemy. Tormund won’t speak of it on the North side of the Wall: “They’re never far you know. They won’t come out by day…but don’t think that means they went away. Shadows never go away.” He’s more fearful about the cold mist that accompanies them—“can your sword cut cold?” This leads Jon to consider the information about the Last Hero Sam found in the annals, and still believes that dragonsteel=Valyrian. He’s not certain though, believing the true test will come in battle.

Jon’s Snow Castle?

Jon makes sure that he is the last through the Wall. After a quick exchange with Bowen, he surveys the scene at Castle Black. When he set forth in that morning, he noted how dark and dead everything seemed- the ashes of the nightfire, dark windows, stillness. Now, at night, it is full of life and light:

For as long as he had known it, Castle Black had been a place of silence and shadows, where a meager company of men in black moved like ghosts amongst the ruins of a fortress that had once housed ten times their numbers. Lights now shone through windows where Jon Snow had never seen lights shine before.”

Outside of the Flint barracks, he saw a dozen men engaged in a snowball fight: “Playing, grown men playing like children, throwing snowballs the way Bran and Arya once did, and Robb and me before them.” I find Jon’s survey of the Castle and memory of the snowball fights to parallel Sansa’s snow castle chapter in aSoS; both “recreate” or “reforge” something that’s been destroyed, which fills them with new hope and eases their identities. Jon is absent in Sansa’s memory of their childhood playfights, and Sansa is notably omitted from Jon’s. Yet, it would seen that given the descriptions of both memories, that they would have been aware of each other’s participation of these games. Tze recently wrote some brilliant analyses of the relationship between Jon and Sansa in the PtP thread for further reading: http://asoiaf.wester...40#entry3550409

Though Castle Black seems to be full of new life, Jon notes that Donal’s armory was still dark and silent (the death of whom weighed heavily on him at the beginning of this chapter), and sees that his own quarters were “darker still.” The darkness of his quarters likely foreshadows the bad news Clydas delivers from Cotter Pyke about the hardships of the Hardome rescue mission. Pyke notes dead things in the water twice, and that 5 of the 11 ships that set out are incapacitated. (He of course signs with his “angry mark” lol). He thinks, “Night falls and now my war begins.”

[Fire Eater]

It is interesting to note in Jon's dream that he is wearing black armor and fighting with a red sword, could this dream be hinting at his heritage?

We see Jon has forced the wildlings to send children as hostages to ensure the cooperation of their sires. Dany has children from each pyramid taken from Meereen, but she doesn't have the stomach to go through with it when the Sons of the Harpy continue their attacks. Her situation is akin to Jaime Lannister coming across Ryman Frey who has Edmure on the gallows threatening to hang him everyday. Like Dany's, Ryman's ploy fails miserably as Jaime tells him:

"Only a fool makes threats he's not prepared to carry out."

Jon knows that there's no point to having hostages if you don't have the stomach to do what has to be done when their sires don't cooperate.

Other than an ivory penis (I think Selyse just found a new friend), one of the valuables surrendered is "a broken sword with three sapphires in the hilt." Could that be the broken sword of Waymar Royce?:

Jewels glittered in its hilt

[Winterfellian]

Great post BB!

- For me one of the most defining moments is the horn blast to announce the wildings approaching. I actually admired Jon's attention to detail in this one particular aspect. For centuries is always been one blast for rangers, two for wildings. Yet we see that it has now changed. Jon changed it. The horn blasting is no longer a signal separating men into conflicting groups but unifying and recognizing them as equals, as men. This one horn blast is heralding a new era not only for the Watch, but for the rest of Westeros and the wildings and reminds everyone at Castle Black that there are now only men against the Others and the other dark things outside the wall. It is such a small gesture but deeply meaningful. Compare this with Melissandre's empty and exuberant ceremony when the first wildings entered the realm at the beginning of the book. Without intending to Jon's single horn blast is far more unifying and transcendent than all of Mel's fire tricks and speeches (as some of the wildings pledging freely to him proves). It sets a nice contrast against floppy ears as well. Jon might have taken a big horse and a large guard as his floppy ears, but the horn blast is the most important one.

In comparison to Dany, I find this moment very contrasting. Dany's wedding could have been her "horn blast" back when she married Hizzie. Had she not let herself be fooled, trapped and finally used by the slavers and their ilk her wedding could have been the "one horn blast" that mark the new start for Mereen-the integration and equality for all her people alike. However the whole tone of her ceremony marked her as one choosing to side or become one of the upper class even if that wasn't her intention. While Dany's wedding was heralded by her arrival wearing a Tokkar and sitting in a sedan chair supported on the shoulders of former slaves Jon greeted the free folk with a single horn blast and a former wilding and enemy (Leathers) by his side. Dany's floppy ears divided, Jon's are unifying.

