Question: Catelyn taking Tyrion hostage and other decisions

[Daena the Defiant]

So she is arresting him in the name of the King but based on her authority as lady Regent of the North while she is physically in the Riverlands, not the North, and she then brings Tyrion to the completely unrelated region of the Vale where she then has no power to control anything that happens and therefore no responsibility for anything? If that is justice, then I am not for it. And if I am Tywin, I am far from convinced that it is anything but kidnapping.

You seem to be giving no leeway for the fact that the whole thing was improvised and was outpaced by the actions of insane people, both paranoid, delusionall Lysa and the sociopathic Tywin.

[lilenadheas]

But, quite simply, she knows that Lysa is biased.

And? There was no plan for a trial here. Catelyn was not bringing Tyrion to Lysa for judgement. She was bringing him to an allied castle to hold.

[AvengerofWinterfell]

Catelyn's acts may not have started the war, but its what ultimately drew the North into it conclusively. If not for her taking Tyrion hostage, Jamie wouldn't have had a seemingly legitimate reason for assaulting him in the street. Abducting Tyrion without proof on the word of a known schemer and liar such as Littlefinger was a foolish act based on a mothers emotion rather than logic. It put the Lions and Wolves at each others throats in such a manner that the relationship couldnt be repaired. Dont get me wrong, Cersei would have likely found a way to kill, or at least get rid of, Ned but it wouldnt have been blatant and therefore hard to go to war over.

[ab aeterno]

That's a purposeful misdirection on your part.

She didn't think that Lysa would go off the rails and try Tyrion hersellf for the murder of Jon arryn. She didn't think she was taking him to a fair venue for his trial - she was trying to get out of danger to an allied stronghold.

That's..... an interesting analogy. It holds oodlles and oodles of water.

I don't need to use misdirection. If you seize somebody for "justice" and then take them to somebody who a) is your sister and b ) believes that the person in question's family murdered her husband, that's pretty bad. If she just wanted to get out of danger she could have gone to Riverrun, or Harrenhal, or just about any castle. She went to the Eyrie becaus she knew her sister hated the Lannisters.

As for the latter part. They are not the same, but they are different degrees of the same thing. Negligence. Clegane is called Tywin Lannister's mad dog because Tywin let's him loose to cause carnage. He's not exactly one for following orders. Even if he were, in any war, sending you men out to fight is negligent in that you can't be sure of controlling them. That is a fact of war in Westeros, like rape during the sacking of cities.

[Jolene Brown]

You seem to be giving no leeway for the fact that the whole thing was improvised and was outpaced by the actions on insane people, both Lysa and the sociopathic Tywin.

She is an adult! She is responsible for her actions. She made it possible for Lysa to act insanely by not thinking through what she did. She is the one who brought Tyrion to Lysa! She shares in the responsibility for what happened next. It can't work both ways. She can't be justified in taking Tyrion as her hostage but then completely lack any responsibility for what actually happens to him as a consequence of that.

[ab aeterno]

And? There was no plan for a trial here. Catelyn was not bringing Tyrion to Lysa for judgement. She was bringing him to an allied castle to hold.

Ah, so she wasn't arresting him for a crime, she was kidnapping him to hold as a prisoner?

[Daena the Defiant]

It's basic reasoning, so I'm sorry if you can't follow.

It's really not. I assure you that if that's your basic reason, it's opaque, doesn't correlate with your premise and I'd ask you to do a better job of explaining it to a dullard like me.

She is not Lady Regent, she left Robb as Lord of Winterfell, at the moment she's just the Hand's wife.

Not true.

She doesn't specifically relinquish the rule of the north until after Ned is killed.

She also has direct testimony that Tyrion didn't do it. Tyrion tells her he didn't do it. That's evidence just as much. Cat's entire case is based upon: LF said so.

Littlefinger is a witness. What a witness says is testimony. Testimony is evidence.

The fact that WE know that Littlefinger is an evil mastermind doesn't mean that she should have any reason to discount the information provided to her by her childhood friend and trusted ranking minister of the crown.

