Question: Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage and other decisions

[David Selig]

Well, it wouldn't do to blame a male character when there's a woman available, right?

The one who started the war is Tywin, and this is perfectly clear.

[ab aeterno]

Well, it wouldn't do to blame a male character when there's a woman available, right?

The one who started the war is Tywin, and this is perfectly clear.

I don't know, I think you can almost justify Tywin's reaction considering that Cat just kidnapped his son, purely because someone she hadn't seen in fifteen years told her so... She wasn't the cause of the war, but her actions were the spark which ignited the tinderbox.

[Daena the Defiant]

I don't know, I think you can almost justify Tywin's reaction considering that Cat just kidnapped his son, purely because someone she hadn't seen in fifteen years told her so... She wasn't the cause of the war, but her actions were the spark which ignited the tinderbox.

You can almost justify starting a secret terroristic campaign against innocent smallfolk because Catelyn publicly arrested Tyrion in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son?

Really?

Tywin would be justified in making a petition for his return, investing the road to Winterfell with armed men or interdicting Tully/Stark officials on official duty. Tywin would justified in camping out at the foot of Riverrun or taking a highborn hostage in turn as that is common practice.

I can't fathom how justifiable it is to begin to slaughter and rape scads of innocent commoners - while making sure that you hide all indicia of house allegiance - because a member of your family was arrested.

[David Selig]

No, I wouldn't say it's "almost justified". First, starting a war because of the arrest of one man (even if innocent), son or not, is an absolute travesty for me. Second, Tywin had no idea and didn't give a damn whether Tyrion was guilty or how much evidence there was against him.

[Jolene Brown]

You can almost justify starting a secret terroristic campaign against innocent smallfolk because Catelyn publicly arrested Tyrion in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son?

Really?

Tywin would be justified in making a petition for his return, investing the road to Winterfell with armed men or interdicting Tully/Stark officials on official duty. Tywin would justified in camping out at the foot of Riverrun or taking a highborn hostage in turn as that is common practice.

I can't fathom how justifiable it is to begin to slaughter and rape scads of innocent commoners - while making sure that you hide all indicia of house allegiance - because a member of your family was arrested.

If she publicly arrested him in the name of the king, why didn't she take him to King's Landing instead of to the Vale to be murdered? Come on - even after he won the trial, the clear intent was that he would die on the High Road. And let's not forget that he WAS innocent of any wrong-doing whatsoever and that Catelyn got several innocent people killed on that fool's errand journey there.

[E-Ro]

You can blame so many different people for this war really. And its a combination of all these people, no one person has all the blame.

Ned

Littlefinger

Jaime

Cercei

Bran

Robert

Stannis

Varys

Tywin

Joff

Cat

[ab aeterno]

NO, I wouldn't say it's "almost justified". First, starting a war because of the arrest of one man (even if innocent), son or not, is an absolute travesty for me. Second, Tywin had no idea and didn' give a damn whether Tyrion was guilty or how much evidence there was against him.

Wars have been started for much less throughout history. It is easy to moralize about it, but none of these high lords care that they're causing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. Kidnapping Tyrion is an act of war as far as people in Westeros would be concerned, even King Robert basically admitted that. Tywin may not have cared but that doesn't change the fact that Catelyn comitted an act of war.

[ab aeterno]

You can blame so many different people for this war really. And its a combination of all these people, no one person has all the blame.

Ned

Littlefinger

Jaime

Cercei

Bran

Robert

Stannis

Varys

Tywin

Joff

Cat

Agreed. She's not the sole cause, but she did spark the conflict.

[E-Ro]

Oh, and for the record. If im the lord of a house and its medival times and you kidnap a member of my family, you had better be ready for a war.

You cant let anyone make you look weak, tywin explains this very well to jaime.

[Jolene Brown]

Wars have been started for much less throughout history. It is easy to moralize about it, but none of these high lords care that they're causing the deaths of tens of thousands of innocent people. Kidnapping Tyrion is an act of war as far as people in Westeros would be concerned, even King Robert basically admitted that. Tywin may not have cared but that doesn't change the fact that Catelyn comitted an act of war.

