From Pawn to Player: Rethinking Sansa XI

[Pod The Impaler]

Robb took them all the way down to the end, past Grandfather and Brandon and Lyanna, to show them their own tombs. Sansa kept looking at the stubby little candle, anxious that it might go out. Old Nan had told her there were spiders down here, and rats as big as dogs. Robb smiled when she said that. "There are worse things than spiders and rats," he whispered. "This is where the dead walk." That was when they heard the sound, low and deep and shivery. Baby Bran had clutched at Arya's hand.

When the spirit stepped out of the open tomb, pale white and moaning for blood, Sansa ran shrieking for the stairs, and Bran wrapped himself around Robb's leg, sobbing. Arya stood her ground and gave the spirit a punch. It was only Jon, covered with flour. "You stupid," she told him, "you scared the baby," but Jon and Robb just laughed and laughed, and pretty soon Bran and Arya were laughing too.

Very interesting, and it extends the parallel between Jon's and Sansa's resurrection/rebirth arcs that we've been discussing. The Stark children in this memory are performing their expected roles: Arya is bold and unafraid, Sansa is timid and easily frightened; yet since then she's learnt not to be so easily spooked I would argue, and as you noted, she had no reason to be afraid of this particular spirit.

Sansa runs away from the danger as fast as she can. Arya, of course, instinctively lashes out at it. This reminds me of the passage in ADWD where Dany is thinking about riding dragons, stating that a horse's instinct is to turn away from a threat, but a dragon's instinct is to turn to attack it.

[Knight]

Although it is associated with the element of air, the ash is also akin to the fire element for its amazing burning qualities. The wood of the ash burns with intense heat, even when green. This surfaced ideas of resurrection and renewal (could this also hint at a transformation Sandor might undergo while at the QI, or something that might play into Sansa's Persephone mythos?) for the Celts.

Great analysis Queen of Winter, a lot of food for thought indeed. The quote above brought up the thought that Sandor may be able to overcome his fear for fire; conquering your fears is one of the biggest accomplishments somebody can achieve in the process of mental growth. Perhaps Sandor will let his fear for fire aside on a time when it's crucial that his help is required? Another sack or battle where fire is involved and where he has to come to the rescue? (Slightly offtopic: this thought was fueled by the story of Batman, who was afraid of bats as a little kid but eventually chose the bat as to symbolize that he had conquered his fear for them)

[Queen of Winter]

Kittykatknits, that was an excellent post you made in Rethinking IX. I did miss that version of the thread, being MIA at the time. The threads move so quickly at times, it's hard to go back to try and catch up on things, so I really appreciate your providing me the link. :)

(I couldn't quote your old message so I put your posting in italics.)

I admit that there is a fair amount of crackpot and assumptions going on here but I think that some of this may actually be correct. << You know, when all is said and done and the series is finished, I'd love to see if any of us were correct in some of our "crackpots". I like the idea of crackpots because there's always a chance that when you brainstorm and throw out all convention, you might find a new idea or way of looking at something, just might open the door and reveal something previously hidden. (Of course some crackpots are just nutty...but it's all good!)

- Dany dreams of fighting at the Trident. The Trident was also the deciding battle in Robert’s Rebellion.<< Definitely. I do think we might see this happen, though we all know what happened to Rhaegar. If we do...honestly, I think history will be repeating itself. and Dany will die.

The War of The Five Kings did start in the Riverlands, if I remember correctly, so I do think it needs to end there.

And in that vein, I do think we will be revisiting certain elements of "the past" when the time for the Final Battle comes. I think after that, things will have come "full circle".

-Persuading the Vale to lend their army and food to fight against the Others

-Restore order and peace after the battle is done

-Use her skills of flattery, courtesy, empathy to negotiate or help different factions work together. Much has been made that Sansa has connections to the Riverlands, Vale, the North, and Westerlands. I don’t think she is meant to rule all these areas but this is a way that her ties to each of them may impact the storyline.

- We’ve talked in the past that Sansa may have a friendship with Dany and this could be how it is introduced in the storyline.

I think all of these are possibilities. I would guess TWOW book will answer a lot of our questions of where she's going/what GRRM has in mind for her.

Of course there is also what Ned told Arya:

"You were born in the long summer, sweet one, you’ve never known anything else, but now the winter is truly coming.", and

“Let me tell you something about wolves, child. When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies, but the pack survives. Summer is the time for squabbles. In winter, we must protect one another, keep each other warm, share our strengths."

I think you're going to see a lot of old connections/forgotten connections being remade, and the Starks somehow finding each other again.

If we follow the LoTR model again, then this could be the final battle and then the closing of the series would be the return home, back to WF just as the hobbits return to the Shire.<< I have thought the same, and I do like the idea as it makes sense. Endings are sad and bittersweet, but you pick up the pieces and you go on, because "the sun comes out again", and life goes on.

I want to mention something Brash and Tze talked about in their explorations. Snow White was mentioned earlier, and it was said that winter seemed to be "coming" for Sansa, that she might be undergoing a "transformation"

In past threads, I seem to remember people comparing Sansa to Queen Elizabeth I. How her mother Anne Boleyn was executed (think of Ned here, who was also beheaded), how she was denied the Throne (think of Robbs Will), and how she had been imprisoned for a year (Sansa being held in Kings Landing).

We all know QEI ruled alone, with no King. In Westeros, I don't believe there has ever been a standalone Queen in the North. You've always has Winter Kings (perhaps with or without consorts), but no standalone Winter Queens.

Could it be that Sansa might become Winterfell's first Winter Queen? Rather I should say, the first "Queen of Winter"? ;)

After all the fighting, bloodshed and loss, she may not want any part of being a Queen--I can see arguments rightfully going both ways.

(Also just to mention....pomegranates were found on 16th century Elizabethan textiles, I believe as blackwork embroidery or as motifs on woven fabrics. I think they also appear in portraits...)

I found his response to be a validation for much of the discussion in this thread. This interview came out at a good time as there were discussions elsewhere in this board on how to read and evaluate the text, with some making the argument that we should only go on the literal content of the page. In other words, if it is not explicitly written, it doesn't count. I know that you, and many other regular posters in this thread, disagree with that approach. So, his statement was a nice confirmation of our approach.

Thank you for giving me the link to the interview too, I'm going to take a look at it. Kudos to Lady Lea for helping to translate it. And it's good to know that we're on the right track!

On the subject of duality you and I talked about, also I want to briefly visit Jane Eyre. Remember when Rochester told Jane he wanted to marry her, it was raining and he asked her beneath a large horse-chestnut tree? After he proposed to her, and sometime during the night the tree was struck by lightening and was split in half. ;)

Great analysis Queen of Winter, a lot of food for thought indeed. The quote above brought up the thought that Sandor may be able to overcome his fear for fire; conquering your fears is one of the biggest accomplishments somebody can achieve in the process of mental growth. Perhaps Sandor will let his fear for fire aside on a time when it's crucial that his help is required? Another sack or battle where fire is involved and where he has to come to the rescue? (Slightly offtopic: this thought was fueled by the story of Batman, who was afraid of bats as a little kid but eventually chose the bat as to symbolize that he had conquered his fear for them)

Glad you liked it, Knight. It could be that Sandor might overcome his fear of fire--it's certainly a possibility. (BTW: I didn't know Batman was afraid of bats as a kid :huh: .)

Also, to add to the crackpottedness I want to mention this, which made me think of the ASOIAF song, "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" (albeit in a strange way) , it is "The Story of Snow White and Rose Red."

Snow White and Rose Red (Sansa and Arya) are two little girls living with their mother a poor widow (Catelyn), in a small cottage. They are very good little girls; they love each other dearly; and their mother is very fond of them. Rose Red (Arya) is outspoken and cheerful and loves to play outside. Snow-White (Sansa) is quiet and shy and prefers doing housework and reading.