[Julian Rayne]

- For me one of the most defining moments is the horn blast to announce the wildings approaching. I actually admired Jon's attention to detail in this one particular aspect. For centuries is always been one blast for rangers, two for wildings. Yet we see that it has now changed. Jon changed it. The horn blasting is no longer a signal separating men into conflicting groups but unifying and recognizing them as equals, as men. This one horn blast is heralding a new era not only for the Watch, but for the rest of Westeros and the wildings and reminds everyone at Castle Black that there are now only men against the Others and the other dark things outside the wall. It is such a small gesture but deeply meaningful.

Good observation. This raises a question: If, as some of us contend, the original purpose of the Watch never was to defend against Wildlings, where did the tradition of using three blasts for Others come from. I always assumed that the Wildlings and the Others were never (until fairly recently) enemies of the Watch simultaneously. The fact that three blasts were used as a signal is evidence that I wasn't quite right.

[Lyanna Stark]

In response to the second point made above by Winterfellian,

In comparison to Dany, I find this moment very contrasting. Dany's wedding could have been her "horn blast" back when she married Hizzie. Had she not let herself be fooled, trapped and finally used by the slavers and their ilk her wedding could have been the "one horn blast" that mark the new start for Mereen-the integration and equality for all her people alike. However the whole tone of her ceremony marked her as one choosing to side or become one of the upper class even if that wasn't her intention. While Dany's wedding was heralded by her arrival wearing a Tokkar and sitting in a sedan chair supported on the shoulders of former slaves Jon greeted the free folk with a single horn blast and a former wilding and enemy (Leathers) by his side. Dany's floppy ears divided, Jon's are unifying.

I'm not sure I can see how the wedding to Hizdahr could ever have been the equivalent of Jon's including "horn blast" here. Jon is not doing violence upon himself with letting the Wildlings join "the men" on the right side of the Wall, nor is he doing violence on his ideals.

Dany, however, very much is doing violence upon herself. The path of the Wildlings in a way empowers Jon since it turns him into a part king of the wildlings, like Mance used to be. Dany's wedding is the inverse: she is now forced to bow her head to the slavers' will and to share her rule with Hizdahr.

Dany does not have the power, nor energy to try and create a positive atmosphere around her wedding: in many ways, she is not even in control over it. She's fighting about bits and pieces, like no woman cake, no washing of Jizrag's feet, but then she has to relinquish riding her silver and is forced into a halfarsed compromise with the palanquin. In contrast, Jon is in control. He has control over his entourage, he has control over his floppy ears (the grey courser, which image he should project) and overall, the Wildlings travelling through the wall feel like an overall positive thing to Jon. He has accomplished something good.

To contrast again, Dany doubts that she has accomplished something good (will the marriage give her true peace?), she is not in control and she is miserable.

It would be great if Dany could create a "horn blast" scenario, but I don't think she ever stood the chance due to the nature of the marriage with Jizrag.

[Winterfellian]

Dany, however, very much is doing violence upon herself. The path of the Wildlings in a way empowers Jon since it turns him into a part king of the wildlings, like Mance used to be. Dany's wedding is the inverse: she is now forced to bow her head to the slavers' will and to share her rule with Hizdahr.

Dany does not have the power, nor energy to try and create a positive atmosphere around her wedding: in many ways, she is not even in control over it. She's fighting about bits and pieces, like no woman cake, no washing of Jizrag's feet, but then she has to relinquish riding her silver and is forced into a halfarsed compromise with the palanquin. In contrast, Jon is in control. He has control over his entourage, he has control over his flooy ears (the grey courser, which image he should project) and overall, the Wildlings travelling through the wall feel like an overall positive thing to Jon. He has accomplished something good.

Mostly my quarrel and the point I was trying to refer to in my post is about the bold part in your post. Despite the fact that she refused to washed Hizdahr's feet there is such a quality of submission in the overall tone of the ceremony down to the very choice of her garment. You said in your post that Jon is in control, but why is this? Because he never relinquished it or let others take it from him, which is something Dany has done, albeit unwittingly.

Jon's horn blast and choice of Leathers for companion will not mark the end of the wilding problems but as a good and meaningful application of floppy ears I find it very praiseworthy because it sets the tone for the unification of 2 cultures. The one horn blast stopped classifying them into wildings and men of the watch to herald the arrival of men as a whole. Leathers by his side proves that there is place in the wall for everyone and that old quarrels must be put aside. Dany's wedding sets the tone for her bowing her head to the Mereens, as you said it yourself. Granted, there was probably no escaping the wedding but I feel that the tone of the ceremony might have been different had she arrived in Dothraki (or even Westerosi fashion), mounted in her silver and with bells in her hair instead of a being paraded in a tokkhar (a garment strongly associated with slavers, that she even wanted to banned!) and supported on the shoulders of her own freed men. What kind of message her particular choice of attire and arrival sends to the ones she herself freed? What kind of message would she have send to both freed man and upper classes had she arrived in her silver and attired in Dothraki garment?

