Lyanna Stark Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I can see two tracks on criticism. One I think is legitimate - criticizing stereotypes, trivilization of real world issues, etc.The other, demanding that people understand the failings of the craft....I'm not convinced. It feels like me telling someone playing a video game about how the lighting and AI is bullshit, and demanding they stop their fun to acknowledge the violations.eta: At the same time I think people on a messageboard demanding people not post their opinions in a thread is also silly. As is the argument that anyone employing a standard on craft is somehow an evil elitist fun-vampire.I do not disagree with this. As I stated, I enjoy what is commonly known as lowbrow culture for what it is. Eurodisco has simplistic melodies and most songs are repetitive with borderline ridiculous lyrics. I still love it more than the second coming of Jesus. Always have, always will do. But. If I was to engage in discussion about music, I can still be honest about what the failings of it are, just like I stated. Liking "lowbrow" culture is fair game, everyone should have the right to do so and to be allowed to like and enjoy what they want (as long as it is not hurting someone else, consenting adults, etc etc)However, if I or someone else engages in discussion here or elsewhere about eurodisco or any other type of culture, we open our viewpoints up for criticism, and it is totally legit to bring forth the downsides of whatever cultural expression we are discussing.But how does the criticism itself "help" anyone? Why do those "failings" need to be pointed out at all to people who are enjoying the book, unless the opinion was sought, or you're a professional book critic?I assume that bringing it up in discussion with someone or coming onto a discussion forum would qualify as "sought and opinion", no? The same goes for my friends who keep recommending me Hollywood RomComs and then get royally pissed off when I tell them exactly why I loathe watching Hollywood RomComs. Maybe it's because I've spent years being accused of being the worst kind of snob and elitist just because I refuse to consume certain kind of mass market culture, but I have very little sympathy for people who press their own recommendations on people and then get pissed off when they get arguments back about why their favourite book/music/movie is not to my taste and why that is so.EDIT: child interruption causing severe grammar fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I assume that bringing it up in discussion with someone or coming onto a discussion forum would qualify as "sought and opinion", no? The same goes for my friends who keep recommending me Hollywood RomComs and then get royally pissed off when I tell them exactly why I loathe watching Hollywood RomComs. Maybe it's because I've spent years being accused of being the worst kind of snob and elitist just because I refuse to consume certain kind of mass market culture, but I have very little sympathy for people who press their own recommendations on people and then get pissed off when they get arguments back about why their favourite book/music/movie is not to my taste and why that is so.If someone is trying to push something on you and you resist, i agree completely that you have every right to give your reasons. I thought you were saying something else, though:The problem enters where people defend their viewpoint of this type of culture with "OMG why are you criticising it? Just let us enjoy it you naysayer", by blinding themselves to its failings on purpose. I don't think that really helps anyone.That didn't sound to me like fans pushing their opinions on someone else. It sounded more like a non-fan demanding that fans acknowledge the flaws in their preferred reading rather than "blinding themselves to its failings on purpose." But if I misread your intent, I apologise.Now, as I said, if someone wants to start a topic with "so what do you think about the Twilight series", and someone else comes on there and says "I think it sucks, and here's why", I don't think the OP has any cause to complain. After all, they asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elder Sister Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 One cannot read trash all the time.One actually can, and often does. Besides sounding an awful lot like Jaqen H'ghar, this sort of statement is elitist.How does one decide what is trash and what isn't?I understand the point you're making, but one man's trash is another man's treasure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 How does one decide what is trash and what isn't?It's not fine tuned, but I believe there is actually a widespread agreement in culture about the difference between works that engage your brain and those that disengage it.Who will argue that Michael Bay films are highbrow? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It's not fine tuned, but I believe there is actually a widespread agreement in culture about the difference between works that engage your brain and those that disengage it.Agreement among whom? If you go by sales, it would seem there is a great deal of disagreement. In any case, I'm not sure why engaging the brain in an intellectual sense makes a particular book more worthy than one that engages a reader emotionally.I think what's really going on is that people tend to exult books that coincide with their particular views as to which issues are sufficiently important to be worthy of additional thought/consideration in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Among everyone, and I never said anything about being worthy, I just talked about categorization.For the rest, you "have to" read books? I thought you read books and then only afterwards you could judge them. If a lot of people had a great experience with some works it's only natural that they would recommend them, isn't it?When the reality is that just because something speaks to you doesn't mean it speaks to everyone else.This is why we never have recommendation threads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elder Sister Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 It's not fine tuned, but I believe there is actually a widespread agreement in culture about the difference between works that engage your brain and those that disengage it.Who will argue that Michael Bay films are highbrow?Agreed. Although I really liked the 1st Transformer movie. and I freely admit that I am lowbrow about all sorts of things, and watch Family Guy quite often. :)My point is, literature is art. Art is subjective. Shakespeare was considered the Young and the Restless of his period. Who knows? I can't see it happening, but maybe Michael Bay will be the same with regards to cinema.Having said all that, some of my favorite authors are considered high brow. I think they're supremely talented geniuses, but I am not an expert. I just know when I read something and it resonates with me, and is eternal. Those are the stories that I carry with me all of my life, that I can read over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 