The two children loved one another so much, that they always walked hand in hand; and when Snow White said, “We will not forsake one another,” Rose Red answered, “Never, as long as we live;” and the mother added, “Yes, my children, whatever one has, let her divide with the other.”

One winter night, there is a knock at the door. Rose Red opens the door to find a bear (perhaps Sandor here). At first, she is terrified, but the bear tells her not to be afraid. They let the bear in, and he lies down in front of the fire. Snow White and Rose Red beat the snow off the bear, and they quickly become quite friendly with him.

When summer comes, the bear tells them that he must go away for a while to guard his treasure from a wicked dwarf (could this be Tyrion?).

“I must go into the wood, and guard my treasures from the bad dwarfs; in winter, when the ground is frozen hard, they have to stay underneath, and cannot work their way through, but now that the sun has thawed and warmed the earth, they break through, come up, seek, and steal: what is once in their hands, and lies in their caverns, does not come so easily into daylight again.”

Snow White was quite sorrowful at parting, and as she unbolted the door for him, and the bear ran out, the hook of the door caught him, and a piece of his skin tore off; it seemed to Snow White as if she had seen gold shining through, but she was not sure. But the bear ran quickly away, and soon disappeared behind the trees."

During the summer, when the girls are walking through the forest, they find a dwarf whose beard is stuck in a tree. The girls encounter the dwarf several times that summer, rescue him from some peril each time, and the dwarf is ungrateful each time. Then one day, they meet the dwarf once again; this time, he is terrified because the bear is about to kill him.

The dwarf pleads with the bear, begs it to eat the girls instead; but the bear pays no heed and kills the dwarf with one swipe of his paw. Instantly, the bear turns into a prince. The dwarf had bewitched the prince by stealing his gold and turning him into a bear, but the curse is broken with the death of the dwarf. Snow White marries the prince, and Rose Red marries his brother.

And the Bear and the Maiden Fair? It describes in a humorous tone the story of a hairy bear that, while going to a fair with a band of three boys and a goat, rescues a maiden who was hoping for a knight. :P

Ok, ok. It's not perfect. But I think there are some similarities :rolleyes::

Sansa and Arya as sisters, are total opposites. The Snow White and Rose Red are close in the Fairy Tale, but Sansa and Arya aren't in ASOIAF. However, Ned tells Arya this :

"So if you must hate, Arya, hate those who would truly do us harm. ....Sansa is your sister. You may be as different as the sun and the moon, but the same blood flows through both your hearts. You need her, as she needs you…"

Could that tie into the part of the Fairy Tale where is says the girls promised to never forsake one another?

The Bear and the Dwarf. I was thinking the bear might be Sandor, as Sansa and Arya both had interactions with him, and despite all his fierce looks and blustering, he didn't harm either of them. The children in the Fairy tale also didn't fear him. When the bear left for the summer, Snow White was sorrowful. We also know after Sandor fled Kings Landing, that Sansa often thought of him, and she does wonder what happened to him. However I'm not saying Sandor is a Prince, nor that Arya is going to marry his now dead brother. LOL.

The Dwarf might be Tyrion, we know that Sandor and Tyrion don't get along to say the least. Will Sandor kill Tyrion? Who knows? Sandor was upset to hear Sansa had been married off to him, so in the Fairy Tale is Sansa supposed to be "the treasure" that was stolen?

I have no explanation for the Fairy Tale children and the Dwarf vs. Sansa, Arya and Tyrion ,only that Tyrion was upset with Sansa for not desiring him as a husband.

As for the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair": We know of Sansa's former love of songs and stories about Knights and Ladies. Well, who tried to help her when she was in a den of lions and needed a rescue? Who offered to take her from Kings Landing? (And who has a thing for her?) Not a True Knight, but Sandor.

[Lady Lea]

I wouldn't hang my hopes in The Bear and the Maiden Fair... I know the wiki says it's about a maiden who was rescued by a bear but if you take a look at the lyrics, there isn't any rescuing going on, but a fair bit of oral sex... and it doesn't even sound very consensual tbh

"She kicked and wailed," "The maid so fair," "But he licked the honey," "From her hair!" "Her hair! Her hair!" "He licked the honey," "From her hair!"

[tze]

We all know QEI ruled alone, with no King. In Westeros, I don't believe there has ever been a standalone Queen in the North. You've always has Winter Kings (perhaps with or without consorts), but no standalone Winter Queens.

Could it be that Sansa might become Winterfell's first Winter Queen? Rather I should say, the first "Queen of Winter"? ;)

I think the chances of Sansa being a Winter Queen are pretty massive, but I'm not sure what "method" would lead to literal Queenship here. Forgive me if this parallel was discussed in previous threads---I don't remember reading such a discussion, but I might have just missed it, since y'all are rather prolific:

The Stark/Lannister conflict always reminded me of an inverted Narnia---in Narnia, forces aligned with the lion Aslan opposed forces aligned with the winter-associated (and wolf-associated, via the talking wolf Maugrim) White Witch, the former serving as the "heroes" and the latter serving as the "villains". In ASOIAF, forces aligned with the lion (Lannister) opposed forces aligned with the winter-and-wolf-associated House of Stark, with the former serving as "villains" and the latter serving as the "heroes" (yes, I realize the heroes/villains divide is far clearer in Narnia than in Westeros, but I think we can safely say that the Starks are far more sympathetic to readers than the White Witch and the Lannisters are far more sinister to readers than Aslan). In Narnia, the White Witch was a single figure, a single "Queen of Winter"---but I think it's worth noting that we have multiple "lions" in Westeros, and multiple "sorcerer/sorceress" figures among the House of Stark.

In the crypt incident I quoted upthread, there were five Stark siblings present (Rickon apparently not yet having been born). Robb is now dead, which leaves four "living" (or resurrected, depending) Starks present in that scene: Jon, Sansa, Bran, and Arya. There are certain parallels between these four Starks and the four Pevensie siblings---Jon as Peter, Sansa as Susan, Bran as Edmund, and Arya as Lucy. And the interesting thing about Narnia was that the four Pevensie siblings all became Kings and Queens of Narnia (two Kings, one of them the High King, and two Queens---not one King with one prince/two princesses). Thus far, we've had Jon associated with a King, and both Sansa and Arya associated with Queenship. Bran is still associated with being a prince, but that could change. So perhaps we won't have a "single" King or Queen of Winter, but rather, multiple Kings/Queens?

And with Sansa, the Narnia parallels are interesting because, again, of the inversion factor. Susan Pevensie started out as a Queen of Narnia, but then "cast off" Narnia because she became interested in romance, material wealth, etc. This transformation meant that, when her three siblings eventually returned to Narnia, she could not come with them. (I know C.S. Lewis stated that he always thought she made it to Narnia eventually, but come on. The whole Susan issue always rather pissed me off.) Sansa's plot arc has basically been the inverse of Susan---Sansa starts out obsessed with romance and material things, then she progresses into a more mature figure more heavily associated with her siblings and more wholly associated with the aspects of a 'true' Queen. So Sansa's plot arc could be structured to have her join her siblings as Queen of Winter in the end, embracing a Queenship role where Susan Pevensie cast hers off.

I was thinking on the wording of "dark as ash". What does or what could "dark" mean?

It could mean black--as in black ash, which is a tree.

I don't know if this is reaching or not, but look at this ash tree outside of Mole's Town:

“M’lord? Look up there. The big drunkard on the hill.”

The drunkard was an ash tree, twisted sideways by centuries of wind. And now it had a face. A solemn mouth, a broken branch for a nose, two eyes carved deep into the trunk, gazing north up the kingsroad, toward the castle and the Wall.