To frame your argument for you, you are suggesting that she is foolish for crediting Petyr, her friend and minister of the crown and would have been more prudent to accept the denial of the man who is part of the family who murdered the Hand of the King, happened to be in her house when her son was chucked from a window and later is inculpated in the serious wounding of her own person and the attempted murder of her son?

Seriously - would it really raise your estimation of her if she listened to Tyrion and was like "oh, okay, my bad. So sorry."

[lilenadheas]

Catelyn's acts may not have started the war, but its what ultimately drew the North into it conclusively. If not for her taking Tyrion hostage, Jamie wouldn't have had a seemingly legitimate reason for assaulting him in the street. Abducting Tyrion without proof on the word of a known schemer and liar such as Littlefinger was a foolish act based on a mothers emotion rather than logic. It put the Lions and Wolves at each others throats in such a manner that the relationship couldnt be repaired. Dont get me wrong, Cersei would have likely found a way to kill, or at least get rid of, Ned but it wouldnt have been blatant and therefore hard to go to war over.

But Cersei had Ned arrested because he threatened to expose Joffrey's true parentage. That is why Robb drew his banners, not because of Tyrion.

[Daena the Defiant]

She is an adult! She is responsible for her actions. She made it possible for Lysa to act insanely by not thinking through what she did. She is the one who brought Tyrion to Lysa! She shares in the responsibility for what happened next. It can't work both ways. She can't be justified in taking Tyrion as her hostage but then completely lack any responsibility for what actually happens to him as a consequence of that.

Now your changing the argument - of course she is responsible for bringing him to the Eyrie. She did.

Generally speaking, rational people only lay blame on others when they do something stupid when it is obvious that it is stupid or there is a strong liklihood of something stupid happening. You really can't hold someone responsible for failing to be omniscient.

How should Catelyn have known that taking Tyrion to the safe haven of the Eyrie was going to result in him being put on trial (and later freed!) and then turned loose on the road?

[Jolene Brown]

Now your changing the argument - of course she is responsible for bringing him to the Eyrie. She did.

Generally speaking, rational people only lay blame on others when they do something stupid when it is obvious that it is stupid or there is a strong liklihood of something stupid happening. You really can't hold someone responsible for failing to be omniscient.

How should Catelyn have known that taking Tyrion to the safe haven of the Eyrie was going to result in him being put on trial (and later freed!) and then turned loose on the road?

I hold her responsible for failing to act in a way that is consistent with the idea that she was seeking justice by arresting Tyrion. And failing to act in a way that was consistent with ensuring, or even making it likely, that justice would be done. And failing to do much at all in response to the likelihood that Tyrion would be killed as a result of her actions.

[David Selig]

Actually, we hear about Robb's men pillaging the Westerlands, killing the prostitues who "lay with Lions," etc. The only difference is that Robb was in personal command of his forces. He didn't go to war to protect Riverrun, they had been under attack long before then. He went to war when Ned was arrested.

Actually the Tully were attacked in force after Ned was arrested. Gregor's raid was just a provocation.

Robb gathered his banners because Ned was arrested, sure, but his forces only go involved into he war after there was plenty of fighting and he had to defend an ally. He invaded the Westerlands later to draw Tywin away from the Riverlands and all the pillaging his forces was this was because of this and to "pay back for what the Lannister armies did in the Riverlands. His actions are still questionable for our modern morality, but less so than Tywin, who started the whole war and was the aggressor.

[ab aeterno]

It's really not. I assure you that if that's your basic reason, it's opaque, doesn't correlate with your premise and I'd ask you to do a better job of explaining it to a dullard like me.

Not true.

She doesn't specifically relinquish the rule of the north until after Ned is killed.

That's a witness. What a witness says is testimony. Testimony is evidence.

The fact that WE know that Littlefinger is an evil mastermind doesn't mean that she should have any reason to discount the information provided to her by her childhood friend and trusted ranking minister of the crown.

If you insist. Cat is biased against the Lannisters. Lysa is biased against the Lannisters. Cat knows this. Cat still takes Tyrion to Lysa. If Cat's reason for not taking Tyrion to King's Landing was because he wouldn't get a fair trial there due to it being a Lannister power base then it follows that she shouldn't take Tyrion to a Stark/Arryn power base where he is also not going to get a fair trial.

