Penny ... ?

[King Zee]

In others word it can be easily cut. I for one am not interested in half a season of Tyrion moping.

lol where you also not interest in a season of Theon torture, or Dany screaming " I am the blood of the dragon"

[Ladywhiskers]

I really hope Penny is not cut. She is not unimportant. She is the thing that brings back his humanity in ADWD. Tyrion needs to be exposed to a woman who is not a prostitute, not a princess, and not indifferent to him.

In the books, and on the show, Tyrion has never had to deal with being the object of someone else's unrequited love. It never happens without Penny, and without it happening, Tyrion misses out on some important character growth. Tyrion ends up taking care of Penny in a way he never took care of Sansa, or Pod, or his nieces and nephews. I think it's very necessary to see Tyrion show that true quality of a gentleman: being kind to someone for whom he has no actual use.

Otherwise he just becomes an evil person who kills and screws over more people remorselessly, without ever having to think about what's happening to him. The scenes with Penny, in which his nobility is stripped away and he can't rely on it to save him, or strut around relying on his father's power or money, I think are some of the most important scenes in the book. Penny brings him face to face with what life is like without Lannister gold, aristocratic priviledge, and Bronn. The humiliation scenes can be modified, although I think if Dinklage were to approach them with exactly the attitude he has, they would read very nicely as an indictment of that sort of entertainment.

Penny is at least as important as Roz, Daisy, Hot Pie, or Myrcella. More so, because she brings Tyrion to a new level of self awareness and selflessness, without which he just continues to expect to be taken care of. She's one female character NOT there to take off her clothes or mime giving head, who isn't a princess, a legendary beauty, or a sword-wielding badass. She's the only female character who's just a person, that any of the main characters ever goes out of his way for. That Tyrion gets to be that character, is incalculably important.

[Woman of War]

Great post, Ladywhiskers

I absolutely agree that Penny should have her part in the series. We have not yet seen the depressed, devastated, self loathing and spiteful Tyrion after he has killed Tywin and Shae. To complete his arc we just have to follow his character to the lowest point. And here Penny is incredibly important when she gives the character of Tyrion a perspective, a new orientation back to apparently lost human qualities, not only on an in story level. She enables the readers and viewers not to to despair in their embarrassment about what Tyrion might have become.

But she should not only be a character in relation to Tyrion. She is an interesting literary invention who should get her own background and her own story. She is not only naive, she actually has her insightful moments, can rebuke Tyrion, and give him the answer he deserves, mirror him in many ways. They should make use of that in the show. I guess it won't be easy to cast an actress who looks the part, a female actor with achondroplasia since there might be the well known problem: she must look still young and vulnerable and yet be a competent actress. They cannot age her up too much, like they did with Tyrion himself and so many others, the character would lose her innocence and naivety which is integral for Tyrion's protectiveness.

[King Tyrion I]

Please keep Penny.

I second your posts, Ladywhiskers and Woman of War. No kidding.

[The Dragon King]

I really hope Penny is not cut. She is not unimportant. She is the thing that brings back his humanity in ADWD. Tyrion needs to be exposed to a woman who is not a prostitute, not a princess, and not indifferent to him.

In the books, and on the show, Tyrion has never had to deal with being the object of someone else's unrequited love. It never happens without Penny, and without it happening, Tyrion misses out on some important character growth. Tyrion ends up taking care of Penny in a way he never took care of Sansa, or Pod, or his nieces and nephews. I think it's very necessary to see Tyrion show that true quality of a gentleman: being kind to someone for whom he has no actual use.

Otherwise he just becomes an evil person who kills and screws over more people remorselessly, without ever having to think about what's happening to him. The scenes with Penny, in which his nobility is stripped away and he can't rely on it to save him, or strut around relying on his father's power or money, I think are some of the most important scenes in the book. Penny brings him face to face with what life is like without Lannister gold, aristocratic priviledge, and Bronn. The humiliation scenes can be modified, although I think if Dinklage were to approach them with exactly the attitude he has, they would read very nicely as an indictment of that sort of entertainment.

