Heresy 24

[Black Crow]

As to the White Lady and still being a firm adherent of the Sidhe connection, I'd just like to remind people that in Faerie lore there is always a Queen of Faerie. She may take a consort and often a human one at that, but there's no King of Faerie.

Similarly the Morrigan (who may of may not be the three-eyed-crow) is also a woman.

[FanTasy]

(snip)

Also, though we have heard little of other members of the Red Lot I do find it passingly strange that we have only heard of one FEMALE. Melisandre spends some time in her internal monologues talking about how she had the best gift of sight in the flames, and how she was far more skilled than others she was training(?) with, but no mention of any other females in the church. Again, it just sticks out to me - this omission.

I don't have any sound theories to offer as to why, but maybe simply a point of discussion. Perhaps the Fire/Ice "Queens" could be compared to each other, especially if there was only one female for each respective power at any given time? This also ties in with the suspicion that some heretics have that Melisandre is far older than we know - which isn't saying much, since we don't really know much about her past aside from "Melony, Lot 7."

(snip)

I suspect Quaithe of being a (or maybe the) Melisandre in Essos.

[Capon Breath]

Is there any chance that "Others" could be a corruption of "Oathers" eg people who have broken an Oath. So if you break your Oath (perhaps harking back to a "pact" discussed in previous Heresies then when you die you are cursed to come back undead?

As far as I can recall, not everyone who is killed by a White wlaker / wight north of the wall rises as a wight.

[Lord Liam DarkStark]

This doesn't seem to be supported via her POV chapter though. It is pretty clear she still sees Stannis as AAR. Maybe she's changed her mind at some point after that and is keeping her doubts to herself. We'll likely find out in TWOW. I guess I interpreted Martin's comment about Melisandre having her own agenda as something we've known all along--that she believes herself to play a role in defeating the "cold children" of the "Great Other."

Agreed. It would make sense that she was lying about stannis, but if she was her POV chapter contradicts it. And I would hate that, writing shouldn't contradict if she was lying she should of stated so in her POV. Its always been obvious she has her own agenda. But it seemed to be running through stannis. Only now are her fires showing her a new path.

[Ser Herman Puppyman]

Let me first start by saying, I understand other people's opinion when they say, "I don't believe there to be a corellation between Fevre Dream and ASOIAF" or "I dont think that we can learn much by comparing the two." I started reading Fevre Dream under the same pretense.

While I was reading it I couldn't help but notice how much emphasis (almost ad nauseum) GRRM put on Sour Billy Tipton's "icy blue eyes." It seemed as if he was saying this is how the Others > WhiteWalkers > Wights relationship works in the Fevre Dream world. And it's rooted in the theme of slavery...

I just believe there is some correlation in:

Others > white walkers > wights

And...

Damon Julian > sour Billy Tipton > Julian plantation slaves

I understand that this Is my opinion/theory/speculation but saying that there isn't a correlation between asoiaf and Fevre dream is thecsame thing... a speculation

[Melifeather]

Good questions here and below! I want to know the answers to all of these too! :) There motivation is beyond my imagination and can we even be positive the Others do want to pass the Wall? I'm sure they do but why...a change in management, theirs or another side? Can we even be sure that they "cannot pass"? If they can't then what has or what will change so they can if that's what they want? Do we go by what Old Nan said that the Others cannot pass as long as the Night's Watch stays true? What does that even mean...we have heard and seen the NW do some pretty crazy things so what would it take? I'm also very interested in how the wights ( Othor and Jafer ) that were brought south of the Wall were able to "activate", I mean if the Others got past the Wall ok but they were not. So many questions...

I'm thinking that once a wight or an Other passes the Wall, they have the same powers and abilities they had north of the Wall. Without the Wall, the magic would escape and encompass Westeros. That the Stark children now have warging abilities is one sign that magic is seeping through the weakening of the Wall. Another thought, maybe the Starks have the ability to warg as a way to protect themselves from the Others and wights? I can't think of the Starks as an evil force! They are decendents of the First Men, and a different "race" than the Others. The Stark's emphasis of "honor" indicates they're the good guys. But, does this necessarily mean that they are "honorable", or is it that they understand that honor, like the guest right, is important to observe because its part of a pact?