The wildlings of Mole's Town carved a face into this ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood tree (they did it to other trees---a chestnut and an oak---but the ash tree was the first one spotted, the tree found farthest to the north of Mole's Town). Sandor is frequently shown getting sloshed, and this ash tree is called "the drunkard"---there might be an association there, especially given that Bran's vision showed a shadow "dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound", and here we see an ash tree with a literal face. (Not that Bran was literally seeing this ash tree, but that Bran's vision of Sandor might share symbolic meaning with this ash tree.) The wildlings are using this ash tree as a surrogate for what they do not have---a weirwood tree. Sandor's bloody Kingsguard cloak does have certain symbolic associations with a weirwood tree, and Sansa hiding it "beneath her summer silks" could be seen as her basically using it as a weirwood-substitute (rather like what Jon does with Ghost, his walking weirwood tree); not to mention, we know Sansa has used dogs in the past as "surrogates" for her lost direwolf, so the idea of an ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood would dovetail with the idea of the Hound/dogs as a surrogate for Sansa's lost direwolf.

[brashcandy]

And with Sansa, the Narnia parallels are interesting because, again, of the inversion factor. Susan Pevensie started out as a Queen of Narnia, but then "cast off" Narnia because she became interested in romance, material wealth, etc. This transformation meant that, when her three siblings eventually returned to Narnia, she could not come with them. (I know C.S. Lewis stated that he always thought she made it to Narnia eventually, but come on. The whole Susan issue always rather pissed me off.) Sansa's plot arc has basically been the inverse of Susan---Sansa starts out obsessed with romance and material things, then she progresses into a more mature figure more heavily associated with her siblings and more wholly associated with the aspects of a 'true' Queen. So Sansa's plot arc could be structured to have her join her siblings as Queen of Winter in the end, embracing a Queenship role where Susan Pevensie cast hers off.

Forgive me, I've never read the Narnia books (just watched the movies) :) but I do like your analogy here a lot. I have to add though, that although we see Sansa gradually moving closer to her Northern roots, and less concerned with material things, she's still associated with romance, just a different version than she had previously envisioned for herself. We've talked a lot of how Sansa might be instrumental in rebuilding Winterfell, but there are signs that she may reject the Queenship role and choose instead a more unconventional path.

The wildlings of Mole's Town carved a face into this ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood tree (they did it to other trees---a chestnut and an oak---but the ash tree was the first one spotted, the tree found farthest to the north of Mole's Town). Sandor is frequently shown getting sloshed, and this ash tree is called "the drunkard"---there might be an association there, especially given that Bran's vision showed a shadow "dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound", and here we see an ash tree with a literal face. (Not that Bran was literally seeing this ash tree, but that Bran's vision of Sandor might share symbolic meaning with this ash tree.) The wildlings are using this ash tree as a surrogate for what they do not have---a weirwood tree. Sandor's bloody Kingsguard cloak does have certain symbolic associations with a weirwood tree, and Sansa hiding it "beneath her summer silks" could be seen as her basically using it as a weirwood-substitute (rather like what Jon does with Ghost, his walking weirwood tree); not to mention, we know Sansa has used dogs in the past as "surrogates" for her lost direwolf, so the idea of an ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood would dovetail with the idea of the Hound/dogs as a surrogate for Sansa's lost direwolf.

Also, not only does Sansa keep the cloak, but we see her using it to cover herself on two occasions and draws comfort from it. If we consider that Sandor is indeed her replacement for the lost direwolf, this could represent some form of slipping into his skin as her other siblings are able to do with their wolves.

[Queen of Winter]

In the crypt incident I quoted upthread, there were five Stark siblings present (Rickon apparently not yet having been born). Robb is now dead, which leaves four "living" (or resurrected, depending) Starks present in that scene: Jon, Sansa, Bran, and Arya. There are certain parallels between these four Starks and the four Pevensie siblings---Jon as Peter, Sansa as Susan, Bran as Edmund, and Arya as Lucy. And the interesting thing about Narnia was that the four Pevensie siblings all became Kings and Queens of Narnia (two Kings, one of them the High King, and two Queens---not one King with one prince/two princesses). Thus far, we've had Jon associated with a King, and both Sansa and Arya associated with Queenship. Bran is still associated with being a prince, but that could change. So perhaps we won't have a "single" King or Queen of Winter, but rather, multiple Kings/Queens?

And with Sansa, the Narnia parallels are interesting because, again, of the inversion factor. Susan Pevensie started out as a Queen of Narnia, but then "cast off" Narnia because she became interested in romance, material wealth, etc. This transformation meant that, when her three siblings eventually returned to Narnia, she could not come with them. (I know C.S. Lewis stated that he always thought she made it to Narnia eventually, but come on. The whole Susan issue always rather pissed me off.) Sansa's plot arc has basically been the inverse of Susan---Sansa starts out obsessed with romance and material things, then she progresses into a more mature figure more heavily associated with her siblings and more wholly associated with the aspects of a 'true' Queen. So Sansa's plot arc could be structured to have her join her siblings as Queen of Winter in the end, embracing a Queenship role where Susan Pevensie cast hers off.

I really like the parallel you drew to Narnia. And I agree that the whole Susan "debacle" ticked me off too. The idea of multiple Kings and Queens of Winter is very intriguing, but I'm not sure how it might play out.

To be honest, I think it's going to come down to having a Queen and not a King. Currently it seems that Bran will wind up taking Bloodraven's place, north of the Wall. Jon--I'm worried that he's going to need to make an ultimate sacrifice in the end. (Of course nothing is written in stone, and we still have a lot of pieces missing in the puzzle).

So that leaves Sansa and Arya. Sansa definitely has natural tools and talents at her disposal for a Queenship.

In the one of the last few thread incarnations, I remember reading something about Sansa being likened to a pawn (as on chessboard). It bought to mind the Red Queen from Lewis Carroll's "Through the Looking Glass". (Maybe the Red Queen could be interpreted as Cersei?)

" The Red Queen could be viewed as an antagonist in the story as she is the queen for the side opposing Alice. Despite this, their initial encounter is a cordial one, with the Red Queen explaining the rules of Chess concerning promotion — specifically that Alice is able to become a queen by starting out as a pawn...."

And I really think Arya is going to come into her own. Currently, she might not want to be a Queen, and we know she hates anything have to do with institutions that are associated with a monarchy (or anything "proper" and "ladylike"). If she becomes a Queen, I think she'd rule with a firm hand (but I think like Sandor, she needs to learn to temper her anger). How she comes to possibly walk a path to Queenship is not clear at the moment. But I think once she learns whatever lesson she "needs to learn" by being a FM, that she will find her way home.

But at times I feel the girls might do a complete 360 from where they first started out in AGOT, with Arya becoming a Queen and Sansa deciding to choose a simpler life. Most of the time, I feel Sansa will choose that simpler path, due to the things she's endured--that's she's "had enough" and wants to have a peaceful,quiet life.

The wildlings of Mole's Town carved a face into this ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood tree (they did it to other trees---a chestnut and an oak---but the ash tree was the first one spotted, the tree found farthest to the north of Mole's Town). Sandor is frequently shown getting sloshed, and this ash tree is called "the drunkard"---

Oh that fits. I definitely don't think it's reaching! :laugh: :thumbsup:

Sandor's bloody Kingsguard cloak does have certain symbolic associations with a weirwood tree...

Yes, I'm thinking you mean the white cloak representing the tree bark, and the red blood on the cloak representing the leaves or the sap......

EDIT: spelling

[Kittykatknits]

Kittykatknits, that was an excellent post you made in Rethinking IX. I did miss that version of the thread, being MIA at the time. The threads move so quickly at times, it's hard to go back to try and catch up on things, so I really appreciate your providing me the link. :)

(I couldn't quote your old message so I put your posting in italics.)