Am actually surprised that she didn't realize this because of the 2 of them Dany has always been the most willing to recognize and use the trappings for power for her own benefit. I guess it goes back to 2 things: meaningful trappings of power (like the horn blast and Leathers) vs empty ones such as Mel's fires and dressing in other culture's attire; also, knowing the culture or group you are trying to "trap".

Am not sure the fact that she lacked the energy is enough excuse for me. Is not like Jon is on paradise island either. I think it has more to do with Dany settling and resigning to her faith than with lack of energy. While they both experience feelings of depression and isolation I think Dany succumbs to this feelings more easily than Jon who continues to function despite being in a similar position of despair and feeling sometimes as helpless as Dany feels in Mereen. By the end of Dany's chapters we feel more and more that she has given up and Mereen and is satisfied to let others take charge. Yet we are in Jon's second to last chapter and what does he thinks to himself after being delivered yet another challenge- Night falls and now my war begins.

[Blisscraft]

The Dream - Much has been made of this dream, particularly in light of how it may reveal clues as to Jon's identity and foreshadows future events in the series. But mostly, Jon's dream is the product of his unconsciousness. It reveals his anxiety and dispair and guilt. For example, he doesn't dream about the Others, "howling from woods, advancing to the moan of warhorns and the roll of drums." He dreams about wildings. This is significant because Jon consciously knows that the true enemy is the Others. The dream shows his deep anxiety about wildings coming. Even the "roll" of the drum beats spells out "DOOM!" Also, this drum beat is "a thousand heats with a single beat." This conjures up the wilding song about "Two heart beat as one," and Jon's "marriage" to Ygritte.

The next piece of information in the dream is that the wildings coming at Jon atop the Wall, are armed with spears, bows, axes and ride on chariots made of bones drawn by dogs, "as big as ponies." However, the wildings don't have swords. Nor are they mounted upon horses. Jon is the only one with a sword. Also, the chariots made of bones and drawn by dogs summons, "The Lord of Bones" and Varamyr. Both connected to Jon's time with Ygritte and his time with Mance.

The giants are giant even for giants, "forty feet tall with mauls the size of oak trees." Something about this piece of Jon's dream suggests an almost childlike perception of monsters, bigger and badder and fiercer than ever possible.

The solitary hero is the next image within the dream. Jon is alone, abandoned armored in black ice. Ice is water that has been tranformed by the cold. Its nature has been transformed from fluid to solid; from flexible to rigid. Water's potential has changed, as has Jon's. He has gone from brother to LC. But that seems to have cost him some plasticity. "Flame," could restore him. Jon seems to understand this. None is present to redeem him. But, he is atop the Wall. This is significant as to his perception as to what is below him, the wildings, and where he is in relation to his "enemies." He is above them in a strategic position of power and strength, but that is no comfort. He is in despair, abandoned.

In the next portion of Jon's dream, the wildings are converted into the Others. Not only the Others, but the Others as in Old Nan's tales. They, "scuttled up the ice like spiders," and they are "dead men" that Jon slashes with his "red" sword sends them down to "die again." The "scarecrow" brothers provide some protection from Jon's enemies, but not enough. He is alone in his fight. He must kill an old man (Aemon?), a boy ("Kill the boy!), a giant (like Jack in the beanstalk), a gaunt man with filed teeth (the bane of Arya and Brienne?) and finally, a girl with red hair. He thinks too late it's Ygritte. This list of the dead seems to be a procession of regret. Ultimately, it includes people Jon knows that he is slaughtering: Donal, Deaf Dick, Qhorin, and finally Rob. Jon feels guilt and responsibility for their deaths, although the only person he in fact killed was Qhorin.

"I am the Lord of Winterfell." This is a strongly repressed desire. Jon wants Winterfell, has been offered it and refused it in fact, but underneath his outward denial is desire. Jon's desire is so strong that he will slay his "brother," Rob, with snow melting in his hair, to get it. Snow melting in his brother's hair is an image of transience, impermanence, tranformation from one state of matter to another. The "gnarled hand" that seizes Jon's shoulder may be a "hand of justice," requiring Jon to atone for his hidden desires.

More later. . .

[Lyanna Stark]

Mostly my quarrel and the point I was trying to refer to in my post is about the bold part in your post. Despite the fact that she refused to washed Hizdahr's feet there is such a quality of submission in the overall tone of the ceremony down to the very choice of her garment. You said in your post that Jon is in control, but why is this? Because he never relinquished it or let others take it from him, which is something Dany has done, albeit unwittingly.