Penny is at least as important as Roz, Daisy, Hot Pie, or Myrcella. More so, because she brings Tyrion to a new level of self awareness and selflessness, without which he just continues to expect to be taken care of. She's one female character NOT there to take off her clothes or mime giving head, who isn't a princess, a legendary beauty, or a sword-wielding badass. She's the only female character who's just a person, that any of the main characters ever goes out of his way for. That Tyrion gets to be that character, is incalculably important.

Outstanding stuff, I couldn't agree more. Penny couldn't be more important to bring Tyrion back to reality after his "woe is me" swing.

[Jiriki]

I agree with Ladywhiskers and other folks who think Penny adds an important element to Tyrion's recovery. I could do without the pig show itself, but Penny travels with Tyrion for quite a while and continues to develop his character.

I hope they cast an unknown for her role.

[Annara Snow]

I really hope Penny is not cut. She is not unimportant. She is the thing that brings back his humanity in ADWD. Tyrion needs to be exposed to a woman who is not a prostitute, not a princess, and not indifferent to him.

In the books, and on the show, Tyrion has never had to deal with being the object of someone else's unrequited love. It never happens without Penny, and without it happening, Tyrion misses out on some important character growth. Tyrion ends up taking care of Penny in a way he never took care of Sansa, or Pod, or his nieces and nephews. I think it's very necessary to see Tyrion show that true quality of a gentleman: being kind to someone for whom he has no actual use.

Otherwise he just becomes an evil person who kills and screws over more people remorselessly, without ever having to think about what's happening to him. The scenes with Penny, in which his nobility is stripped away and he can't rely on it to save him, or strut around relying on his father's power or money, I think are some of the most important scenes in the book. Penny brings him face to face with what life is like without Lannister gold, aristocratic priviledge, and Bronn. The humiliation scenes can be modified, although I think if Dinklage were to approach them with exactly the attitude he has, they would read very nicely as an indictment of that sort of entertainment.

Penny is at least as important as Roz, Daisy, Hot Pie, or Myrcella. More so, because she brings Tyrion to a new level of self awareness and selflessness, without which he just continues to expect to be taken care of. She's one female character NOT there to take off her clothes or mime giving head, who isn't a princess, a legendary beauty, or a sword-wielding badass. She's the only female character who's just a person, that any of the main characters ever goes out of his way for. That Tyrion gets to be that character, is incalculably important.

Completely agree.

Great post, Ladywhiskers
I absolutely agree that Penny should have her part in the series. We have not yet seen the depressed, devastated, self loathing and spiteful Tyrion after he has killed Tywin and Shae. To complete his arc we just have to follow his character to the lowest point. And here Penny is incredibly important when she gives the character of Tyrion a perspective, a new orientation back to apparently lost human qualities, not only on an in story level. She enables the readers and viewers not to to despair in their embarrassment about what Tyrion might have become.
But she should not only be a character in relation to Tyrion. She is an interesting literary invention who should get her own background and her own story. She is not only naive, she actually has her insightful moments, can rebuke Tyrion, and give him the answer he deserves, mirror him in many ways. They should make use of that in the show. I guess it won't be easy to cast an actress who looks the part, a female actor with achondroplasia since there might be the well known problem: she must look still young and vulnerable and yet be a competent actress. They cannot age her up too much, like they did with Tyrion himself and so many others, the character would lose her innocence and naivety which is integral for Tyrion's protectiveness.

One could say the same about Brienne, who is much more naive and idealistic in the books, but they still cast an actress quite older than the book character... and made the character less naive and innocent.

[Woman of War]

I would like it if Penny were a little more quick witted in the series, not because she is dumb in the books but since we have no inner thoughts she could thus retort Tyrion and make him question himself while dissecting what it means to be a dwarf, an ugly cripple in that world. Apart from some comic relief, not to the degree that her character appears as funny sidekick cliché but as introducing a distancing level of irony into the gruesome., for example the irony of nearly getting eaten by lions. But at all costs they should keep her wideeyed astonishment facing the world.

[The Dragon King]

One could say the same about Brienne, who is much more naive and idealistic in the books, but they still cast an actress quite older than the book character... and made the character less naive and innocent.

