Dany being set up to be the main villain of the story?

[revenant6]

Whoa. This one is a good one!

Couple of points:

1a) RE: the OP, I think it is possible that Dany could end up being a villain - but "villain" is subjective. She may show up with the Ironborn, whom nobody seems to like a whole bunch. She may use the Ironborn ships to transport Dothraki, who by all appearances don't seem to have much culture except taking, raping, pillaging and war. Come to think of it, they are kinda the Ironborn of the land...

1b) Just based on my own subjective ideas regarding the show, she kinda appears to have some "fire and blood" moments. She wants to take what is hers (somewhat justifiably). Her dad and Viserys had them, too. If she follows up on them, I'm just not sure that dragons incinerating everything, Dothraki and Ironborn raping and pillaging is going to win a lot of admiration. I also worry that if Aegon claims the throne she wants, she will fry him, too. This probably is not going to make a lot of friends. I think it should also be taken into account that the people (smallfolk) are going to be sick of war and getting ready to starve thru winter. She could be welcomed as a savior if she helps them or feared as a conqueror depending on her actions.

c) All that being said, perhaps she shows up with at least one dragon (probably Drogon) and fights off the Others. Then she could be a huge hero and savior. She has lots of options and I think is written in a way should could choose several paths. Is she TStMtW? Maybe! Is she AA reborn? Maybe! Is she a crazy girl with a dragon and a bone to pick? Maybe! I neither love nor hate her story - I just enjoy reading about it. My bottom line about Dany as a villain will be this: If she wins, she can write her own history and be a hero. If she loses and somebody else writes her history, she's the villain.

2) Stannis as the Night's King - I really, really could see this occurring. In an effort to save the realm, perhaps he makes a deal with the Others. Maybe sleeps with one to tie the alliance. He did pull the shadowbaby thing. I just could really see him making some moves judged to be "evil" in an attempt to "save" the realm and win the throne. I see this much like I see Dany - both believe they should rule - just what ends will justify their means? I don't necessarily think this will happen, but a "Night's King Stannis" versus a crazy "Fire and Blood" Dany could be a fun showdown.

3) Could the Stallion that Mounts the World actually be Winter? Somebody mentioned the ghost grass, which I had previously missed. Just a thought...

4) Yes - this is all total speculation

[Nymphetamine]

Let her come then, come in all her power and glory. For in the final hour, all must serve the One True King.

Lich King reference ftw

[pat]

Yes, all comes down to her DNA (see the infamous Targaryen Madness)

You mean Alexander the Great?

I see her more like a combination of Attila the Hun & Genghis Khan.

He is only Alexander the Great in certain countries. to other areas a conquerer and a hated figure in history. So i used a politically correct term.

[pat]

The Golden Company is already employed. Who is Massey going to hire?

The Second sons rape, murder and pillage

The Stormcrows rape, pillage and murder

The company of the cat rape, pillage and murder

The Windblown rape, pillage and murder

etc.

Paid Feudal Amies were brutal i agree. Martin has Drawn clear lines between Westerosi and the sellswords already. The Golden company will bring terror to the realm. No dothraki we have met is as cruel as a paid Knight in history. It is not possible for paid fuedal armies to be presented as a bunch of Ser Grandfathers. It is fairly clear, as you point out from the text. Sellswords = horrors beyond count.

[pat]

Someone on the Golden Company end of the discipline spectrum. Read Martin's quote, not all sellswords are as undisciplined as Daenerys' lot.

Discipline does not equal morality. The Golden Company will not act like 10 000 Neds. I expect Devastations in the Stormlands as bad as The Riverland campaigns. Sellswords are bad news is all over the books.

[danm_999]

Discipline does not equal morality. The Golden Company will not act like 10 000 Neds. I expect Devastations in the Stormlands as bad as The Riverland campaigns. Sellswords are bad news is all over the books.

Discipline = behaviour in accord with rules of conduct; behaviour and order maintained by training and control.

Stannis does not allow his men to rape, kill needlessly or eat each other. If he hires sellswords with good discipline, as is his intent, pretending they'll behave like the Bloody Mummers or the Slaver's Bay sellswords is completely wrong.

[Julian Rayne]

Discipline does not equal morality. The Golden Company will not act like 10 000 Neds. I expect Devastations in the Stormlands as bad as The Riverland campaigns. Sellswords are bad news is all over the books.