It's also basically the exact same thing Robb does - he raises the banners when Ned is taken into custody not because of what's happening in the Riverlands. He goes South to get Ned back, just like Tywin makes war to get Tyrion back.

[ab aeterno]

You can almost justify starting a secret terroristic campaign against innocent smallfolk because Catelyn publicly arrested Tyrion in the name of the king for the attempted murder of her son?

Really?

Tywin would be justified in making a petition for his return, investing the road to Winterfell with armed men or interdicting Tully/Stark officials on official duty. Tywin would justified in camping out at the foot of Riverrun or taking a highborn hostage in turn as that is common practice.

I can't fathom how justifiable it is to begin to slaughter and rape scads of innocent commoners - while making sure that you hide all indicia of house allegiance - because a member of your family was arrested.

Catelyn is the wife of a rival lord, not a cop. She didn't arrest him, she didn't have any evidence, she seized him at sword point. She never said "arrest this man in the name of King Robert," she said essentially "arrest this man for the love you bear my father." I'm not saying that killing innocents is ever justified, but all wars involve killing innocents. Also, early on at least, Tywin doesn't have innocents killed, he has the lands burned and the holdfasts sacked. I'm not saying what he did is right, but Catelyn comitted what could fairly be construed as an act of war against his House. It would be somewhat like Britain seizing the French Prime Minister.

It's also basically the exact same thing Robb does - he raises the banners when Ned is taken into custody not because of what's happening in the Riverlands. He goes South to get Ned back, just like Tywin makes war to get Tyrion back.

Yep, I agree completely.

[ab aeterno]

Edit: Double post.

[Daena the Defiant]

If she publicly arrested him in the name of the king, why didn't she take him to King's Landing instead of to the Vale to be murdered?

Re-read the chapter -she specifically arrested in the name of the king. In public.

"I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I had bedded here," she told the innkeep. She could hear the muttering, feel the eyes upon her. Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and swords and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears. "You in the corner," she said to an older man she had not noticed until now. "Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, ser?"

The man got to his feet. "It is, my lady."

"And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?"

"She is," the main replied stoutly.

Ser Rodrik rose quietly and loosened his sword in its scabbard. The dwarf was blinking at them, blank faced with puzzlement in his mismatched eyes.

"The red stallion was ever a welcome sight at Riverrun," she said to the trio by the fire. "My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen."

The three men-at-arms exchanged uncertain looks. "Our lord is honored by his trust," one them said hesitantly."

"I envy your father all these fine friends," Lannister quipped, "but I do note quite see the purpose of this, Lady Stark."

She ignored him, turning to the large party in blue and grey. They were the heart of the matter, there were more than twenty of them. " I know your sigil as well: the twin towers of Frey. How fares your good lord, sers?"

Their captain rose. "Lord Walder is well, my lady. He plans to take a new wife on his ninetieth name day and has asked your lord father to honor the wedding with his presence."

Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came into my house and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face.

Hmmm?

Come on - even after he won the trial, the clear intent was that he would die on the High Road. And let's not forget that he WAS innocent of any wrong-doing whatsoever and that Catelyn got several innocent people killed on that fool's errand journey there.

Come on, yourself.

That's not the clear intent. She took Tyrion to the Eyrie because it was the closest safe haven. Recall that she cobbled together a posse comitatus of her father's armigers to arrest Tyrion: she didn't have an honor guard or full escort. the whole chapter mentions that even 'mighty Jon Arryn travelling in strength' couldn't brave the route north.

You have no basis whatsoevver for saying that her clear intent was for him to be either murdered in the Eyrie or die on the road

The crossroads gave her pause. If they turned west from here, it was an easy ride down to Riverrun. Her father had always given her wise counsel when she needed it most, and she yearned to talk to him, to warn him of the gathering storm. In Winterfell needed to brace for war, how much more so Riverrun so much closer to King's Landing, with the power of Casterly Rock looming to the west like a shadow. If her father had been stronger, she might have chanced it, but Hoster Tully had been bedridden these past two years, and Catelyn was loathe to tax him now.