You could make the argument that Brienne served a similar function for Jaime's development.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I'd cast ChrisTine Urspruch for Penny. She is quite the actress and wikipedia says she is 1,32m.

[Woman of War]

Christine Urspruch is a great actress, a well known comedian just like a drama actress, she would be absolutely fitting. And she has those huge blue trusting eyes if she wants.

Though she is maybe above Penny's book age. But if they cast a quality actress this might be a point to neglect. And sorry, once again: she is by far not ugly enough ;)

[Mordos_Kull]

I know that they do want to cast Penny in the next series, as there have been casting calls for her already.

From the looks of things, they are going to cast her through Warwick Davis's company.

[Ser Tahu]

I know that they do want to cast Penny in the next series, as there have been casting calls for her already.

From the looks of things, they are going to cast her through Warwick Davis's company.

Source?

[Rhaegar Jaime Tyrell]

Hopefully they cast pretty pig and crunch. Ill be gutted if anything bad happened to them.

[Annara Snow]

Christine Urspruch is a great actress, a well known comedian just like a drama actress, she would be absolutely fitting. And she has those huge blue trusting eyes if she wants.

Though she is maybe above Penny's book age. But if they cast a quality actress this might be a point to neglect. And sorry, once again: she is by far not ugly enough ;)

I don't remember Penny being described as ugly. Tyrion, on the other hand, definitely is, as we all know, but that didn't stop them from casting Peter Dinklage. Who is also well above book Tyrion's age.

[Woman of War]

I don't remember Penny being described as ugly. Tyrion, on the other hand, definitely is, as we all know, but that didn't stop them from casting Peter Dinklage. Who is also well above book Tyrion's age.

You are right, Penny is probably not ugly at all, she has huge attractive eyes and a fine skin apparently.

And Tyrion sees her as kind of ugly because he is convinced that someone who is like him cannot be anything but ugly, an expression of his self loathing and not an an unbiased evaluation of Penny's looks.

Yet I guess that most people of their timesetting would have seen both Penny and Tyrion with his nose still in place as ugly. In a superstitious society like that cripples were automatically associated with misfortune, bad luck, a curse of the gods, useles eater. A characterization that made them appear as ugly to their environment no matter if they were the prettiest little person around: they were the epitome of insufficient, far away from the grace of gods. Tyrion may have been a really cute child, if not pretty then at least charming in his cleverness, and yet his father hated him from the beginning since he knew he was 'a cripple' and therefore nothing but a gargoyle.

So no, it does not matter that Dinklage is actually quite attractive, the general idea of someone like him is 'ugly' in Tyrion's world and only very few gifted people would be able to look behind that convention of his timesetting. (well, with his nose now gone he may look as he always thought of himself to look).

So, you are right, it does not matter at all if the actress cast as Penny is good looking, I was half joking since many have criticized Tyrion being too good looking as a kind of "whitewashing" for that character.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

Ugh... I'm sorry, but I hate Penny... with a passion. Some of the Tyrion chapters in aDwD were made poorer by her presence. Especially those scenes where they ride the dog and the pig... F**k that. :frown5:

In all honesty, seeing the serious tone and the less fantasy elements the show has portrayed, they're probably gonna' cut her out, and have Tyrion befriend Jorah Mormont instead. They could replace her with Septa Lemore, or something. :dunno:

[Woman of War]

I guess, King of Cooked Steak, you feel that Tyrion by the interaction with Penny gets diminished and ridiculed as hero of the books, pushed into a direction of conventionally funny dwarf character. You feel a proxy shame for a character you may like, you are embarrassed by him appearing ridiculous.

I can understand that. You should know that Tyrion is my favorite character in the books, and certainly not because he is on a straight way to heroism.

I think Martin is telling us here about the cruel reality of what it means to be an ugly cripple, a dwarf in that society. Tyrion does for sure not turn into a "dwarf character" when he more or less agrees to performing, he stays a compelling protagonist who happens to have some physical characteristics that bring him in serious conflict with the expectations of that world. Characteristics that push him into a certain direction of life and would even more if he weren't born as a rich brat.