I admit that there is a fair amount of crackpot and assumptions going on here but I think that some of this may actually be correct. << You know, when all is said and done and the series is finished, I'd love to see if any of us were correct in some of our "crackpots". I like the idea of crackpots because there's always a chance that when you brainstorm and throw out all convention, you might find a new idea or way of looking at something, just might open the door and reveal something previously hidden. (Of course some crackpots are just nutty...but it's all good!)

- Dany dreams of fighting at the Trident. The Trident was also the deciding battle in Robert’s Rebellion.<< Definitely. I do think we might see this happen, though we all know what happened to Rhaegar. If we do...honestly, I think history will be repeating itself. and Dany will die.

The War of The Five Kings did start in the Riverlands, if I remember correctly, so I do think it needs to end there.

And in that vein, I do think we will be revisiting certain elements of "the past" when the time for the Final Battle comes. I think after that, things will have come "full circle".

Yes, I'm curious if any of the crackpots will be proven correct or not too, especially those that have come out of these threads. As you say, my post was an attempt to brainstorm and guess what other roles Sansa might play. I tend to think of her current situation as the personal. So, I wanted to look at the broader theories about the Others and larger Westeros politics and make some guesses one what role Sansa could play. I'm not a fan of the idea that Sansa will marry HtH and then rule the Vale with/through him. I think she is more important to the story than that.

I also agree with you that we will see history repeat itself. Towards the end of the last thread, we had talked about Westeros as a broken world, how nothing seemed to work right. It was a place that is off balance and needs to be righted. Even though the story itself did not start with Robert's Rebellion, I feel as if the story was put in place by it. In order, to fix Westeros, I think the story will need to go back to the beginning, go back to where the problem started. In this way, I can see the return to the Riverlands marking the point where Westeros is finally in the position to be able to put itself back in to a balance.

I think there is a good chance Dany will not survive the series. I see her as a form of needed chaos, a way to bring the dramatic social and political chance that is desperately needed. To me, the role Dany played in Mereen is misunderstood at times. To me, it wasn't merely to show her as someone not able to rule as I believe she is much more important than that. Those who believe that she is merely a bad ruler are missing what really happened to her. To me, I saw the world bending and moving around her. She's a presence that doesn't merely inspire change, but demands and forces it. I don't know if she'll need to be a queen in Westeros to do this or not though. Maybe the dragons will be enough? :)

In past threads, I seem to remember people comparing Sansa to Queen Elizabeth I. How her mother Anne Boleyn was executed (think of Ned here, who was also beheaded), how she was denied the Throne (think of Robbs Will), and how she had been imprisoned for a year (Sansa being held in Kings Landing).

We all know QEI ruled alone, with no King. In Westeros, I don't believe there has ever been a standalone Queen in the North. You've always has Winter Kings (perhaps with or without consorts), but no standalone Winter Queens.

On the subject of duality you and I talked about, also I want to briefly visit Jane Eyre. Remember when Rochester told Jane he wanted to marry her, it was raining and he asked her beneath a large horse-chestnut tree? After he proposed to her, and sometime during the night the tree was struck by lightening and was split in half. ;)

I wonder if the tree being divided like that could also symolize that it was not yet time for Jane and Rochester to be together? The truth about his first wife was revealed at their wedding and she ran away shortly after. It's like Sansa and Sandor. In Jane's case, she knew they could not yet be together. With Sansa, she could not go with him, in part (at least I like to think of it this way), for the same reason. If we look at the lightning as a form of fire, it adds to the imagery too. Then, Rochester lost his sight during a fire. Compare that to Sandor, he had to leave during the BBW as "green fire filled the sky". Could it be that something related to fire will bring them back together again?

We've never had a standalone QitN (Queen in the North). The upcoming novella with the she-wolves will hopefully be very revealing but they were widows.

I could see Sansa going the Queen route with a paramour as I think there is foreshadowing for this path rather than a traditional marriage.

Also, to add to the crackpottedness I want to mention this, which made me think of the ASOIAF song, "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" (albeit in a strange way) , it is "The Story of Snow White and Rose Red."

As for the song "The Bear and the Maiden Fair": We know of Sansa's former love of songs and stories about Knights and Ladies. Well, who tried to help her when she was in a den of lions and needed a rescue? Who offered to take her from Kings Landing? (And who has a thing for her?) Not a True Knight, but Sandor.

Have you seen bgona's post on this song as it relates to the two of them? I tracked it down via tumblr for you to take a look:

http://bgona.tumblr.com/post/25605234935/the-bear-and-the-maiden-fair-from-a-sansan-view

She draws some great parallels betwee these two and the song.

Also, not only does Sansa keep the cloak, but we see her using it to cover herself on two occasions and draws comfort from it. If we consider that Sandor is indeed her replacement for the lost direwolf, this could represent some form of slipping into his skin as her other siblings are able to do with their wolves.

We have done some (crackpot) theories on whether she has warged him or not so this fits nicely. I also see at as an extension of her empath skills. I think of all the people she has come in to contact with, the empath skill has been seen most strongly with Sandor. So, perhaps her putting the cloak on is a way to slide into his skin and deepen that connnection?

I really like the parallel you drew to Narnia. And I agree that the whole Susan "debacle" ticked me off too. The idea of multiple Kings and Queens of Winter is very intriguing, but I'm not sure how it might play out. .

Can you expalin this a bit? I read the first book in the 6th grade and have had no desire to pick the series up since. Is the debacle because she chose "shallow" things which meant she could no longer return to Narnia? That is my understanding based upon what you and tze wrote.

[KittensRuleBeetsDrool]

I really like the parallel you drew to Narnia. And I agree that the whole Susan "debacle" ticked me off too. The idea of multiple Kings and Queens of Winter is very intriguing, but I'm not sure how it might play out.

To be honest, I think it's going to come down to having a Queen and not a King. Currently it seems that Bran will wind up taking Bloodraven's place, north of the Wall. Jon--I'm worried that he's going to need to make an ultimate sacrifice in the end. (Of course nothing is written in stone, and we still have a lot of pieces missing in the puzzle).

So that leaves Sansa and Arya. Sansa definitely has natural tools and talents at her disposal for a Queenship.

I agree. Tyrion thought what a good queen she'd make at Joffrey's wedding to Margaery. And this was only partway through her current character arc. She's developing the accretions of queenship more and more as she gets older. And below there is a parallel made between Queen Elizabeth I and Sansa - Elizabeth developed her noted "Game of Thrones" skills of cunning and manipulation through a very, very difficult childhood and imprisonment by her half-sister.

And I've already noted, there is a change in the Westerosi air with regard to gender roles and ruling. I'm not going to go back and name all the heiresses and potential heiresses we've met but suffice it to say that a good portion of the major houses of Westeros might be ruled by women by the time the series ends. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out - they are used to it in Dorne, but how about the rest of the country? I think that Westeros wlll be the better of it. I see GRRM as showing us how patriarchy is a bad thing. I also wonder if the Dornish idea of paramourship will become more widespread. I've been beating the drum for Sansa to have a paramour or two (and Kittykatknits has too!); it just might be the ideal solution for a woman to be able to rule without a "lord husband" and yet be able to have sex and children and an acknowledged relationship. Oberyn Martell treated Ellaria Sand like his wife, and the Sand Snakes like trueborn daughters - even if their mothers were no longer in the picture. And Arianne, the Martell heiress, is very close with her "bastard" cousins. I just love the scene in ADWD where Arianne and her cousins all recite the Martell family motto together and hug and kiss.