I'm not convinced she has done it completely unwittlingly. As has been discussed earlier in this thread: Dany wants to be loved. She wants everyone to love and like her, the Mother. This is why she tries so hard to please everyone, amd while she rejects the traditions on Meereen on a couple of points, in the end they appear rather futile and on the whole she goes along with the wedding because it will bring peace. Dany submits here for the greater good. Which is also why she does not have any control, and has a hard time turning it into something positive.

Jon on the other hand has full control because he didn't submit. He haggled and worked out a deal. Dany hasn't haggled, she has submitted, both her ideals and herself. This is also why Jon has a positive image of the wildlings coming through (he sees the fires in the windows, the snowball fight etc). It's life and its many facets.

While Dany is alone after her wedding with Hizdahr passed out and she is crying. Missandei eventually comes along, but while Jon's choice is followed by positive imagery, or people, of life, Dany's is of loneliness and misery. Jon is facing problems, Dany is facing despair. It also nicely sets up her "enough" gesture at the fighting pit where she removes her Tokar and literally tries to remove the role she has had to submit to. Jon is defending his choice with the wildlings, while Dany is trying to extradite herself from her choice, and to deny it, and throw it away like the Tokar.

Am actually surprised that she didn't realize this because of the 2 of them Dany has always been the most willing to recognize and use the trappings for power for her own benefit. I guess it goes back to 2 things: meaningful trappings of power (like the horn blast and Leathers) vs empty ones such as Mel's fires and dressing in other culture's attire; also, knowing the culture or group you are trying to "trap".

I'm not at all convinced Dany's wedding can be seen as this. At this point, Dany tries, but has largely given up. She wants to ride her silver, but can't for the Tokar. It's not until the fighting pit we see her completely remove the Tokar and with that the complete "floppy ears" costume. Dany seems well aware of it, but at the point of the wedding, she is in "submit for the greater good" mode.

Am not sure the fact that she lacked the energy is enough excuse for me. Is not like Jon is on paradise island either. I think it has more to do with Dany settling and resigning to her faith than with lack of energy. While they both experience feelings of depression and isolation I think Dany succumbs to this feelings more easily than Jon who continues to function despite being in a similar position of despair and feeling sometimes as helpless as Dany feels in Mereen. By the end of Dany's chapters we feel more and more that she has given up and Mereen and is satisfied to let others take charge. Yet we are in Jon's second to last chapter and what does he thinks to himself after being delivered yet another challenge- Night falls and now my war begins.

I'm not sure I share this view either. I certainly agree that Jon is definitely not on paradise island and that he has reasons to feel pressured and depressed, but he also doesn't end up having to sell himself and his ideals as Dany has to, so I am not sure I think Dany is satisfied with letting others take charge. She's certainly resigned, at least partly, and she tries to accept her fate ("A Queen belongs to her people"), but the fact is that Dany cannot accept this fate, which is such a betrayal of who she is. In that case I think there is an important distinction to be made between Jon and Dany: Jon is in a difficult position and suffers from crushing loneliness and so is Dany, but so far, Jon is still in control and he has not had to sell himself or his ideals for the greater good: the greater good aligns with his ideals. He thinks the wildlings are all men, and he is able to act to save them, while Dany is forced into submitting to the old slavers and slavery is creeping back towards Meereen.

[Tagganaro]

Admittedly this is rather crackpottish, but I like the idea/observation about Mormont's Raven saying Jon's full name here for the first time. The crackpot theorizing here is that the bird is now saying his full name because Jon has accomplished his mission and The Old Gods agenda of getting humans together again. Why do I say this? Well, I haven't put it all together, but when you look at when Jon originally decides to let the wildlings through (saying the Oath to the weir wood tree), there's certainly an element of divine inspiration with the Old Gods playing the role of muse. Jon says the words, recognizes or wants to recognize his other brothers saying the words growing stronger, then suddenly it just dawns on him that he needs to protect wildlings as well. Then to drive home the point, Ghost (the instrument of the Old Gods and the likeness of a weir wood tree) brushes up against Jon at exactly the right moment to finally force the breakthrough- Once Jon "smells" how human the wildlings are, his mind is all but made up.

I think Jon's/Mormont's raven is fully supportive of this (or should I just say Bloodraven lol), and it's just like at this point "Job well-done Jon Snow, you get your full name now as reward". This is a rather large breakthrough here, a moment that attempts to do 1000s of years of enmity and war between wildlings and the Watch. Unlike earlier, the NW is essentially allowing the wildlings through on equal footing- They are not really POW's like they were for Stannis, and that was Stannis's agenda anyway and not the NW's. Now, this is a major, major breakthrough.

Again, admittedly very crackpot, but I really like the idea that Jon is on some kind of divinely inspired mission here and has just completed a major portion of it, and Bloodraven is showing his support.