But Martin basically only highlights Tyrion's whole life here: hasn't he been forced to perform all his life, on stage every second, wrapping himself into his role as imp? He cannot simply BE the Hand of the king in the eyes of others, he is on stage as dwarf who plays being Hand of the king. He cannot simply love a woman he wants to love he has to buy the illusion. And as child he tries to perform in many ways to get the attention of his father in that so very tragic relationship. But neither being the successful student he probably was nor being the funny entertainer brought Daddy's respect, let alone love. Tyrion was doomed to perform whenever he communicated, with the exception of maybe Jaime.

His time as slave with Penny only highlights this. Being brought down rock bottom by the author, making us feel burning proxy shame for him when he hatefucks that prostitute at Selhorys (a reason to feel proxy shame) or rides the pig (not really imo) is the base of building him up in all his complexity. He is not the hero who has lost a fight, he has not been honorably dishonored, he has been morally undressed, robbed of any pride, his deformed body has been exposed, a humiliation for Tyrion where most others have no reason to see any, he has lost control of his emotions and of all self respect. He cannot go anywhere but upwards now as literary character.

Making a character or a storyline "funny" normally takes the gravity out of it. Only here the contrary happens: the "funny" part aggravates, adds despair and depression by contrasting the story with being a Westerosi "lion", with being Tywin's son. After the killing of his father the next step in exorcising the ghost of Tywin inside while taking the last outer layer of his former identity from Tyrion.

And Penny has been means of humiliation while now she is a means of reorganizing Tyrion. (I personally hope she will get her own story as well). While Penny has little in common with Shae she has many qualities of Tysha and Sansa: in need of protection and maybe helpless alone, we will see if she really is, just like Tysha may have found the way into a positive life (I hope so since "the fallen girl becomes an abused whore" may be not unrealistic but more cliché than I like) or Sansa may finally be able to take responsibility for her own life.

And Tyrion's character is supposed to be painful, we are supposed to be at the verge of hating him, many posters in this forum, much more than fans elsewhere, have crossed that threshold already. But Martin wants his readers to go there - and I think he will want us to come back finally. So he does not simply make Tyrion lose some battles, the easy way, but the author takes considerable care with that special character's path to emotional hell. I guess he will take as much care with getting him out of there, no matter if some kind of "bittersweet ending" or a heroic death will wait for him.

I am looking forward to Dinklage' s acting here.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

I guess, King of Cooked Steak, you feel that Tyrion by the interaction with Penny gets diminished and ridiculed as hero of the books, pushed into a direction of conventionally funny dwarf character. You feel a proxy shame for a character you may like, you are embarrassed by him appearing ridiculous.

I can understand that. You should know that Tyrion is my favorite character in the books, and certainly not because he is on a straight way to heroism.

I think Martin is telling us here about the cruel reality of what it means to be an ugly cripple, a dwarf in that society. Tyrion does for sure not turn into a "dwarf character" when he more or less agrees to performing, he stays a compelling protagonist who happens to have some physical characteristics that bring him in serious conflict with the expectations of that world. Characteristics that push him into a certain direction of life and would even more if he weren't born as a rich brat.

But Martin basically only highlights Tyrion's whole life here: hasn't he been forced to perform all his life, on stage every second, wrapping himself into his role as imp? He cannot simply BE the Hand of the king in the eyes of others, he is on stage as dwarf who plays being Hand of the king. He cannot simply love a woman he wants to love he has to buy the illusion. And as child he tries to perform in many ways to get the attention of his father in that so very tragic relationship. But neither being the successful student he probably was nor being the funny entertainer brought Daddy's respect, let alone love. Tyrion was doomed to perform whenever he communicated, with the exception of maybe Jaime.

His time as slave with Penny only highlights this. Being brought down rock bottom by the author, making us feel burning proxy shame for him when he hatefucks that prostitute at Selhorys (a reason to feel proxy shame) or rides the pig (not really imo) is the base of building him up in all his complexity. He is not the hero who has lost a fight, he has not been honorably dishonored, he has been morally undressed, robbed of any pride, his deformed body has been exposed, a humiliation for Tyrion where most others have no reason to see any, he has lost control of his emotions and of all self respect. He cannot go anywhere but upwards now as literary character.