And I really think Arya is going to come into her own. Currently, she might not want to be a Queen, and we know she hates anything have to do with institutions that are associated with a monarchy (or anything "proper" and "ladylike"). If she becomes a Queen, I think she'd rule with a firm hand (but I think like Sandor, she needs to learn to temper her anger). How she comes to possibly walk a path to Queenship is not clear at the moment. But I think once she learns whatever lesson she "needs to learn" by being a FM, that she will find her way home.

I would like to see the two sisters learn to rule together. The oft-quoted "when winter comes the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" suggests to me that the sisters need to reconcile and use their differences to work together wisely for the good of the realm. I think each has the strengths that can compliment the other - and that they are more alike than they think, two sides of the same coin.

(And by the way: Pomegranates were indeed found in a lot of blackwork embroidery. Queen Catherine of Aragon took the pomegranate as her personal badge - the name means "apple of Granada" and Granada was the city where she spent her happy childhood. Also, she hoped to be fertile and pomegranates symbolize fertility. Alas, that was not to be, but she did popularize the design.)

I like your digging in to symbolism. I'm thinking about Martin's recent interview where he confirmed that he does use symbolism and foreshadowing in his books quite a bit but said it is our job to figure that out. I combine that with his other comments on how he has written this series to require re-reads and I strongly believe that the type of analysis in this thread is just what Martin was getting at. It doesn't mean we are right all the time or correctly interpreting all of it, but the degree of analysis we are doing speaks to the complexity of the work, I think.

And it's fun - like a treasure hunt! It makes reading and re-reading the books that much more rewarding. It's also made me remember a few more myths and fairy tales that I had forgotten. One in particular referring to Sansa's relationship with Petyr, which I will wait until the discussion concerning him.

My theory is that this dream of Bran's has not yet taken place. It will be in the Riverlands, not in the Vale. If we are correct that these are Jaime and Sandor, I see the story arcs coming together by getting Sansa out of the Vale rather than bringing more characters in to the Vale. At least I hope so.

I hope so, too! Sansa is too isolated in the Vale, and she doesn't feel at home there. I recall that she thought that the "singers" say that the Vale of Arryn is beautiful. Sansa doesn't really find it that beautiful, and it shows again how far she's come from her adoration of all things singer-related in GoT.

The Riverlands are centrally located, they were the sites of the key battles in the storyline, and Sansa has more family connections there. I know that Emmon Frey and Genna Lanister now occupy Riverrun and Edmure is attainted, but for how long will that last, especially with the BwB on the loose, Wyman Manderly out for revenge, and all of Westeros hating the Frey's (and more and more the Lannisters') guts?

Two possibilities are open here: One, Edmure dies without a living child (Roslin is pregnant but she's far from guaranteed to deliver a live baby), the Blackfish is an older bachelor, and Sansa is next in line to inherit Riverrun (If Rickon is alive he'd get Winterfell before Riverrun). Or, and this is in keeping with her Mother role, Edmure lives, Roslin delivers a live child but dies or has to flee or doesn't want her baby raised by her awful family and Sansa steps in, becoming surrogate Mother to another child not biologically hers. (I had a vision of her flopped on a velvet couch, with Rickon and Sweetrobin and Edmure's kid making a ruckus, and saying "What I wouldn't give for a week's vacation on the Quiet Isle..". :) )

Brienne is of course looking for her in the Riverlands, not the Vale. And UnCat is also in the Riverlands; I wonder what will happen if/when Sansa meets her. /shudder And I checked out the location of the Quiet Isle on the Wiki map and it's quite close to the Riverlands/Vale border (not right on it but close enough for Sansa to run into it quite fast if she leaves the Vale for the Riverlands).

The Riverlands has been torn apart by the war and someone with Sansa's compassion and "people skills" would be just the person to unite the Riverlands to begin the repairing process (and get rid of Freys, which I think will be bloody, but I don't see Sansa personally killing a Frey. Alas.)

Great analysis Queen of Winter, a lot of food for thought indeed. The quote above brought up the thought that Sandor may be able to overcome his fear for fire; conquering your fears is one of the biggest accomplishments somebody can achieve in the process of mental growth. Perhaps Sandor will let his fear for fire aside on a time when it's crucial that his help is required? Another sack or battle where fire is involved and where he has to come to the rescue? (Slightly offtopic: this thought was fueled by the story of Batman, who was afraid of bats as a little kid but eventually chose the bat as to symbolize that he had conquered his fear for them)

Sansa is someone - maybe the only someone - who could induce Sandor to overcome his fear of fire. Sandor couldn't do his Kingsguard duty out of fear of fire, but I think loyalty and love to the only person (aside from maybe his mother and sister) to treat Sandor like a human being will be the force that will galvanize him to face that fear and overcome it. I think Sandor would go through fire for Sansa. He's been "monster" or "dog" to just about everyone in his life. I think Elder Brother will treat him as human and that will enable him to accept Sansa's love (or friendship, be that as it may), because the caring compassion of a monk isn't going to inspire a whole mess of roiling hormones complicating things. :) The kind of love that Sansa offers is connected with her Motherly nature. "I see you. I validate you. Scars and all, you are still a person with a soul." This is the redemptive arc of Beauty and the Beast (and GRRM was a writer on that show) "I love you for what you are and not what you look like," which ties in with Sansa's arc of agency - the wisdom to look below the surface.

Sandor's bloody Kingsguard cloak does have certain symbolic associations with a weirwood tree, and Sansa hiding it "beneath her summer silks" could be seen as her basically using it as a weirwood-substitute (rather like what Jon does with Ghost, his walking weirwood tree); not to mention, we know Sansa has used dogs in the past as "surrogates" for her lost direwolf, so the idea of an ash tree as a surrogate for a weirwood would dovetail with the idea of the Hound/dogs as a surrogate for Sansa's lost direwolf.

I wonder if she will ever get that cloak back. It has multiple layers of meaning to her - a wedding cloak, a weirwood substitute - and if she doesn't get it back does that mean she will have to carry that cloak in her heart, knowing that she can hold the symbolic meaning beyond the material manifestation? We know she could feel her connection with the Old Gods and the idea of a godswood even in the Eyrie where the stony soil would not allow a godswood to grow (another reason she needs to GTFO of the Vale...).

I agree with her substitution of dogs with Lady; it's all over the place (and it's been extensively discussed). There was also the black dog running up to sniff Joffrey's corpse after the Purple Wedding. I wonder if that was connected to Sansa, Sandor (whose sigil has three black dogs) or both?

Here's a crackpot (I seem to have been smoking a lot of crack lately! :D ) Ramsay Bolton is very attached to his "girls." If Sansa learns about Jeyne Poole, or doesn't know the fakery and thinks that Ramsay tortured Arya - will she warg into his lead dog and have them rip him to shreds? The idea that Ramsay Bolton will live out the legend of Diana and Actaeon http://en.wikipedia....ana_and_Actaeon where the goddess Diana transforms Actaeon into a deer and his own hounds tear him to shreds. Ramsay hunts women for sport, with his dogs...to see him become the prey would be very satisfying.

[Queen of Winter]

Yes, I'm curious if any of the crackpots will be proven correct or not too, especially those that have come out of these threads. As you say, my post was an attempt to brainstorm and guess what other roles Sansa might play. I tend to think of her current situation as the personal. So, I wanted to look at the broader theories about the Others and larger Westeros politics and make some guesses one what role Sansa could play. I'm not a fan of the idea that Sansa will marry HtH and then rule the Vale with/through him. I think she is more important to the story than that.

I totally agree with you. I think the Harry the Heir thing is a ruse and it's not going to happen.

I also agree with you that we will see history repeat itself. Towards the end of the last thread, we had talked about Westeros as a broken world, how nothing seemed to work right. It was a place that is off balance and needs to be righted. Even though the story itself did not start with Robert's Rebellion, I feel as if the story was put in place by it. In order, to fix Westeros, I think the story will need to go back to the beginning, go back to where the problem started. In this way, I can see the return to the Riverlands marking the point where Westeros is finally in the position to be able to put itself back in to a balance.

