Doran Martell, An Underestimated Force

[Winter's Knight]

Yes her first plot went so well, a little girl get (nearly?) killed and the night of the KG who was suppose to protect the princess get killed by a guy who also was suppose to protect the princess, yes his caution wasn't justify at all

EDIT: Did I mention how she neary destroy 20 years of work, because of her inconsideration and nearly pin a target on an innocent girl?

Her plot was a desperate bid to retain her rights because she thought her father was about to disinherit her.

Note that Doran not only kept her out of the loop but he also kept her from learning how to rule as well,making sure that she only handle state functions and the like.

[ASRAIL]

Ooooh boy I knew this is going to be hard. :cool4:

At LordBloodraven: Was it really his fault about Oberyn an Quentyn? As far as we know the plan for Oberyn was to spy for Dorn not to seek revenge. I know that the revenge is the ultimate goal and he did bring it one step closer but the price was too high in my opinion. Dorn lost one of his main weapons in the face of Oberyn for the price of getting a man to confess something everybody already knows. Doran's plan was to win in the bigger game delivering revenge in the process not to deal revenge for the sake of revenge itself na matter the price. The situation with Quentyn is the same. He was to marry Dany not to steal her dragons. Seriously what was he thinking?

He estranged his wife in the process of trying to prepare his heir fit for governance. At the time Quentyn was supposed to inherit Doran as prince of Dorn while Arianne was to become a princess of Westeros.

Well he did alienate the people from himself but that is the risk he took and so far the risk had paid off. No one knows about his plans and the only people who have opposed him are the hot headed daughters of his hot headed brother who got himself killed because of his direct manner of problem solving, his own hot headed daughter and "the most dangerous man in Dorn". All the others seem to be quite submissive and acceptive towards him and his commands(even one of the most close companions of his daughter).

Lady Lea: What was he supposed to do? To rebel openly against the combine forces of all the other six kingdoms!? He did the only logical thing in my opinion he laid low and began plotting the revenge. And laying low until the very last moment when you explode with tremendous force and snatch the victory is a very good plan in my book(and Tywin Lannister's apparently). The problem is that so far we have only seen him laying low.

I also want to add that I've allways loved those kind of characters who lay low a long time and look like a waste of time and then they do something awesome out of the blue. For example that girl in "Lock, stock and two smoking barrels" who was so high all the time and laid on the sofa for the half a movie. She was basically one of the furnitures until she got hold of this enormous machine gun and started raining maham(

). I've got the feeling that Doran will do something along those lines the problem is that for you he's one of the furnitures and for me he's the guy who is waiting for the right moment to bring out the machine gun .

Edit: To the people who are telling that he should have trained Ariane to be his successor. She was never meant to be his successor as she herself found out. She was supposed to be a princess of the Seven kingdoms therefore no special training required because the princesses of the Seven kingdoms have no real power. The only thing required of them is to produce heirs.

[Pellaeon]

His "careful planning" and "patience" look suspiciously similar to "sitting around doing nothing." Doran signs a marriage pact between Arianne and Viserys and then does...nothing. He just waits, for years, as both Arianne and Viserys come of age, and still does nothing. Then Viserys dies (surprise, a guy nicknamed the "Beggar King" was a high risk!) and Doran curses the gods for ruining his plan. What plan? He was in no better position to crown Viserys when he died than at the end of the rebellion. Was he hoping that Robert would die and cause a massive succession crisis? Then he switches his plan to Quentyn, which after over a decade and half of planning is give him five guys and tell him good luck.

He didn't tell Arianne everything, we don't know if he just sit there and waited or if he actually did something, prepare Dorne, maybe. Am I the only one who thinks that the children of the Lords of Dorne all go to the same place, where he live the most time of the year?

[Pellaeon]

Her plot was a desperate bid to retain her rights because she thought her father was about to disinherit her.

Note that Doran not only kept her out of the loop but he also kept her from learning how to rule as well,making sure that she only handle state functions and the like.