Making a character or a storyline "funny" normally takes the gravity out of it. Only here the contrary happens: the "funny" part aggravates, adds despair and depression by contrasting the story with being a Westerosi "lion", with being Tywin's son. After the killing of his father the next step in exorcising the ghost of Tywin inside while taking the last outer layer of his former identity from Tyrion.

And Penny has been means of humiliation while now she is a means of reorganizing Tyrion. (I personally hope she will get her own story as well). While Penny has little in common with Shae she has many qualities of Tysha and Sansa: in need of protection and maybe helpless alone, we will see if she really is, just like Tysha may have found the way into a positive life (I hope so since "the fallen girl becomes an abused whore" may be not unrealistic but more cliché than I like) or Sansa may finally be able to take responsibility for her own life.

And Tyrion's character is supposed to be painful, we are supposed to be at the verge of hating him, many posters in this forum, much more than fans elsewhere, have crossed that threshold already. But Martin wants his readers to go there - and I think he will want us to come back finally. So he does not simply make Tyrion lose some battles, the easy way, but the author takes considerable care with that special character's path to emotional hell. I guess he will take as much care with getting him out of there, no matter if some kind of "bittersweet ending" or a heroic death will wait for him.

I am looking forward to Dinklage' s acting here.

I understand too, where you're coming from and I believe you are right. Tyrion needs to be brought down to rock bottom, as you said. He is my favorite character too (Mostly because, even though he is portrayed as a very smart character, he is not a complete genius by any means. It is possible to get to him, as illustrated in Tywin and Shae). And I do know that he is not necessarily a hero. Being mocked and laughed at your whole with you having no control over it does tend to make you a very hateful and hostile person torwards others, and of course the big hate that Tyrion has forever had for his dead father and his "sweet" sister. When he killed Tywin it was a great shock, and I admired him more as a character (and GRRM's writing skills), but also doubt his good will. So I didn't see his "hero quality" being brought down. It's not like he WANTED to ride the pig, it's just that he is forced by himself to do it to make Penny happy, and I can respect that.

But I still don't like Penny. I didn't think that her and him should've been involved romantically (Though by the end of the book, it's less like that), but have more a brother and little sister type relationship that he never had with Cersei. It would've been like that empty gap was filled by her, or the way he handled her relationship with Sansa (mostly like in the show, not the books). I hated just how annoying and immature she was and how she was just used to give Tyrion someone to talk to. I could've easily pictured a scene where Tyrion and Jorah are playing cyvasse for instance, but have a very serious and intriguing talk during that (Something that I think D&D might do). Granted, Jorah isn't very fond of Tyrion, but still, he can find out that he isn't such a scum kinslayer after all (but still not be very friendly torwards him, since he is delivering him as a prisoner to Dany). It might be kind of cliche, but I would have liked it better but... Penny seemed more cliche in my eyes.

Still, I really hope Martin gives her a compelling storyline and a complelling conclusion. I hope that by the time WoW comes out, Penny might just look more tolerable to me, if she isn't killed 12 chapters in LOL.

And yes, when the time comes and if Penny is brought to the forefront in the show, I think Peter Dinklage will kill those scenes, like the amazing actor he is!

[Annara Snow]

Ugh... I'm sorry, but I hate Penny... with a passion. Some of the Tyrion chapters in aDwD were made poorer by her presence. Especially those scenes where they ride the dog and the pig... F**k that. :frown5:

In all honesty, seeing the serious tone and the less fantasy elements the show has portrayed, they're probably gonna' cut her out, and have Tyrion befriend Jorah Mormont instead. They could replace her with Septa Lemore, or something. :dunno:

Like the dragons, the magic and the White Walkers? Yes, the show has really been avoiding those fantasy elements. Or serious like the "Loras is gay" or "Podrick is a sex god" jokes, or countless scenes of people snarking at each other in King's Landing which weren't needed at all?

By contrast, what's "not serious" or "fantasy" about the reality of a person with dwarfism in a medieval society, being forced to be "funny" and ride on dogs and pigs for the amusement of the majority, in order to survive?