Well said. Roberts Rebellion was a catalyst for what came after. And you're right when you state everything is out of kilter. It's going to be a bumpy and exciting ride!

I think there is a good chance Dany will not survive the series. I see her as a form of needed chaos, a way to bring the dramatic social and political chance that is desperately needed. To me, the role Dany played in Mereen is misunderstood at times. To me, it wasn't merely to show her as someone not able to rule as I believe she is much more important than that. Those who believe that she is merely a bad ruler are missing what really happened to her. To me, I saw the world bending and moving around her. She's a presence that doesn't merely inspire change, but demands and forces it. I don't know if she'll need to be a queen in Westeros to do this or not though. Maybe the dragons will be enough? :)

I'll admit, Dany isn't my most favorite character. I do agree with you that she is a vehicle for social and political upheaval. I think her heart is in the right place but sometimes Dany worries me.

I wonder if the tree being divided like that could also symolize that it was not yet time for Jane and Rochester to be together?

Yes, I think so. The actual "whole" tree could symbolize them both. The tree splitting, meaning not only that they could not be together at that point in time, but that even though they are "split" or apart from each other that they are still essentially two parts of a whole. (i.e. individual parts of a whole).

Sandor and Sansa need to realize they are greater than the sum of their parts. :rolleyes:

The truth about his first wife was revealed at their wedding and she ran away shortly after. It's like Sansa and Sandor. In Jane's case, she knew they could not yet be together. With Sansa, she could not go with him, in part (at least I like to think of it this way), for the same reason. If we look at the lightning as a form of fire, it adds to the imagery too. Then, Rochester lost his sight during a fire. Compare that to Sandor, he had to leave during the BBW as "green fire filled the sky". Could it be that something related to fire will bring them back together again?

Nice! It could. (Maybe something dragonish???) :huh:

We've never had a standalone QitN (Queen in the North). The upcoming novella with the she-wolves will hopefully be very revealing but they were widows.

This is "The She-Wolves of Winterfell" right?

I could see Sansa going the Queen route with a paramour as I think there is foreshadowing for this path rather than a traditional marriage.

Yes, me too! When I do think of her as a Queen I cannot think of her being a Queen in any other way. :)

Have you seen bgona's post on this song as it relates to the two of them? I tracked it down via tumblr for you to take a look: http://bgona.tumblr....m-a-sansan-view She draws some great parallels between these two and the song.

Damn, everyone is all over the net! :laugh: Thank you! No, I've not seen this before, so I need to read it (and where has bgona been? Haven't seen her here...) Does this mean I'm not nuts for mentioning the song? :P

We have done some (crackpot) theories on whether she has warged him or not so this fits nicely. I also see at as an extension of her empath skills. I think of all the people she has come in to contact with, the empath skill has been seen most strongly with Sandor. So, perhaps her putting the cloak on is a way to slide into his skin and deepen that connnection?

I think there's a chance it could be. I feel she subconsciously does it for the comfort factor, because it will make it seem like he's "there with her".

Can you expalin this a bit? I read the first book in the 6th grade and have had no desire to pick the series up since. Is the debacle because she chose "shallow" things which meant she could no longer return to Narnia? That is my understanding based upon what you and tze wrote.

I didn't read all the books either (and it was a looong time ago too), but I think what it boils down to is that in order to stay in Narnia, one must maintain some kind of childlike "innocence" or maybe have the wonder of a child. Susan "grew up"--she moved on to other things, and thus could not return to Narnia.

[Queen of Winter]

Sorry about that KRBD, I didn't see your post until I put my last one up. :(

. And below there is a parallel made between Queen Elizabeth I and Sansa - Elizabeth developed her noted "Game of Thrones" skills of cunning and manipulation through a very, very difficult childhood and imprisonment by her half-sister.

I kind of likened Mary Queen of Scots to Margery Tyrell.

And I've already noted, there is a change in the Westerosi air with regard to gender roles and ruling. I'm not going to go back and name all the heiresses and potential heiresses we've met but suffice it to say that a good portion of the major houses of Westeros might be ruled by women by the time the series ends. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out - they are used to it in Dorne, but how about the rest of the country? I think that Westeros wlll be the better of it. I see GRRM as showing us how patriarchy is a bad thing. I also wonder if the Dornish idea of paramourship will become more widespread. I've been beating the drum for Sansa to have a paramour or two (and Kittykatknits has too!); it just might be the ideal solution for a woman to be able to rule without a "lord husband" and yet be able to have sex and children and an acknowledged relationship. Oberyn Martell treated Ellaria Sand like his wife, and the Sand Snakes like trueborn daughters - even if their mothers were no longer in the picture. And Arianne, the Martell heiress, is very close with her "bastard" cousins. I just love the scene in ADWD where Arianne and her cousins all recite the Martell family motto together and hug and kiss. .

I'm not sure how the remainder of Westeros is going to react to a Queenship. I think they might fight it kicking and screaming, but also think after the Final Battle, that most people will be grateful to have come out the other side of it--so they might welcome the change.

I would like to see the two sisters learn to rule together. The oft-quoted "when winter comes the lone wolf dies but the pack survives" suggests to me that the sisters need to reconcile and use their differences to work together wisely for the good of the realm. I think each has the strengths that can compliment the other - and that they are more alike than they think, two sides of the same coin.

I agree 100%.

And it's fun - like a treasure hunt! It makes reading and re-reading the books that much more rewarding. It's also made me remember a few more myths and fairy tales that I had forgotten. One in particular referring to Sansa's relationship with Petyr, which I will wait until the discussion concerning him.

OT: there's a separate Petyr thread too?

The Riverlands are centrally located, they were the sites of the key battles in the storyline, and Sansa has more family connections there. I know that Emmon Frey and Genna Lanister now occupy Riverrun and Edmure is attainted, but for how long will that last, especially with the BwB on the loose, Wyman Manderly out for revenge, and all of Westeros hating the Frey's (and more and more the Lannisters') guts?

Brienne is of course looking for her in the Riverlands, not the Vale. And UnCat is also in the Riverlands; I wonder what will happen if/when Sansa meets her. /shudder And I checked out the location of the Quiet Isle on the Wiki map and it's quite close to the Riverlands/Vale border (not right on it but close enough for Sansa to run into it quite fast if she leaves the Vale for the Riverlands).

The Riverlands has been torn apart by the war and someone with Sansa's compassion and "people skills" would be just the person to unite the Riverlands to begin the repairing process (and get rid of Freys, which I think will be bloody, but I don't see Sansa personally killing a Frey. Alas.)

The Riverlands are one hot mess right now, that's for sure. It's going to get worse!

I wonder if she will ever get that cloak back. It has multiple layers of meaning to her - a wedding cloak, a weirwood substitute - and if she doesn't get it back does that mean she will have to carry that cloak in her heart, knowing that she can hold the symbolic meaning beyond the material manifestation? We know she could feel her connection with the Old Gods and the idea of a godswood even in the Eyrie where the stony soil would not allow a godswood to grow (another reason she needs to GTFO of the Vale...).

I find it interesting though that ven though Sansa has gone the the Godswood before, that she's said she preferred her mother's devotion to the Seven.

I agree with her substitution of dogs with Lady; it's all over the place (and it's been extensively discussed). There was also the black dog running up to sniff Joffrey's corpse after the Purple Wedding. I wonder if that was connected to Sansa, Sandor (whose sigil has three black dogs) or both?

I'm not sure Sandor knew about Joff's death (but maybe it could be) :

Polliver: “King Joffrey’s dead, you know,” he added. “Poisoned at his own wedding feast.”