Fallacy of the excluded middle. There's a huge gulf between Ned and "rape, murder and pillage"

[998]

The argument I've read as to why the Others can't be the villains is because GRRM doesn't do that type of thing. I think it being Dany is just substituting one "dark lord" for another.

But if Dany was the villain she'd be more sympathetic, because we've been following her for 5 books.

[pat]

Discipline = behaviour in accord with rules of conduct; behaviour and order maintained by training and control.

Stannis does not allow his men to rape, kill needlessly or eat each other. If he hires sellswords with good discipline, as is his intent, pretending they'll behave like the Bloody Mummers or the Slaver's Bay sellswords is completely wrong.

Why does Ser Barristan hate the Golden Company. it cant be because of how well they set up their camps. And how well they place Latrines and brush horses down.

Look at what quentyn did with the windblown to the Astapor unsullied. And the Tattered prince is an educated Noblemen with Iron discipline in his squad. Killing like that is not discipline.

The Mummers are disliked because they are dangerous to their employers. Horrors focused in the right direction would be OK.

Stannis can hire Companies and random sellswords but he wont be disciplining other people soldiers with impunity. he can do whatever he wants if he hires one at a time.

[pat]

Fallacy of the excluded middle. There's a huge gulf between Ned and "rape, murder and pillage"

I take Ser Barristan at his word concerning the Golden Company he fought them in the Stepstones. What would happen in the 50 years between to improve them. Who would show them a gentler way . Unless Sansa sings to them all.

[danm_999]

Why does Ser Barristan hate the Golden Company. it cant be because of how well they set up their camps. And how well they place Latrines and brush horses down.

Because they're pro-Blackfyre and Barristan is pro-Targaryen. He hates them for political reasons, and because they fought them during the War of Ninepenny Kings.

Look at what quentyn did with the windblown to the Astapor unsullied. And the Tattered prince is an educated Noblemen with Iron discipline in his squad. Killing like that is not discipline.

The Mummers are disliked because they are dangerous to their employers. Horrors focused in the right direction would be OK.

Read George's quote. The Bloody Mummers and even the Meereenese sellsword companies are at the other end of the spectrum in discipline to the Golden Company. It's specifically because they lack discipline they roam around like thugs. Stannis told Massey what company he wanted, and it's the antithesis of those thugs.

Stannis can hire Companies and random sellswords but he wont be disciplining other people soldiers with impunity.

If need be he will. This is Stannis after all.

[franko99]

There's also this Dothraki prophecy (from Daenerys 3, AGOT)

'ghost grass...pale as milkglass' sounds a lot like a description of snow for someone who has never seen it before. And the Dothraki claim it will cover the whole world one day. Yet they also claim that there will be a stallion who mounts the world. Those two prophecies kind of clash imo

They can complement each other, Dany can be the SWMTW, conquer westeros, and then leave everything ready for the Other to come and conquer everything, If Dany takes the Iron Throne, there will be and incompetent leader ruling over a wasteland, and most knigths and soldiers dead, she will do half the job for the Others

[danm_999]

I take Ser Barristan at his word concerning the Golden Company he fought them in the Stepstones.

Do you routinely look for the truth about someone from a sworn enemy of theirs?

Who would show them a gentler way . Unless Sansa sings to them all.

Discipline isn't about being gentle, it's about doing what you're told. A sellsword company with good discipline will do what they're told, whether it be good or bad. If Stannis hires a disciplined sellsword company, you can bet he'll punish anybody who screws around.

[pat]

Do you routinely look for the truth about someone from a sworn enemy of theirs?

Discipline isn't about being gentle, it's about doing what you're told. A sellsword company with good discipline will do what they're told, whether it be good or bad. If Stannis hires a disciplined sellsword company, you can bet he'll punish anybody who screws around.

Barristan fought 4 great lords at the Trident and doesnt say anything bad about Ned and friends. I trust his word till proven wrong concerning the GC. Unless Blackfish has a different opinion. There are too many bad things done by sellswords for an army of paladins to emerge at this point.

Only Tywin tolerated the mountains men, he died so both Jaime and Kevan discarded them like the trash they were.

Stannis could issue orders not to rape how would he know what 20 000 men are doing. and would probably lead to rape + death like that clown said to Asha.

And pillaging is just some thing soldiers seem do in asoiaf same as breathing.Robb pillaged the westerlands.

adding this Jon Con wants to be the new tywin. Poor stormlanders...

[danm_999]

Barristan fought 4 great lords at the Trident and doesnt say anything bad about Ned and friends.

