Doran Martell, An Underestimated Force

[ASRAIL]

Recently I've noticed that a lot of people don't like Doran Mertell. For me he is one of the badass character in the book. Here are my reasons.

He spent last 15 years in secret plots against the king. So secret in fact that he didn't even told the ones who participate about them. Most of the people think that this is incredibly stupid move but if you actually think about it it's not. He had to walk a fine line between making the Baratheon king think that he's on his side and plotting against him at the same time. So this is no time to reveal your highly classified plan to a hot headed teenage girl. In my country we say that if you know a secret the total number of people knowing it is 1. If you tell a second person the total number of people knowing it is 11. So it was completely necessary for him, in my opinion, to hold the secret even from Arianne.

One other critique against him is sending Quentyn to his mission in Slaver's bay. Really who do you think he should have sent? He had a contract promise to marry his daughter for the last Targaryen prince. Given the fact the aforementioned prince is dead he does the most logical thing sending his son to marry the last Targaryen princess. True that Quentyn is not Dany's type of man and Dany herself is bogged down at Mereen but this was a political marriage at first place. There's no need to love or even like the person to make such a marriage happen. Who is better suited to be trusted with this top secret mission if not the future groom? This plus the fact that when he made the decision the only thing he knew about Dany was that she is desperately trying to make her way back to Westeros makes his decision perfectly legit to me.

My last point is his cooperation with Oberyn. His metaphor with the viper in the grass is another wonderful example of his scamming abilities. He presents himself to be this quite, indecisive even fearful crippled prince but actualy works in close cooperation with his seemingly out of control worrior brother to tumble down the Lannister rule. Oberyn is no doubt badass himself but at the very moment he decided to take the initiative the things went bad for him. If he had just followed his brother plan he might have lived more than half a book and revealed his full badassness.

In overall I don't think Doran is just this crippled guy who just builds over complicated plots and takes no action fulfilling them. To me he's this badass secretive character who spent the last 15 years scamming to overthrow the current regime while hiding behind the mask of a crippled and indecisive prince. And when his plans finally come into motion(hopefully in TWOW) I predict very interesting times in Westeros.

[Jolene Brown]

My issue with Doran is that, thus far, he has yet to accomplish anything whatsoever. If that changes in TWOW, I'll be happy to give him credit, but as of now, he's all talk.

[LordBloodraven]

What are the results of Doran's plotting so far? A dead brother, a dead son, an estranged wife, an agitated Dorne losing respect for their prince. I commend him for getting Dorne out of the WO5K but so far we have yet to see the positive results of his plots

[Lady Lea]

He sure gave that Tywin Lannister and that Robert Baratheon a taste of their own medicine...!

Oh wait, no he didn't.

They lived confortable lives and then died for reasons totally unrelated to Doran without ever hearing a thing about any revenge.

Well... he'll get 'em next life!

[Light a wight tonight]

Doran Martell appreciation topic. That's a tough one. There's just less to him than meets the eye. Sits around all day and watches the kiddies play in the fountains while the blood oranges fall off the trees. Can't even get some gardeners to pick the damn oranges so they won't fall and make such a mess?

It may be that the oranges are an indicator of his general ineffectiveness.

[Kate Greyjoy]

Doran Martell appreciation topic. That's a tough one. There's just less to him than meets the eye. Sits around all day and watches the kiddies play in the fountains while the blood oranges fall off the trees. Can't even get some gardeners to pick the damn oranges so they won't fall and make such a mess?

It may be that the oranges are an indicator of his general ineffectiveness.

I know, as much as I love the Martells, he's a pretty big waste of space.

[RedBean]

I hate the way he did basically nothing after Elia and her children were murdered. Granted, he couldn't go against Robert and his allies, but he could have made his displeasure known at least.

And I agree with all the posters above. For all his talk, everyone he has a "right" to get revenge against are now dead. Robert Baratheon, Tywin Lannister, Ned Stark, Jon Arryn, and Hoster Tully. All the ringleaders of the original rebellion died, without him having any hand in their deaths. His "revenge" has evaporated, but he still wants to go around killing...who? Tommen? Myrcella? Cersei/Jaime? What have any of those people ever done to him? He waited too long for his "plans", and now he's pretty much done.