“So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard.” The Hound gave a snort of contempt. “Who killed him?”

Here's a crackpot (I seem to have been smoking a lot of crack lately! :D ) Ramsay Bolton is very attached to his "girls." If Sansa learns about Jeyne Poole, or doesn't know the fakery and thinks that Ramsay tortured Arya - will she warg into his lead dog and have them rip him to shreds? The idea that Ramsay Bolton will live out the legend of Diana and Actaeon http://en.wikipedia....ana_and_Actaeon where the goddess Diana transforms Actaeon into a deer and his own hounds tear him to shreds. Ramsay hunts women for sport, with his dogs...to see him become the prey would be very satisfying.

Oh that's rich! It would be a justified and fitting end! :lol: :lol:

[Elba the Intoner]

{snip}

On the subject of duality you and I talked about, also I want to briefly visit Jane Eyre. Remember when Rochester told Jane he wanted to marry her, it was raining and he asked her beneath a large horse-chestnut tree? After he proposed to her, and sometime during the night the tree was struck by lightening and was split in half. ;)

{snip}

I wonder if the tree being divided like that could also symolize that it was not yet time for Jane and Rochester to be together? The truth about his first wife was revealed at their wedding and she ran away shortly after. It's like Sansa and Sandor. In Jane's case, she knew they could not yet be together. With Sansa, she could not go with him, in part (at least I like to think of it this way), for the same reason. If we look at the lightning as a form of fire, it adds to the imagery too. Then, Rochester lost his sight during a fire. Compare that to Sandor, he had to leave during the BBW as "green fire filled the sky". Could it be that something related to fire will bring them back together again?

Yes, I think so. The actual "whole" tree could symbolize them both. The tree splitting, meaning not only that they could not be together at that point in time, but that even though they are "split" or apart from each other that they are still essentially two parts of a whole. (i.e. individual parts of a whole).

Sandor and Sansa need to realize they are greater than the sum of their parts. :rolleyes:

Ok you guys discussing the tree splitting scene from Jane Eyre really brought back memories of a paper I wrote in college. I was an English Lit major with a concentration in 19th century British novels and I wrote this paper on proposals in Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice. I specifically remember writing about the symbolism of the tree that Rochester proposes to Jane under and then that night it gets split apart by lightening and how that forshadows their coming split. I like the symbolism you both mentioned here that it shows they were not meant to be together at that time. But later, after Jane leaves Rochester and then returns to him after the fire, there is a second proposal which has the favorable outcome of them getting together in the end.

Pride and Prejudice does not fit in as much with ASOIAF as Jane Eyre does, but there are also two proposals between Darcy and Elizabeth. In the first proposal things don't go so well for Darcy and it's not really that nice of a proposal as he basically says to Elizabeth that I can't stand your family and I tried to forget about you but I can't but will you marry me anyway? I mean, way to go Darcy! I guess it's nice that he can't get Elizabeth out of his mind but really the way he disses on her family is pretty low. Later after a lot of new circumstances unfold and Darcy redeems himself to an extent by helping Elizabeth's family, we get the second proposal that ends happily.

So, I just had a realization about all this that relates back to Sansa and Sandor. We've talked a lot about the cloak exchange the night of the Battle of the Blackwater and how that scenario does play out like a wedding with Sansa accepting Sandor's cloak, how the white cloak with blood stains represents the white sheet that is held up to show the marriage has been consumated, etc. But has it ever been mentioned that when Sandor comes to Sansa's room to offer to take her away and escape, that this very much comes off as a proposal? He doesn't forcibly take her away, he asks her, saying "You could come with me...." It could be seen as a proposal of elopement in a way followed by the parallels to Jane Eyre and P&P that the first proposal doesn't go so well and the girl doesn't go with the guy the first time around though we know they are meant to be together. Hopefully, this will lead to a second "proposal" after everything goes down and the story starts to wrap up where they will end up together in the end.

[Queen of Winter]

Elba I love this post! :love:

Ok you guys discussing the tree splitting scene from Jane Eyre really brought back memories of a paper I wrote in college. I was an English Lit major with a concentration in 19th century British novels and I wrote this paper on proposals in Jane Eyre and Pride and Prejudice. I specifically remember writing about the symbolism of the tree that Rochester proposes to Jane under and then that night it gets split apart by lightening and how that forshadows their coming split. I like the symbolism you both mentioned here that it shows they were not meant to be together at that time. But later, after Jane leaves Rochester and then returns to him after the fire, there is a second proposal which has the favorable outcome of them getting together in the end.

Pride and Prejudice does not fit in as much with ASOIAF as Jane Eyre does, but there are also two proposals between Darcy and Elizabeth. In the first proposal things don't go so well for Darcy and it's not really that nice of a proposal as he basically says to Elizabeth that I can't stand your family and I tried to forget about you but I can't but will you marry me anyway? I mean, way to go Darcy! I guess it's nice that he can't get Elizabeth out of his mind but really the way he disses on her family is pretty low. Later after a lot of new circumstances unfold and Darcy redeems himself to an extent by helping Elizabeth's family, we get the second proposal that ends happily.

So, I just had a realization about all this that relates back to Sansa and Sandor. We've talked a lot about the cloak exchange the night of the Battle of the Blackwater and how that scenario does play out like a wedding with Sansa accepting Sandor's cloak, how the white cloak with blood stains represents the white sheet that is held up to show the marriage has been consumated, etc. But has it ever been mentioned that when Sandor comes to Sansa's room to offer to take her away and escape, that this very much comes off as a proposal? He doesn't forcibly take her away, he asks her, saying "You could come with me...." It could be seen as a proposal of elopement in a way followed by the parallels to Jane Eyre and P&P that the first proposal doesn't go so well and the girl doesn't go with the guy the first time around though we know they are meant to be together. Hopefully, this will lead to a second "proposal" after everything goes down and the story starts to wrap up where they will end up together in the end.

I love the cloak reference! Do you also remember how after they tried to get married, how Rochester said they could flee to France, to live as brother and sister? (Yeah right!) :o :rolleyes:

(Crackpot--Sandor might now be considered a "brother" of the Faith, don't tell me Sansa will become a Silent Sister! :laugh:. If Sandor stayed a "brother", they couldn't be married. Rochester tells Jane the same thing, they can live together, but they can't be married. )

EDIT: So maybe it foreshadows that whole idea Sansa possibly staying "Alayne" and living out her life with someone of her choosing ,etc, that we've touched upon here a few times.

[Caro99]

Just wanted to say that i love the things that have been mentioned here today, and Elba, great job on finding some similarties between Darcy & Sandor! :thumbsup: and everyone can see and agree that sandor messed up his first proposal (with the whole drinking issue and taking the knife out) just as Darcy did with his, but oh that bit where you said this: "Hopefully, this will lead to a second "proposal" after everything goes down and the story starts to wrap up where they will end up together in the end."

hope i hope this comes true <3. & btw, freat job guys, i can't comment more on it right now, but some of the things that have been brought today were great, like the Narnia comparison and the bigger role Sansa could have with the war against the others, and how things might be resolved in the riverlands, and i agree that Sansa as queen having a paramour like in Dorne sounds nice! :)

[Elba the Intoner]

Thanks QOW and Caro! QOW I had forgotten that Rochester suggests he and Jane run off together and not be married. That would not have worked out any better than Sansa and Sandor running off together. It was just not the right time for either couple.

About the Narnia references, coincidentally I just happened to pick up The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe two days ago and started reading it. I'd never read it before and saw it in my daughter's room so picked it up. Now I know some things to look for as I read it so thanks.