Because they pardoned him and made him Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

I trust his word till proven wrong concerning the GC. Unless Blackfish has a different opinion. There are too many bad things done by sellswords for an army of paladins to emerge at this point.

I'll say this again.

I'm not claiming they're paladins, I'm claiming they're disciplined. It's a very simple point; disciplined companies do what you tell them to. If you tell them to go nuts, they'll go nuts. If you tell them not to rape and pillage, they won't.

Stannis is at a place right now where he wants to win support and hearts and minds, so he's not going to have a burn and sack strategy.

Only Tywin tolerated the mountains men, he died so both Jaime and Kevan discarded them like the trash they were.

Stannis could issue orders not to rape how would he know what 20 000 men are doing. and would probably lead to rape + death like that clown said to Asha.

Re-read ADWD. The rapists in Stannis' army get gelded. The cannibals get executed. Clayton Suggs makes threats to Asha, but never acts on them, because he knows what will happen if he does.

Stannis is very experienced at maintaining a high level of discipline amongst his troops. Witness his holding Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion against the power of Highgarden for a year. Any guardsmen or soldier could have opened a gate for Mace Tyrell and lost Stannis the siege. They were literally dying and starving, and Stannis enforced enough discipline to stop his men from turning their cloaks.

Or witness how he's able to get his men and the Northern clans to march through a blizzard.

And pillaging is just some thing soldiers seem do in asoiaf same as breathing.Robb pillaged the westerlands.

Robb intended to pillage the Westerlands. You see why the situation isn't analogous? Stannis is trying to appear as the realm's saviour; he's beating the Ironborn and giving back what they've seized to their rightful owners. He's going to retake Winterfell in the name of the Starks. Pillaging is currently not in his strategy.

[Toos]

Just small question about Dany's dream. How she knows that the river in her dream is Trident?

[danm_999]

Just small question about Dany's dream. How she knows that the river in her dream is Trident?

Given she's never seen the Trident, Rhaegar, the Usurper, or at that point, a dragon, it's a fair question.

[Jolene Brown]

Given she's never seen the Trident, Rhaegar, the Usurper, or at that point, a dragon, it's a fair question.

She's probably heard of the Trident - she sees a river in her dream and "knows" it's the Trident - it doesn't necessarily have to look like the real Trident, it just represents the Trident in the logic of the dream.

[pat]

disciplined in a military sense can not be stretched to some sort of morality. self discipline maybe but thats just different Military discipline is just what Jon Con observed in his POV orderly camp soldiers doing duties. Then feild discipline holding a line in a sheild wall etc. Being a horrible murpillage machine isnt a part of it at all. Gregors Van at the Green Fork was Disciplined and set up quicly. more discipline. His rampage in the riverlands was ordered but not the horrors at Harrenhal. From a person previously shown to run a tight military ship.

Who is gonna tell the GC to go do your worst.......oh wait Jon Con failed Tywin Lannister wannabe.

Tywin 2.0 is gonna terrorize im certain.

People are always asked to provide text for things i dont have a digital copy of the books.

But the crimes committed by sellswords are legion. Were Bronns sellswords moral.

Only Lothar Brune breaks the mold but we dont know much about him and he got stabby fast with Marillion.

George never said the GC was bad ok sure. But why would he if he wants any one to care.

By arriane chapter 6 or so we will have a good picture of them. And it turns out they captured the castle of her friend. a seemingly throway character Spotted Sylvia lady of Greenstone.

[Antonius Pius]

Because they pardoned him and made him Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.

Also, Barristan thinks Robert was a good knight. And Ned is obviously an honourable man, a bit like Barristan himself.

Stannis is very experienced at maintaining a high level of discipline amongst his troops. Witness his holding Storm's End during Robert's Rebellion against the power of Highgarden for a year. Any guardsmen or soldier could have opened a gate for Mace Tyrell and lost Stannis the siege. They were literally dying and starving, and Stannis enforced enough discipline to stop his men from turning their cloaks.

Some did attempt to, but didn't he catapult them out? Or lock them up? Or eat them if Davos hadn't come?

Just small question about Dany's dream. How she knows that the river in her dream is Trident?

It's the Red Fork isn't it? Because of the colour of the water perhaps? Or because of Rhaegar?

Edited: I think it's her image of what the Trident looks like, she doesn't describe it, she just knows it is the Trident. Also, in the dream she is Rhaegar, which we all know she isn't. It's an image of what's to come and that bringing war to Westeros is a double edged sword.