I agree with you, he should have trained Arianne better, but is this really a legitimation for her actions?

[maximilian]

All his plotting is nothing but hot air.

Maybe that's why it's so hot in Dorne?

[Foxhound]

He didn't tell Arianne everything, we don't know if he just sit there and waited or if he actually did something, prepare Dorne, maybe. Am I the only one who thinks that the children of the Lords of Dorne all go to the same place, where he live the most time of the year?

Saying after a decade all he managed was to make sure his own bannermen would fight is a pretty terrible accomplishment. By his own admission Dorne is the weakest kingdom, at least in terms of projecting power. If he wanted to succeed he'd need outside help. We have no evidence he sought any, and based on his paranoia, isolation and behavior of the other powers we can reasonably assume he never did. And if he did make any overtures that just makes his silence to Arianne look worse. Really, his apparent plan to wait and wait and crown Viserys at some point on his own was little better than Arianne's plan.

And why would think the children of the Dornish Lords all live in the same place? There's no evidence for it, and Quentyn's fostering points against it.

[Winter's Knight]

I agree with you, he should have trained Arianne better, but is this really a legitimation for her actions?

Yes-as far as she could tell, her father was about to disinherit her.

And it isn't about "treating her better", it's about training his heir.. Doran is sickly and has been so for several years yet the effort he puts into preparing her to rule is low enough rivals Robert's.

[DavosSeaworthy]

Doran is either going to look like a genius or a fool by the end of the books, I'm very interested in seeing how this turns out.

[Sevumar]

Doran Martell appreciation topic. That's a tough one. There's just less to him than meets the eye. Sits around all day and watches the kiddies play in the fountains while the blood oranges fall off the trees. Can't even get some gardeners to pick the damn oranges so they won't fall and make such a mess?

Doran Martell is actually one of the better leaders in the series. He knows when he cannot win a fight and he knows not to waste Dornish blood and Dornish lives in pursuit of a fruitless war. His line about limiting the losses of Dorne and keeping it out of the War of the Five Kings is one of the best insights into leadership in the series. This is a man who understands that he has a duty to his people, even if they disagree with him about what course of action is best at a given moment.

His plots are slow-moving compared to the rest of the realm's major players, but there are reasons for this. He knows that Dorne is still the "outsider kingdom" in many ways. He's probably keenly aware of the role that the perception of Dornish influence at court played in setting up the first Blackfyre Rebellion. Doran rightly identifies the dangers involved in any revelation of Dorne's Targaryen sympathies and he knows that Dornish actions and Dornishmen were squarely on the loyalist side during Robert's Rebellion. He did not want to become another Balon Greyjoy, so he waited and made the right call.

It may be that the oranges are an indicator of his general ineffectiveness.

I don't see him as an ineffective ruler, merely a patient and prudent one. He's not obliged to join the war and he's wise not to have, even when others threatened open rebellion against his rule. No, his plans have not met with tremendous success so far, but there seems to be much more to him than we've seen so far.

[Lady Lea]

Lady Lea: What was he supposed to do? To rebel openly against the combine forces of all the other six kingdoms!? He did the only logical thing in my opinion he laid low and began plotting the revenge. And laying low until the very last moment when you explode with tremendous force and snatch the victory is a very good plan in my book(and Tywin Lannister's apparently). The problem is that so far we have only seen him laying low.

The thing about planning: it doesn't actually accomplish anything unless you do something about your plans. He spent 15 years planning his revenge, and the best he could come up with was to marry Arianne to Viserys (without telling her about it + condemning her to be married to a crazy abusive beggar + after not having helped Viserys at all when he was in need), or Dany to Quentyn (I guess she should have been convinced that it was the right thing to do even though Dorne never helped her, she was already engaged, and Quentyn didn't actually bring any money, ships or soldiers with him).

All I can say is, I'm not very impressed.