Also, I see the good old pomegranate keeps popping up in this discussion. Just as an fyi, I thought I'd mention that the pomegranate has meaning in Hebrew tradition too. It is considered to be the fruit that the scouts brought back to Moses to demonstrate the fertility of the promised land. The land of Israel is praised for its pomegranates. It is eaten on the second night of Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish new year which is coming up in a few weeks, because on the second night one should eat a new fruit. The pomegranate comes into season around this time and is therefore considered a new fruit. Also, it is thought to have 613 seeds just as there are 613 mitzvot (good deeds) written in the Torah, therefore it serves as a reminder of the good deeds one should do throughout the year.

[Christina Ceriddwynn]

OK so I am finally *whew* caught up with all the posts....

I even watched Jane Eyre the other day!

Personally, I think the "dark as ash" bit is being overthought as it has been said in the books that Sandor's armor is dark grey.....basically the color of ash (burnt ash not a tree)

Otherwise, whether I agree or not, some nice posts.

Me, I think Mr Clegane will pop up again.....it wouldn't surprise me if Sansa is brought to the QI by Brienne at some point as Brienne knows its a "safe haven".

This alone could be the catalyst to bring him back into the picture. There has to be a reason why Brienne was introduced to it., other than providing us with information. I think Brienne will be back....perhaps with company.

She is, after all, still looking for Sansa

[The Mother of The Others]

Sansa's plot arc has basically been the inverse of Susan---Sansa starts out obsessed with romance and material things, then she progresses into a more mature figure more heavily associated with her siblings and more wholly associated with the aspects of a 'true' Queen.

If you asked me "Who has a commitment to excellence?" I'd answer: the NFL Raiders football franchise, .....and tze. But the Raiders are laughable, whereas tze tends to deliver with great regularity.

On the 'true queen' subject-- Back before Sansa chat became a fulltime occupation, one of my stray random thoughts about the character was that she was a great queen-in-waiting because all of the quiet suffering will have forever humanized her, so there'd never be that danger of her drifting into the uncaring zone occupied by rulers who've lost touch with the commoners. She's a potential Princess Di type favorite of the people. But at present she's not showing anyone that upside, except for us readers. There's no outward signal that would make other characters notice. Obviously, that's because she's in hiding. But, hiding or not, she's not winning over any fans in Westeros itself, and that needs to change. Or else when she turns against Petyr.....nobody will come to support her and she'll get crushed. So at some point there's going to have to be a polarity shift. Sansa's going to have to become much more outgoing instead of always having this inward-turned pain thing. Some big event could permanently flip that switch, like if she has to go public and make a go of it. Some kind of hit-the-ground-and-keep-running transformative moment that brings her out of her shell from then on. Then, then her deep understanding of pain will bond her with the people and she'll be that 'true' queen who tirelessly endeavors to lessen the suffering of her charges. Someone who understands them and feels for them better than 95% of rulers.

Oh, and DON'T judge the Narnia series by those horrible horrible movies that just have no emotional pull whatsoever. The books were wonderful by comparison. My theory for where the movies went wrong is 1) crappy child actors 2) Disney? 3) whereas Lord of the Rings made you feel it & then added in special effects, the Narnia series hasn't managed to pull that off and just ends up being a bunch of visual effects that feels hollow.

[Valkyrja]

Just catching up on the threads after a busy couple of days. Crackpot or not, these are fascinating thoughts as usual, everyone! :)

Going along with the Jane Eyre discussion, especially in regards to the chestnut tree, I thought I would offer here a passage from the novel:

“It was not without a certain wild pleasure I ran before the wind, delivering my trouble of mind to the measureless air-torrent thundering through space. Descending the laurel walk, I faced the wreck of a chestnut-tree; it stood up, black and riven: the trunk, split down the centre, gasped ghastly. The cloven halves were not broken from each other, for the firm base and strong roots kept them unsundered below; through community of vitality was destroyed -- the sap could flow no more: their great boughs on each side were dead, and next winter's tempests would be sure to fell one or both to earth: as yet, however, they might be said to form one tree -- a ruin, but an entire ruin.

'You did right to hold fast to each other,' I said: as if the monster-splinters were living things, and could hear me. 'I think, scathed as you look, and charred and scorched, there must be a little sense of life in you yet, rising out of that adhesion at the faithful, honest roots: you will never have green leaves more -- never more see birds making nests and singing idylls in your boughs; the time of pleasure and love is over with you; but you are not desolate: each of you has a comrade to sympathize with him in his decay.' As I looked up at them, the moon appeared momentarily in that part of the sky which filled their fissure; her disc was blood-red and half overcast; she seemed to throw on me one bewildered, dreary glance, and buried herself again instantly in the deep drift of cloud. The wind fell, for a second, round Thornfield; but far away over wood and water poured a wild, melancholy wail: it was sad to listen to, and I ran off again.”

- Charlotte Brontë, Jane Eyre

Note that even though the tree is cloven in half and seems dead, it is still attached at the roots-- "A ruin, but an entire ruin". The passage even contains a bit of ASoIaF and Sansa -esque imagery: the tree itself, the birds in its boughs singing no more, winter tempests, and a wail (howl?) on the wind.... :)

*edited for spelling

[Elba the Intoner]

Man, I need to do a Jane Eyre reread! Just because it's such a great book and it's been a while.

[Lyanna Stark]

So, I just had a realization about all this that relates back to Sansa and Sandor. We've talked a lot about the cloak exchange the night of the Battle of the Blackwater and how that scenario does play out like a wedding with Sansa accepting Sandor's cloak, how the white cloak with blood stains represents the white sheet that is held up to show the marriage has been consumated, etc. But has it ever been mentioned that when Sandor comes to Sansa's room to offer to take her away and escape, that this very much comes off as a proposal? He doesn't forcibly take her away, he asks her, saying "You could come with me...." It could be seen as a proposal of elopement in a way followed by the parallels to Jane Eyre and P&P that the first proposal doesn't go so well and the girl doesn't go with the guy the first time around though we know they are meant to be together. Hopefully, this will lead to a second "proposal" after everything goes down and the story starts to wrap up where they will end up together in the end.

You're not the only one who picked up on those connotations. I think brashcandy wrote something about it in one of the earlier Rethinking threads (time to go through them and dig out the previous resources again, I think).

Re Narnia,

I have to be a bit of a downer here and say I'm not convinced about the similarites with Narnia, in part because Narnia is a very religious work. It stands and falls with the strong ties to Christianity and Aslan as the crucified Jesus on the Stone table. Aslan is not in opposition to the White Queen so much as he is a symbol of divinity on earth and of hope. When Aslan was sacrificed on the stone table, it's a direct parallel to the crucifiction of Christ. The White Queen is also almost literally, Lillith, who does not follow God's will. It's more apparent in the first novel, where she eats the Fruit of Everlasting life in the equivalent of "paradise" and then moves to the north to become an even more powerful sorceress. Overall, CS Lewis has some troublesome views on women and power. The reason the White Witch is initially condemned is because she sought power.

Aslan, "the lion faction", also doesn't rule. He is just a symbol of God, while the ruling is lain on his supplicants, the humans.

You also have Aslan breathing life into people, while the White Witch turns them into stone. If we accept the Lion vs Winter in this scenario, then one faction definitely stands for life/spring, and another for death/winter. The White witch has nothing to do with change: in fact she resists change and wants it to be forever winter, but never Christmas. Neither the Lannisters nor the Starks are resisting the flow of the seasons. The Starks may have a specific position related to winter, but they dont want it to never be summer. Nor are the Lannisters aligned with spring/summer in any particular way.

Susan is not allowed back into Narnia because she has lost her imagination and grown up (and has started to use make up and stuff).

Sure, there are some parallells to be drawn, but due to the nature of Narnia with its very strong religious ties, I think they end up being on the superficial end in the Lion vs Winter, which is the conflict only on a very superficial level in Narnia.