With regards to WF, I believe she tells Robb that he is lord of WF while she is away. Bran keeps commenting on how Robb is using his "Lord Robb" voice.

As for the testimony, Littlefinger isn't a witness, he just tells Cat that he gave Tyrion this knife, and Cat doesn't even question this.

[lilenadheas]

Ah, so she wasn't arresting him for a crime, she was kidnapping him to hold as a prisoner?

Well i've actually said it was both before, but that isn't what I'm saying here and you know it. You are blatantly misconstruing what I'm saying so I find it hard to argue in a rational and civil way.

Right, one more time. Brought Tyrion to safest place to hold him. The reader has no idea what the next step was, but it certainly wasn't to let Lysa put him on trial. But there would have been a trial. Just not by Lysa.

[ab aeterno]

Actually the Tully were attacked in force after Ned was arrested. Gregor's raid was just a provocation.

Robb gathered his banners because Ned was arrested, sure, but his forces only go involved into he war after there was plenty of fighting and he had to defend an ally. He invaded the Westerlands later to draw Tywin away from the Riverlands and all the pillaging his forces was this was because of this and to "pay back for what the Lannister armies did in the Riverlands. His actions are still questionable for our modern morality, but less so than Tywin, who started the whole war and was the aggressor.

Tywin was the aggressor but Cat committed an act of war. What she did was essentially to kidnap a foreign official, in modern terms.

[Daena the Defiant]

And failing to do much at all in response to the likelihood that Tyrion would be killed as a result of her actions.

In al honesty, I ask you - after Lysa took custody of him, tried him and freed him, what should she have done?

[ab aeterno]

Well i've actually said it was both before, but that isn't what I'm saying here and you know it. You are blatantly misconstruing what I'm saying so I find it hard to argue in a rational and civil way.

Right, one more time. Brought Tyrion to safest place to hold him. The reader has no idea what the next step was, but it certainly wasn't to let Lysa put him on trial. But there would have been a trial. Just not by Lysa.

It's hardly my fault if you can't be civil. By what right did she "hold him?" If she took Tyrion to the Eyrie and wanted to put him on trial, she knew that it was Lysa's right as Lady of the Eyrie to preside over the trial. She knew that Lysa hated the Lannisters so she should have known that Lysa would insist on trying him herself. If she didn't intend to put him on trial then she just kidnapped him.

[lilenadheas]

Tywin was the aggressor but Cat committed an act of war. What she did was essentially to kidnap a foreign official, in modern terms.

arrest goddamn it, Arrest! She arrested him. What she did was not illegal. We can debate how clever or stupid it was but why are you referring to it as kidnapping?

[Jolene Brown]

In al honesty, I ask you - after Lysa took custody of him, tried him and freed him, what should she have done?

Taken some responsibility! Said that she was the one who brought him here and she wanted him to be provided with safe passage! If Lysa had refused to give it, said that she was going to escort him back down personally as she escorted him up. You can be sure the Blackfish would have insisted on going with and making sure they had protection if she had done that. If she didn't want to be responsible for his safety, she shouldn't have taken him hostage in the first place. It is that simple. She doesn't get to just abandon him to die because things have gotten complicated. This is why you don't do what she did. Because you can lose control of the situation and be faced with very unpalatable choices.

I am not saying she is evil. She is a character that I really like, although I do not like the undead version of her. But what she did in this situation was wrong.

[Castel]

arrest goddamn it, Arrest! She arrested him. What she did was not illegal. We can debate how clever or stupid it was but why are you referring to it as kidnapping?

This is the problem with a society like Westeros. What determines if something is illegal or not? Power. That's all. We have no precedent for it, and the king wants Tyrion let go for political reasons and never mentions the law so "illegal" is a very gray area.

That said, once Ned declares that he sent Cat to arrest Tyrion it does indeed become legal. Did Tywin know that before he flipped his shit? I doubt he cared really. He moved far too quickly for me not to be suspicious.

[Daena the Defiant]

Taken some responsibility! Said that she was the one who brought him here and she wanted him to be provided with safe passage! If Lysa had refused to give it, said that she was going to escort him back down personally as she escorted him up.

HOW?