He didn't need to go to war to get his revenge, surely he could have made sure that at least Gregor and Amory were punished when Elia's murder was still fresh?

Tywin Lannister never waited on his revenge. Oh, he didn't abandon all care to go after Robb Stark, but he didn't take 15 years to plan the Red Wedding either.

Edit: To the people who are telling that he should have trained Ariane to be his successor. She was never meant to be his successor as she herself found out. She was supposed to be a princess of the Seven kingdoms therefore no special training required because the princesses of the Seven kingdoms have no real power. The only thing required of them is to produce heirs.

And Doran didn't ask her about it. What do you think Arianne would have preferred? To be the ruler of Dorne, be a Great Lady, marry whoever she likes, command all the spears in Dorne, or... marry a crazy abusive guy, that comes with no power, no money, no army, and be a powerless "princess" (but only if Arianne wins Westeros for him of course)? What a great revenge for Doran, to ruin his daughter's life. That will teach everyone a lesson!

[Sevumar]

The thing about planning: it doesn't actually accomplish anything unless you do something about your plans. He spent 15 years planning his revenge, and the best he could come up with was to marry Arianne to Viserys (without telling her about it + condemning her to be married to a crazy abusive beggar + after not having helped Viserys at all when he was in need), or Dany to Quentyn (I guess she should have been convinced that it was the right thing to do even though Dorne never helped her, she was already engaged, and Quentyn didn't actually bring any money, ships or soldiers with him).

Had he decided to act on his plans before Robert's death, it would've only resulted in defeat and ruin for Dorne. In that sense, Doran was wise to keep his plans quiet and wait for a good opportunity.

As for the Viserys-Arianne marriage pact, you do realize that the agreement was made when Viserys was a child? I doubt that the details of his personality were well-known by his caretaker or Oberyn. It wasn't possible to tell what kind of person he'd grow up to be or that Darry's death would have hastened the degeneration of Viserys. It's pretty normal for rulers to arrange marriages for their children at young ages, so Doran's actions were not especially strange here. This is how alliances and pacts are made in the Seven Kingdoms. Doran was repeating a historic pattern by seeking to seal an alliance between Dorne and the Targaryens with marriage.

In other threads, I've already demolished the silly expectation that Quentyn was supposed to tote the whole of Dorne's troop strength with him across the seas on his "secret" mission to reveal the marriage pact to Dany.

He didn't need to go to war to get his revenge, surely he could have made sure that at least Gregor and Amory were punished when Elia's murder was still fresh?

I don't see a way that he was going to be able to get vengeance for the rape and murder of Elia and her children. Tywin does not give up his pet monsters lightly and he was not going to be willing to do it to assuage Doran Martell's conscience.

I'm not sure that the willingness to pursue vengeance at any cost is the measure of a good leader. I would rather live in Doran's kingdom than Tywin's, for example. The pattern we see in Westerosi history is a clear one of grudges passed down from generation to generation as a part of the family inheritance. One wrong demand revenge and that revenge must be avenged by the other side, locking families into pointless disputes that claim many lives down the generations. Any ruler who is willing to engage a little patience instead of plunging headlong back into the cycle of violence and revenge is a smart one, not a failure, in my opinion.

Tywin Lannister never waited on his revenge. Oh, he didn't abandon all care to go after Robb Stark, but he didn't take 15 years to plan the Red Wedding either.

The Red Wedding was effective, but at too high a cost. Had Tywin lived, he would have seen Lannister power and influence crumbling around him. Not all of it would have been his fault, but most of the seeds of that failure were planted by his actions and his blind spots.

[franko99]

So, maybe he should have made her a part of his plans, instead of keeping her in the dark for 20 years? Did he just expect her to sit at home and sew for 20 years? She's going to become ruler of Dorne when he's dead - the least he could do is make her capable. I mean, Ned took his sons' educations in had from very early on. He had Bran witnessing an execution at 7 years old! Because he knew that his sons will have to take over his duties someday. Doran simply holds his secrets close with him, and doesn't even trust his own family to help him, even though he knows he's probably going to die in another 10 years. Doran has tried the limits of both Arianne and Quentyn. Which is why Quentyn is dead, and why Arianne was almost ready to betray him.

He is one of my favorite characters and I really like him. His enemies may be dead but at least he kept his lands out of war, and what was he supposed to do? start a war he couldn't win so he could kill Tywin and Robert? He obviously wants vengeance but he also sees the importance of keeping his people safe. People think Dorne is very powerful and they try not to anger them even if they are not as powerful as they seam they are still feared. The problem is we don't know what his ultimate goal is, but so far it looks as if he is waiting for his enemies to exhaust themselves to strike, which makes me think that he doesn't just want to kill his enemies he wants do destroy their houses once and for all.

I like him but he's not perfect, one thing i hate is he still leaves Arianne as his heir who isnt really trained to succeed him. She may have changed after he told her his plans but it doesn't mean she is ready, and he could die at any moment due to his age and illness :bawl:

I think this is my problem with Doran, if only he could tell his heir about his plans, she may act different. But no she keep her in the dark, she wasn't a child anymore, all she was teached to was to smile and look good during public events, of course she was going to try to do something for herself, especially if she think her brother is ploting to take her right to rule Dorne (at least in her mind).

Not to mention the fact that he didn't give a damn about Viserys, didn't care about his safety or education, he was the worst kind of king to support, and the last person you want to marry your daughter to.

Edit: as for not getting any revenge, well, it was to risky to try something, he did right in just wait for the right moment to strike back, let's face it, before the war, there were no reasons to think Tywin, Ned and Robert will die so soon

[King Aemon I]

He had no other choice did he? He spread a rumor and planted it in every mind.. That Dorne holds fifty thousand men.. In fact it holds 25-30k..

If people would know that, they would treat Dorne more bravely and aggresively.. But no, even after Tyrell-Lannister union, they feared of Doran declaring war.. If they would know he held one man for every 3 men Iron Throne had, they would even force him to war maybe... But even with 60.000 Tyrells and 20.000 Lannisters, they feared 50.000 Dornishmen declaring for war.. Doran did all he could.. Bluffed and nobody called his bluff.. If they would, he would loose...But this 10.000 GC.. With elephants and stuff, he might go to war with his "nephew"..

[Lady Lea]

Had he decided to act on his plans before Robert's death, it would've only resulted in defeat and ruin for Dorne. In that sense, Doran was wise to keep his plans quiet and wait for a good opportunity.

As for the Viserys-Arianne marriage pact, you do realize that the agreement was made when Viserys was a child? I doubt that the details of his personality were well-known by his caretaker or Oberyn. It wasn't possible to tell what kind of person he'd grow up to be or that Darry's death would have hastened the degeneration of Viserys. It's pretty normal for rulers to arrange marriages for their children at young ages, so Doran's actions were not especially strange here. This is how alliances and pacts are made in the Seven Kingdoms. Doran was repeating a historic pattern by seeking to seal an alliance between Dorne and the Targaryens with marriage.

In other threads, I've already demolished the silly expectation that Quentyn was supposed to tote the whole of Dorne's troop strength with him across the seas on his "secret" mission to reveal the marriage pact to Dany.

I don't see a way that he was going to be able to get vengeance for the rape and murder of Elia and her children. Tywin does not give up his pet monsters lightly and he was not going to be willing to do it to assuage Doran Martell's conscience.

I'm not sure that the willingness to pursue vengeance at any cost is the measure of a good leader. I would rather live in Doran's kingdom than Tywin's, for example. The pattern we see in Westerosi history is a clear one of grudges passed down from generation to generation as a part of the family inheritance. One wrong demand revenge and that revenge must be avenged by the other side, locking families into pointless disputes that claim many lives down the generations. Any ruler who is willing to engage a little patience instead of plunging headlong back into the cycle of violence and revenge is a smart one, not a failure, in my opinion.