[Winter's Knight]

Absolutely wonderful guy. I particularly like how he not only kept Arianne in the dark but also limited her training as heir apparent to party-planning.

[Barty]

The man abandoned his sworn lords (Targaryens - He did squat to help Viserys) and did nothing to avenge his sister but sit and plan all day till each and everyone who killed his sister died in ways that had nothing to do with him. Oberyn deserves an appreciation thread - not Doran

[Pellaeon]

I really like Doran, maybe even admire him, yes I want him to dance on Tywins grave, or in his case drive with his chair over it. He proof that he isn't an idiot, his patience result out of the fact that he want his family and his people save. He plays the game extremely well, easy to see because nobody know he even plays it, maybe even Varys and LF don't have a clue. I'm sure he has something big up his sleeve and only waits for the right moment to strike. Oberyn died because he was impacient and Quentyn out of stupidity, but I see it so, nobody of the Martels died because of his actions, he pays the game and keep his family save, no other great family can say this in Westeros at the moment. That make him to a geat player, he is in the game, has a family and his family is save. No other of the players can say this about himself, not Tywin, not Olenna, we don't speak about Ned, Stannis or Balon

[Pellaeon]

Absolutely wonderful guy. I particularly like how he not only kept Arianne in the dark but also limited her training as heir apparent to party-planning.

Yes her first plot went so well, a little girl get (nearly?) killed and the night of the KG who was suppose to protect the princess get killed by a guy who also was suppose to protect the princess, yes his caution wasn't justify at all

EDIT: Did I mention how she neary destroy 20 years of work, because of her inconsideration and nearly pin a target on an innocent girl?

[Barty]

I really like Doran, maybe even admire him, yes I want him to dance on Tywins grave, or in his case drive with his chair over it. He proof that he isn't an idiot, his patience result out of the fact that he want his family and his people save. He plays the game extremely well, easy to see because nobody know he even plays it, maybe even Varys and LF don't have a clue. I'm sure he has something big up his sleeve and only waits for the right moment to strike. Oberyn died because he was impacient and Quentyn out of stupidity, but I see it so, nobody of the Martels died because of his actions, he pays the game and keep his family save, no other great family can say this in Westeros at the moment. That make him to a geat player, he is in the game, has a family and his family is save. No other of the players can say this about himself, not Tywin, not Olenna, we don't speak about Ned, Stannis or Balon

And none of his enemies are dead at his hand. Where is the vengeance?? His sister is raped and murdered and he goes on playing the game, He abandons the Targs when they need him the most and does nothing even when his brother is killed at the hands of the same man who raped and killed his sister. Still he goes on playing his game. Give me any true,brave and loyal man who doesn't know squat about the game(Or is that another way of saying Starks??) and he deserves far more appreciation than the man who bows down to the men who raped and killed his sister.

[Tony Soprano]

Wow...this is actually becoming a topic for haters rather than fans.

I, for one, like him. But I have to agree with people who say he hasn't done squat. He's been planning his revenge and plotting the Targs ascension for years, but everything seems to blow up in his face. Yeah, sometimes that was his own fault, but most of the time it was thanks to the stupidity of other Martells( I'm looking at you Arianne and Quentyn ).

He seems like a pretty cautious, patient guy, so I'll give him another chance to prove himself and try to hatch his master plan.

[Pellaeon]

And none of his enemies are dead at his hand. Where is the vengeance?? His sister is raped and murdered and he goes on playing the game, He abandons the Targs when they need him the most and does nothing even when his brother is killed at the hands of the same man who raped and killed his sister. Still he goes on playing his game. Give me any true,brave and loyal man who doesn't know squat about the game(Or is that another way of saying Starks??) and he deserves far more appreciation than the man who bows down to the men who raped and killed his sister.

Until now none, yes but how many of his family members are death, a hostage or in immediate dager because of him? And we have two books to go

[RedBean]

Yes her first plot went so well, a little girl get (nearly?) killed and the night of the KG who was suppose to protect the princess get killed by a guy who also was suppose to protect the princess, yes his caution wasn't justify at all

EDIT: Did I mention how she neary destroy 20 years of work, because of her inconsideration and nearly pin a target on an innocent girl?