Well, this is where the question of guest right and the Others starts creeping in. For Othor and Jafer, since they were carried beyond the Wall by the Watch, you could say that they were "invited in." We know that, outside of this one situation, the Wall is (or at least was, as you point out, no saying if we've crossed that "so long as the Night's Watch stays true" threshold yet or not) the Wights, including Coldhands, cannot pass beyond the Wall.

We can reasonably assume that this warding extends to the Others, but we don't know for sure (I honestly can't recall any instance where it's even said that the Others can't cross the Wall... if you have one please post it!).

"Old Nan's stories say that they cannot pass so long as the Wall stands strong." - this was in one of the Bran POV's when he was at the Nightfort with Jojen and Meera when they met Sam.

When Coldhands was unable to pass, Meera asked Sam, "Why didn't he come with you?" Meera gestured toward Gilly and her babe. "They came with you, why not him? Why didn't you bring him through this Black Gate too?"

"He...he can't."

"Why not?"

"The Wall. The Wall is more than just ice and stone, he said. There are spells woven into it...old ones, and strong. He cannot pass beyond the Wall."

If you're talking in general terms that Melisandre is the only red priestess mentioned by name/actions that is true. There is mention of a red priestess walking with acolytes in a Tyrion chapter in ADWD.

Quaithe is a priestess of Asshai and a shadowbinder, but does that necessarily mean she is a RED priestess?

[Melifeather]

Not at all - its always encouraging when other people arrive at the same conclusions independently. :cool4:

Has there been previous discussion on the Heresy thread with theories as to why the Wall is made of Ice?

[Stark@heart]

Is there any chance that "Others" could be a corruption of "Oathers" eg people who have broken an Oath. So if you break your Oath (perhaps harking back to a "pact" discussed in previous Heresies then when you die you are cursed to come back undead?

As far as I can recall, not everyone who is killed by a White wlaker / wight north of the wall rises as a wight.

I posted something along these lines a while back but got no traction but its stuck with me.

Magic is real in ASOIAF and Oaths / Honor are taken seriously so if someone was to enter into a Pact with a magical race beings or swear some oath that is bound / sealed by magic and them failed to hold up their end of the bargain then - there should be hell to pay ( so to speak) for the breaking of one's word.

We haven't seen anyone get " it" for not keeping his word except poor Robb, which is kinda odd when you think about it but maybe deliberate since we're coming down to the final two installments - things need to start happening quickly and maybe a good way to start is for people to start reaping what they've sown.

We've seen a little of that with Cersei but if Oaths/ Pacts / Magic have any true meaning then we need to see someone suffer for the breaking of their word and know it's because of Oath Breaking that they are being punished. Like the story of the Rat Cook.

I'm thinking the Ghosts / spirits of Oath Breakers are banished in someway that leaves them Cold? All those Cold souls could become a Cold mist. Eventually the build up of souls could have triggered its own (Cold) magic so that some souls were strong enough to take on a form?

I keep thinking about the difference between the book and HBO when it came to the depiction of the Others. GRRM made them much more elegant with magical looking armor,

The show gave us two different perspectives on the Others/WW from Sam.

They both look dehydrated or freeze dried, to me it even looks alittle like their skin is like bark, which could be all kinds of interesting when thinking on the link between COTF & Others.

Point being

They could be the Ghosts of Oathbreakers or mayhaps they are the Ghosts of those who are cursed. If the Children called down a curse on Men or some such then they could be responsible

for putting a powerful tool into the hands of the Others if not outright creating them.

Hence the Starks with the swords across the laps to ward off the fate they expect.

Just another example of Magic biting you in the ass which happens alot in this story.

[Music Loving Chemist.]

After having reread the first 2 Bran chapters in ADWD, I wonder if anyone else notices the differences between Coldhands and other wights.

Mainly, that Coldhands was quick and agile enough to kill and slice up 5 Night Watchmen (Although with the help of the ravens) and can fight multiple wights at once on the hill...

The wights are on multiple occasions described as slow and clumsy, even in Bran's chapter on the hill. So how come that Coldhands is never described like that, even more so implied to be a fairly good fighter...

Its the same body as any other wight, so how come it 'functions' better?