The Red Wedding was effective, but at too high a cost. Had Tywin lived, he would have seen Lannister power and influence crumbling around him. Not all of it would have been his fault, but most of the seeds of that failure were planted by his actions and his blind spots.

Barristan seemed to know about Viserys. Either way, since Viserys didn't know about the pact, Doran could have forgotten about the whole thing and let Arianne live her life.

He could have helped Viserys in secret from the beginning, to keep him from growing poorer, more bitter and desperate or he could have let Viserys do his own thing, forget about him and take care of Arianne instead to make her a good ruler and let her marry a Dornish lord like she wanted. He chose to not help Viserys and then decide he'd still make a good enough husband for his daughter.

I disagree that Robert wouldn't have punished Gregor and Amory if he was pressed to do so.

[David Selig]

He is smart and responsible enough to be unwilling to start a war he has no realistic choice of winning. This alone makes him a better ruler than pretty much everyone else in the series. Certainly better than Tywin, who started a war against the whole realm and would've been crushed if not for an unpredictable stroke of luck (the shadow baby).

[Pellaeon]

Yes-as far as she could tell, her father was about to disinherit her.

And it isn't about "treating her better", it's about training his heir.. Doran is sickly and has been so for several years yet the effort he puts into preparing her to rule is low enough rivals Robert's.

Characters who were disinherit and didn't put their Land or family in danger over this topic:

-Theon

-Tyrion

-Stannis (in a way)

[Winter's Knight]

Barristan seemed to know about Viserys. Either way, since Viserys didn't know about the pact, Doran could have forgotten about the whole thing and let Arianne live her life.

He could have helped Viserys in secret from the beginning, to keep him from growing poorer, more bitter and desperate or he could have let Viserys do his own thing, forget about him and take care of Arianne instead to make her a good ruler and let her marry a Dornish lord like she wanted. He chose to not help Viserys and then decide he'd still make a good enough husband for his daughter.

I disagree that Robert wouldn't have punished Gregor and Amory if he was pressed to do so.

Robert, punish Amory and Gregor and risk losing the gold in Casterly Rock? Tch.

It should have been simple for Doran to support Dany and Visery: he's wife is from Norvos and has been living there for several years-all he need do is send her the money required ans she can discreetly support them.

[Winter's Knight]

Characters who were disinherit and didn't put their Land or family in danger over this topic:

-Theon

-Tyrion

-Stannis (in a way)

Stannis? Really? Mr The-Throne-Is-Mine-By-Right?

Theon? How so? He spent ten years as a hostage so Balon did what Doran should have and raised his daughter as his heir.

[franko99]

Saying after a decade all he managed was to make sure his own bannermen would fight is a pretty terrible accomplishment. By his own admission Dorne is the weakest kingdom, at least in terms of projecting power. If he wanted to succeed he'd need outside help. We have no evidence he sought any, and based on his paranoia, isolation and behavior of the other powers we can reasonably assume he never did. And if he did make any overtures that just makes his silence to Arianne look worse.

I know this may sound crazy, but didn't Renly said something like "Dorne will join our case sooner or later"? I know Doran never did that, but did Renly send emissaries to make an aliance with Dorne? The enemity between Dorne and The Reach is well known, but if Doran was seeking revenge, wouldn't it be wise to join the king with the greatest army, wo was trying to defeat the Lannisters (Ned and Robert were dead by then, Tywin/Gregor/Lorch are the only ones left for his revenge)? He could at least pretend to join forces with Renly, like he did later when he accept the marriage of Trystane and Myrcella

[Pellaeon]

Stannis? Really? Mr The-Throne-Is-Mine-By-Right?

Theon? How so? He spent ten years as a hostage so Balon did what Doran should have and raised his daughter as his heir.

Stannis feels unappreciate because of Storm's end and Theon feared that Balon would prefer Asha and disinherit him for her