So, maybe he should have made her a part of his plans, instead of keeping her in the dark for 20 years? Did he just expect her to sit at home and sew for 20 years? She's going to become ruler of Dorne when he's dead - the least he could do is make her capable. I mean, Ned took his sons' educations in had from very early on. He had Bran witnessing an execution at 7 years old! Because he knew that his sons will have to take over his duties someday. Doran simply holds his secrets close with him, and doesn't even trust his own family to help him, even though he knows he's probably going to die in another 10 years. Doran has tried the limits of both Arianne and Quentyn. Which is why Quentyn is dead, and why Arianne was almost ready to betray him.

[RedBean]

Until now none, yes but how many of his family members are death, a hostage or in immediate dager because of him? And we have two books to go

Well, Quentyn and Oberyn are dead. He himself held Arianne captive, and the Sand Snakes as well. The only people who're really safe are Trystane and Sarella.

Edit: Not to mention how he did squat about Elia and her children.

[Chaircat Meow]

Doran appears wise and prudent not to entrap Dorne in a fruitless war for revenge with Robert and Tywin. The Dornish would probably lose.

However, Doran isn't interested in peace per se, or in keeping the smallfolk out of the quarrels of the high lords, which is what some people praise him for.

No, he seems to be interested in postponing harebrained and probably doomed schemes for revenge until later, when he can implement different but equally harebrained schemes for revenge (like the Arianne-Viserys match).

Cos Arianne + Viserys always was going to = war with king Bob, right?

So why the Doran love?

He might have inadvertently been good for his country, but this was largely due to timorousness. Moreover, he really had no reason to get involved in the war of the five kings, like, at all. So why does he get praised for this?

[TalalOfDorne]

He is one of my favorite characters and I really like him. His enemies may be dead but at least he kept his lands out of war, and what was he supposed to do? start a war he couldn't win so he could kill Tywin and Robert? He obviously wants vengeance but he also sees the importance of keeping his people safe. People think Dorne is very powerful and they try not to anger them even if they are not as powerful as they seam they are still feared. The problem is we don't know what his ultimate goal is, but so far it looks as if he is waiting for his enemies to exhaust themselves to strike, which makes me think that he doesn't just want to kill his enemies he wants do destroy their houses once and for all.

I like him but he's not perfect, one thing i hate is he still leaves Arianne as his heir who isnt really trained to succeed him. She may have changed after he told her his plans but it doesn't mean she is ready, and he could die at any moment due to his age and illness :bawl:

[Pellaeon]

So, maybe he should have made her a part of his plans, instead of keeping her in the dark for 20 years? Did he just expect her to sit at home and sew for 20 years? She's going to become ruler of Dorne when he's dead - the least he could do is make her capable. I mean, Ned took his sons' educations in had from very early on. He had Bran witnessing an execution at 7 years old! Because he knew that his sons will have to take over his duties someday. Doran simply holds his secrets close with him, and doesn't even trust his own family to help him, even though he knows he's probably going to die in another 10 years. Doran has tried the limits of both Arianne and Quentyn. Which is why Quentyn is dead, and why Arianne was almost ready to betray him.

Well, Quentyn and Oberyn are dead. He himself held Arianne captive, and the Sand Snakes as well. The only people who're really safe are Trystane and Sarella.

Edit: Not to mention how he did squat about Elia and her children.

Oberyn is dead because he had the impression it would be a good idea to scream at the mountain instead of finishing him and Quentin is dead because of the brilliant idea to mount a dragon, he might should have train Arianne better, but did she ever proof that she is worthy of his trust concerning his plans, she isn't really a person who can keep a secret or better, know who to trust. And he hold them captive so they don't do anything stupid like Arianne did and risk his plans or Dorne itself. Concerning Elia would it better if he does what Ned or Catelyn or Robb did, taking actions without secureing his family first or thinking of the possible long term consequences and making sure that he is able to win?

[Foxhound]

His "careful planning" and "patience" look suspiciously similar to "sitting around doing nothing." Doran signs a marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys and then does...nothing. He just waits, for years, as both Arianne and Viserys come of age, and still does nothing. Then Viserys dies (surprise, a guy nicknamed the "Beggar King" was a high risk!) and Doran curses the gods for ruining his plan. What plan? He was in no better position to crown Viserys when he died than at the end of the rebellion. Was he hoping that Robert would die and cause a massive succession crisis? Then he switches his plan to Quentyn, which after over a decade and half of planning is give him five guys and tell him good luck.