[7V3N]

Just caught Jaime referencing Kings of Winter when Cat approaches him in Riverrun's dungeons.

"Did the

old Kings of Winter

hide behind their mother's skirts as well?"

I find it interesting that GRRM included the word old. Kings of Winter/King in the North implies the person would be at least 300 years old, so that seems a bit needless. Unless old is specific to Kings of Winter and not just the Stark kings in general, implying the Kings of Winter are older than the Kings in the North.

[alienarea]

A thought about the Others, the wall, and the Stark in Winterfell. And Gorne and Grendel. And Bael the Bard.

We are told that there is magic in the wall that doesn't allow the Others to pass the wall. And we are told that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. We are also told that there are tunnels used by Gorne and Grendel to pass under the wall up to Winterfell (IIRC).

Maybe these tunnels were build at the same time as the wall as part of the pact? The magic in the wall prevents the Others from crossing the wall, but they might be able to get through the tunnels once there isn't a Stark in Winterfell?

Could that be the cause of the snowstorm Stannis is trapped in? If the Others bring the cold, and the old Stark kings rise from the crypts as Theon saw in his dream, maybe they are the cause of the snowstorm. Lady Dustin said "Let winter do its worst" or something similar. And it would fit with "Winter is coming", meaning don't dare to get rid of the Starks or the Others might have a word with you (in the old tongue).

[Melifeather]

A thought about the Others, the wall, and the Stark in Winterfell. And Gorne and Grendel. And Bael the Bard.

We are told that there is magic in the wall that doesn't allow the Others to pass the wall. And we are told that there must always be a Stark in Winterfell. We are also told that there are tunnels used by Gorne and Grendel to pass under the wall up to Winterfell (IIRC).

Maybe these tunnels were build at the same time as the wall as part of the pact? The magic in the wall prevents the Others from crossing the wall, but they might be able to get through the tunnels once there isn't a Stark in Winterfell?

Could that be the cause of the snowstorm Stannis is trapped in? If the Others bring the cold, and the old Stark kings rise from the crypts as Theon saw in his dream, maybe they are the cause of the snowstorm. Lady Dustin said "Let winter do its worst" or something similar. And it would fit with "Winter is coming", meaning don't dare to get rid of the Starks or the Others might have a word with you (in the old tongue).

The canon does not support that Gorne's Way ends at Winterfell. It just says that it's a way through the Wall and that the King in the North was waiting for him on the other side.

[Tyryan Lannister]

Let me first start by saying, I understand other people's opinion when they say, "I don't believe there to be a corellation between Fevre Dream and ASOIAF" or "I dont think that we can learn much by comparing the two." I started reading Fevre Dream under the same pretense.

While I was reading it I couldn't help but notice how much emphasis (almost ad nauseum) GRRM put on Sour Billy Tipton's "icy blue eyes." It seemed as if he was saying this is how the Others > WhiteWalkers > Wights relationship works in the Fevre Dream world. And it's rooted in the theme of slavery...

I just believe there is some correlation in:

Others > white walkers > wights

And...

Damon Julian > sour Billy Tipton > Julian plantation slaves

I understand that this Is my opinion/theory/speculation but saying that there isn't a correlation between asoiaf and Fevre dream is thecsame thing... a speculation

I definitely believe that we should look at Martin's other works as possible inspiration, if only because if something subconsciously led him to write an event or character or relationship a certain way, it's reasonably to consider that it could happen again.

The one problem I have with this theory is the separating of the Others from the White Walkers. IMO (and the opinion of, as far as I'm aware, everyone but you...don't mean to sound condescending, but, from what I can tell, you are the only person who sees a difference between the Others and the WW), they are the same thing, or, if there is a difference, the difference is that the term "Others" applies to both the WW and the Wights, whereas WW is only used for the WW themselves.

Other than that, I believe that what you propose could very well be the case, and that, to help stop people like me from harping on the above point, maybe change it from "Others>WW>Wights" to "Great Other/Faerie Queen>WW/Others>Wights".

[alienarea]

The canon does not support that Gorne's Way ends at Winterfell. It just says that it's a way through the Wall and that the King in the North was waiting for him on the other side.