The eastern road was wilder and more dangerous, climbing through the rocky foothills and thick forests of the Mountains of the Moon, past high passes and deep chasms to the Vale of Arryn and the stony Fingers beyond. Above the Vale, the Eyrie stood high and impregnable, its towers reaching for the sky. There she would find her sister ... and perhaps some of the answers Ned sought, Surely Lysa knew more than she dared put in her letter. She might have the very proof that Ned needed to bring the Lannisters to ruin, and if it came to war, they would need the Arryns and the eastern lords who owed them service.

Yet the mountain roads were perilous. Shadowcats prowled those passes, rock slides were common and the mountain clans were lawless brigands, descending from the heights to rob and kill and melting away like snow whenever the knights rode out from the Vale in search of them. Even Jon Arryn, as great a lord as the Eyrie had ever known, had always travelled in strength when he cross the mountains. Catelyn's only strength was one elderly knight, armored in loyalty.

No, she thought, Riverrun and the Eyrie would have to wait. Her path ran north to Winterfell, where her sons and her duty were waiting for her. As soon as they were safely past the Neck, she could declare herself to one of Ned's bannermen and send riders racing ahead with orders to mount a watch on the Kingsroad.

[....]

Catelyn knew them all: the Blackwoods and the Brackens, ever enemies whose quarrels her father was obliged to settle; Lady Whent, last of her line, who dwelt with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal; irascible Lord Frey, who had outlived seven wives and filled his twin castles with children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, and bastards and grandbastards as well. All of them were sworn to the service of Riverrun. Catelyn wondered if that would be enough, if it came to war. Her father was the staunchest man who'd ever lived, and she had no doubt that he would call his banners.... but would those banners come? The Darrys and the Rygers and Mootons had sworn oaths to Riverrun as well, yet they'd fought with Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident, while Lord Walder Frey had arrived with his levies well after the battle was over, leaving some doubt as to which army he had planned to join (theirs, he had assured the victors solemnly in the aftermath, but ever after her father has called him the Late Lord Frey). It must not come to war, Catelyn thought fervently. They must not let it."

[Daena the Defiant]

Catelyn is the wife of a rival lord, not a cop. She didn't arrest him, she didn't have any evidence, she seized him at sword point. She never said "arrest this man in the name of King Robert,"

"I was still Catelyn Tully the last time I had bedded here," she told the innkeep. She could hear the muttering, feel the eyes upon her. Catelyn glanced around the room, at the faces of the knights and swords and took a deep breath to slow the frantic beating of her heart. Did she dare take the risk? There was no time to think it through, only the moment and the sound of her own voice ringing in her ears. "You in the corner," she said to an older man she had not noticed until now. "Is that the black bat of Harrenhal I see embroidered on your surcoat, ser?"

The man got to his feet. "It is, my lady."

"And is Lady Whent a true and honest friend to my father, Lord Hoster Tully of Riverrun?"

"She is," the main replied stoutly.

Ser Rodrik rose quietly and loosened his sword in its scabbard. The dwarf was blinking at them, blank faced with puzzlement in his mismatched eyes.

"The red stallion was ever a welcome sight at Riverrun," she said to the trio by the fire. "My father counts Jonos Bracken among his oldest and most loyal bannermen."

The three men-at-arms exchanged uncertain looks. "Our lord is honored by his trust," one them said hesitantly."

"I envy your father all these fine friends," Lannister quipped, "but I do note quite see the purpose of this, Lady Stark."

She ignored him, turning to the large party in blue and grey. They were the heart of the matter, there were more than twenty of them. " I know your sigil as well: the twin towers of Frey. How fares your good lord, sers?"

Their captain rose. "Lord Walder is well, my lady. He plans to take a new wife on his ninetieth name day and has asked your lord father to honor the wedding with his presence."

Tyrion Lannister sniggered. That was when Catelyn knew he was hers. "This man came into my house and there conspired to murder my son, a boy of seven," she proclaimed to the room at large, pointing. Ser Rodrik moved to her side, his sword in hand. "In the name of King Robert and the good lords you serve, I call upon you to seize him and help me return him to Winterfell to await the king's justice."

She did not know what was more satisfying: the sound of a dozen swords drawn as one or the look on Tyrion Lannister's face.

[David Selig]

If she publicly arrested him in the name of the king, why didn't she take him to King's Landing instead of to the Vale to be murdered? Come on - even after he won the trial, the clear intent was that he would die on the High Road. And let's not forget that he WAS innocent of any wrong-doing whatsoever and that Catelyn got several innocent people killed on that fool's errand journey there.

Why would Catelyn take Tyrion to the Vale to be murdered? This could've been done immediately after she captured him, after all. The whole trial and sending him off alone on the dangerous road were Lysa's idea.

And Tyrion clearly suspected Jaime and Cersei were responsible for crippling Bran, yet kept silent, so he wasn't that innocent.

I'm not saying that killing innocents is ever justified, but all wars involve killing innocents. Also, early on at least, Tywin doesn't have innocents killed, he has the lands burned and the holdfasts sacked.

Wrong. The main point of Gregor's raid was to commit as much atrocities as possible so to provoke the Tully and Ned to retaliate.Plenty of innocents were murdered.

"They burnt us out,” a farmer beside him said. “Come riding in the dark, up from the south, and fired the fields and the houses alike, killing them as tried to stop them. They weren’t no raiders, though, m’lord. They had no mind to steal our stock, not these, they butchered my milk cow where she stood and left her for the flies and the crows.”

“They rode down my ’prentice boy,” said a squat man with a smith’s muscles and a bandage around his head. He had put on his finest clothes to come to court, but his breeches were patched, his cloak travel-stained and dusty. “Chased him back and forth across the fields on their horses, poking at him with their lances like it was a game, them laughing and the boy stumbling and screaming till the big one pierced him clean through.”

The girl on her knees craned her head up at Ned, high above her on the throne. “They killed my mother too, Your Grace. And they … they …” Her voice trailed off, as if she had forgotten what she was about to say. She began to sob.

Ser Raymun Darry took up the tale. “At Wendish Town, the people sought shelter in their holdfast, but the walls were timbered. The raiders piled straw against the wood and burnt them all alive. When the Wendish folk opened their gates to flee the fire, they shot them down with arrows as they came running out, even women with suckling babes.”

[Daena the Defiant]

Also, early on at least, Tywin doesn't have innocents killed, he has the lands burned and the holdfasts sacked

So all the peasants who went to Kings Landing complaing about murders and rapes did it themselves?

[Jolene Brown]

She said she was going to take him to Winterfell too - she didn't do that, did she? So how does anything else she said have any credibility? She brought him to Lysa and did nothing when Lysa tried to set him up to die in the trial, and she did nothing when Lysa sent him off down the high road, again with the clear intent that he die. Those are her actions, and they are completely inconsistent with her caring about any kind of justice.

[lilenadheas]

It was Lysa's intent that Tyrion die on the Highroad, but she is a whole other kettle of fish

[ab aeterno]

Ok, chill, you didn't need to post the entire thing again, I'm perfectly capably of reading the post right above this one. I was wrong, I apologize. You really seem to go all in every time you disagree with something tbh...

[Daena the Defiant]

She said she was going to take him to Winterfell too - she didn't do that, did she? So how does anything else she said have any credibility? She brought him to Lysa and did nothing when Lysa tried to set him up to die in the trial, and she did nothing when Lysa sent him off down the high road, again with the clear intent that he die. Those are her actions, and they are completely inconsistent with her caring about any kind of justice.

Ummmm.... because they were attacked on the road and she needed a stronger escort?

Plus, she specifically misstated her destination as a way of throwing pursuers off the trail.

I am confused now - are you now denying that she made the arrest in public in the name of the king, or since the text proves you wrong, you are just saying that she didn't mean it?

I also presume you are choosing to forget that she protested when Lysa wanted to have the trial? And that after Tyrion was "exonerated" he was free to leave - what is your point again?

First she sucks because she took him into custody, now she sucks because she let the proven innocent man go free (with an armed escort, btw). Pick one and do try to remain conistent.

Come on.