That didn't sound to me like fans pushing their opinions on someone else. It sounded more like a non-fan demanding that fans acknowledge the flaws in their preferred reading rather than "blinding themselves to its failings on purpose." But if I misread your intent, I apologise.Now, as I said, if someone wants to start a topic with "so what do you think about the Twilight series", and someone else comes on there and says "I think it sucks, and here's why", I don't think the OP has any cause to complain. After all, they asked.I guess there is a grey border area where say, someone is really enthusiastic about the DaVinci Code (like, my sister...) and then recommends it to you with a glowing review, you read it, think it's shit, hand the book back and just say something like "not really my cup of tea" and they get FURIOUS. In this situation I think it's legitimate to argue your standpoint.Maybe I am biased since I don't really share literary tastes with the rest of my family or a lot of my friends but a lot of them still keep recommending stuff to me, and then they get pissed off when I don't like it and tell them why. Normally I just try to make non committal noises, but I realised this made them recommend even more stuff, :crying: so being honest about it was really the only way to get them the hell off my back, as it were.Your example about Twilight is pretty common on this board actually. It's not rare to see people start threads on whatever book or book series, and then get absolutely furious when people enter the discussion with "I don't like this work and here is why...". I mean sure, hate trolling is pointless and rather lame. If it's a fanboard or fanforum discussing a certain type of culture/subject, it's pretty pointless and rude to jump in there and proclaim it totally useless and unworthy of attention.The assumption that seems to underlie a lot of what could be termed literary snobbery/elitism is that "better" books somehow illuminate your life or worldview in a way other books or experiences do not. "Oh, reading Grapes of Wrath is essential to an understand of the Depression." No, it isn't. It's no more valid than any other bit of empiricism. It's the POV of one single person, the author, not some tome of omniscience.This I agree with. Granted, the examples you gave may be generally regarded as useful in understanding something, but that doesn't make them the end all and be all, and it's still subjective which one's are good and bad.As a total sidenote, this really made me want to dive into my Eurodisco collection again. This thread inspires to consumption of low brow culture!! :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elder Sister Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Well, that's what we're here for Lyanna S.: To help you be the best that you can be. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 This is why we never have recommendation threads.There is a rather huge difference between suggesting something you believe someone else might enjoy, and pronouncing something superior that they will enjoy unless there is something wrong with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think "high brow" works are worth trying. Not because it makes you a better person, but I think it's worth trying new foods, new art, new movies, etc.I can go to a play or orchestra concert while listening to "Call Me Maybe" on the way there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyanna Stark Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Well, that's what we're here for Lyanna S.: To help you be the best that you can be. :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Former Lord of Winterfell Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I think "high brow" works are worth trying. Not because it makes you a better person, but I think it's worth trying new foods, new art, new movies, etc.Well, sure. I don't think excluding something simply because it is perceived as being "highbrow" makes a lot of sense, anymore than including it because it is "highbrow".But I'll also admit that when I hear something described as "highbrow", the first word that pops into my head is "pretentious". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errant Bard Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 There is a rather huge difference between suggesting something you believe someone else might enjoy, and pronouncing something superior that they will enjoy unless there is something wrong with them.I'm not really convinced, given the discussions following a lot of recommendation threads. I could not step in a WoT thread saying I didn't enjoy it because of <multitude of stuff, often involving female characterisation> without some people going to great length lengths to tell me how wrong I am.The latter rather seems to me to spring from the former, and more generally from an universal unwillingness to accept differing view as equally valid. I suppose I could put something about whether or not you believe in moral relativism here. ;)(also note I was responding to a post which only mentioned books "speaking to you" and later being "exulted", not one which mentioned rabid fanatism reminiscent of religion) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 + 10^10 on the Tamagochi song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elder Sister Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 + 10^10 on the Tamagochi song.+1. I watched it twice. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Quizboy Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I guess there is a grey border area where say, someone is really enthusiastic about the DaVinci Code (like, my sister...) and then recommends it to you with a glowing review, you read it, think it's shit, hand the book back and just say something like "not really my cup of tea" and they get FURIOUS. In this situation I think it's legitimate to argue your standpoint.As a total sidenote, this really made me want to dive into my Eurodisco collection again. This thread inspires to consumption of low brow culture!! :lol:I know that feeling. There are certain books/authors that if you don't worship on here, the fanboys go apeshit.And this thread does kinda make we want to break out the old D&D tie ins :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sci-2 Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 I know that feeling. There are certain books/authors that if you don't worship on here, the fanboys go apeshit.Curious - which authors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy Quizboy Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Mieville, Glen Duncan, McCarthy are the three that pop to mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolverine Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 Mieville, Glen Duncan, McCarthy are the three that pop to mind.Who are Glen Duncan and McCarthy?It seems like a large part of the debate is: why should people read books or should it matter why people read books? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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