So the canon doesn't deny it either.

The King in the North resided in Winterfell. When Gorne used the tunnel and the King in the North was waiting for him, the tunnel most likely ended close to Winterfell. I don't think the King in the North was standing by a hole in the middle of nowhere waiting for someone to stick out his head?

[Melifeather]

So the canon doesn't deny it either.

The King in the North resided in Winterfell. When Gorne used the tunnel and the King in the North was waiting for him, the tunnel most likely ended close to Winterfell. I don't think the King in the North was standing by a hole in the middle of nowhere waiting for someone to stick out his head?

Please look at this link to Winterfell and look at the map. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

Look how far Winterfell is from the Wall. We don't have the full story of Gorne, this is true, but to assume that the caves ended up next to Winterfell is assuming quite a bit. I would think that the King in the North had heard reports of Gorne and was out ranging, looking for him, and perhaps even knew of an entrance to the caves.

[mindcrash]

So the canon doesn't deny it either.

The King in the North resided in Winterfell. When Gorne used the tunnel and the King in the North was waiting for him, the tunnel most likely ended close to Winterfell. I don't think the King in the North was standing by a hole in the middle of nowhere waiting for someone to stick out his head?

I don't think it's likely purely due to the distances involved.

[Ser Herman Puppyman]

I definitely believe that we should look at Martin's other works as possible inspiration, if only because if something subconsciously led him to write an event or character or relationship a certain way, it's reasonably to consider that it could happen again.

The one problem I have with this theory is the separating of the Others from the White Walkers. IMO (and the opinion of, as far as I'm aware, everyone but you...don't mean to sound condescending, but, from what I can tell, you are the only person who sees a difference between the Others and the WW), they are the same thing, or, if there is a difference, the difference is that the term "Others" applies to both the WW and the Wights, whereas WW is only used for the WW themselves.

Other than that, I believe that what you propose could very well be the case, and that, to help stop people like me from harping on the above point, maybe change it from "Others>WW>Wights" to "Great Other/Faerie Queen>WW/Others>Wights".

I don't believe I'm the only one who THINKS There is a possibilty the others and the ww are separate. I suppose my point is that there's someone/thing that the white walkers are answering to, and they might be a cross-world GRRM equivalent to Fevre Dreams Damon Julian or the people of the night he leads. I just believe GRRM gave Sour Billy Tipton his icy blue eyes for a reason...

[alienarea]

Please look at this link to Winterfell and look at the map. http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Winterfell

Look how far Winterfell is from the Wall. We don't have the full story of Gorne, this is true, but to assume that the caves ended up next to Winterfell is assuming quite a bit. I would think that the King in the North had heard reports of Gorne and was out ranging, looking for him, and perhaps even knew of an entrance to the caves.

It's speculation indeed, but a tunnel beneath the wall is a dangerous thing for the North because it invalidates the purpose of the wall. Why would you build a wall, rise it higher every year, put some magic into it as well, and then allow for a tunnel underneath?

So the King in the North knew where the tunnel ended, because he was waiting there for Gorne. If the exit to the tunnel was known, you would build a fort or something there for strategic purposes around it - unless it is already next to your stronghold. Since we don't know of a fortified place in the north except the castles and the wall ...

Bonus: Apparently the tunnel existed since the King in the North knew about it. Was that how the Stark in Winterfell and Joramun overthrew the Night's King?

[Lummel]

Maybe they over threw him before the Wall was built.

[Ciazio]

Another thought, maybe the Starks have the ability to warg as a way to protect themselves from the Others and wights? I can't think of the Starks as an evil force! They are decendents of the First Men, and a different "race" than the Others.

Who says you are the bad guy if you join the White Walkers' side? Maybe they are "good" (meaning they will not just obliterate everyone but somehow "help" humans / Starks) and the dragons are the real danger. How many people have the Others killed? How many the dragons? There isn't really a great difference. :smug:

As per the Starks to be a different race, yes, you are right, but that doesn't mean alliances and "marriages" are not possible. Look at Baratheons and Lannisters: they were two great Houses yet they joined their heirs. Why not a peace threaty / marriage between the King of Winter (Stark) and the Queen of Faerie (White Walkers)? :spank: