R+L=DS?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

/facepalm/ No. We're not told that Arya IS Lyanna. We are told that there is physical resemblance and that Arya has the same trait of wildness, "wolf blood", as Lyanna did. Lyanna loved winter roses, Lyanna was crowned with a garland of them, Lyanna clutched them on her deathbed... Never, ever, do we get any connection between blue roses and Arya. If anything, Arya is shown to be fond of wild flowers, not garden ones.

My, what a coincidence, he arrived up to a fortnight after the childbirth. Gosh, who would have thought it possible. Lyanna disappeared over a year ago, pregnancy lasts 9 months, getting pregnant on the first night like Catelyn did is pretty much an exception rather than the rule, so Lyanna got pregnant after a couple of months of regular sex life, just like RL couples do.

OK at no point do I say that Arya actually is Lyanna reincarnated just that she looks like her and acts like her. A virtual reincarnation, who could possibly take the Blue Rose as her symbol. Again I'm not backing this as a theory or even saying this is going to happen just that the idea of the blue rose Dany saw in hotu may well refer to something other than Jon as people seem to think.

Yes it is a coincidence that Ned turns up exactly then. OK the war lasts a year but it's not as if anyone knew this. So the war just happens to end just at the right time that Lyanna gives birth? OK I concede though that coincidences happen throughout the book.

My main point throughout this whole thing is that the whole R+L=J thing may be true it's hinted at but not proven beyond doubt. I see nothing that states Darkstar isn't their kid either both are possibilities.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

@Bear Island Bruiser

4. You could be right, but the whole baby swap seems a bit far fetched to me.

Anyway, I don't think your theory is impossible, just unlikely. And your arguments aren't strong enough to convince me at this time. It all just seems a bit too far fetched.

Except we've already seen it twice already. Jon swapping Mance's child and Varys reporting that he switched Aegon (I'm not completely convinced on that front but that's a different story).

The whole Ned not naming Jon amongst his kids and thinking of Jon as his blood rather than his child could be down to him being Brandon's son via Ashara rather than his own. I've even seem a theory that he's Benjen's kid, though I seriously doubt that.

Yeah I admit my theory is a bit unlikely but no more so than Varys having one of Rhaegers kids stashed away on a barge somewhere.

[Ygrain]

OK at no point do I say that Arya actually is Lyanna reincarnated just that she looks like her and acts like her. A virtual reincarnation, who could possibly take the Blue Rose as her symbol. Again I'm not backing this as a theory or even saying this is going to happen just that the idea of the blue rose Dany saw in hotu may well refer to something other than Jon as people seem to think.

Throughout the five books, the one and only person related to blue roses was Lyanna. When I see another, I will give you that point that the vision might relate to something else, but no sooner. And, just for the record: Lyanna cried over a song while Arya thinks songs are stupid, Lyanna excelled at horseriding but I don't recall this ever being said about Arya.

My main point throughout this whole thing is that the whole R+L=J thing may be true it's hinted at but not proven beyond doubt. I see nothing that states Darkstar isn't their kid either both are possibilities.

It's hinted by multiple clues which all point in the same direction, and they revolve around Jon as a person whose parentage is a mystery and is an important PoV since the very beginning. THe amount of clues pointing towards Darkstar is zero and he is a very minor character so far. Which one is more likely to be the target of a world-shattering revelation?

The whole Ned not naming Jon amongst his kids and thinking of Jon as his blood rather than his child could be down to him being Brandon's son via Ashara rather than his own. I've even seem a theory that he's Benjen's kid, though I seriously doubt that.

Impossible due to timeline. We know from GRRM himself when Jon was born (around the time of the Sack of KL up till a month later), which places his conception well into the rebellion, a couple of months after Brandon's death. At that time, Benjen must have been the Stark at Winterfell, so he couldn't get near Ashara, either.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

Except we've already seen it twice already. Jon swapping Mance's child and Varys reporting that he switched Aegon (I'm not completely convinced on that front but that's a different story).

The whole Ned not naming Jon amongst his kids and thinking of Jon as his blood rather than his child could be down to him being Brandon's son via Ashara rather than his own. I've even seem a theory that he's Benjen's kid, though I seriously doubt that.

Yeah I admit my theory is a bit unlikely but no more so than Varys having one of Rhaegers kids stashed away on a barge somewhere.

I know it has happened before, but come on.. babyswap trick again? And it would make the R+L theory so incredibly complicated.. R+L=J seems overly hinted at.. to people who keep analising the books and read the forums and wikis, but the average reader doesn't do all that. Try to remember that we are obsessed readers. The average reader might just have a vague suspicion that R+L=J, or doesn't even figure that out. R+L=J seems overly obvious, because it has been talked through so much.

Throughout the five books, the one and only person related to blue roses was Lyanna. When I see another, I will give you that point that the vision might relate to something else, but no sooner. And, just for the record: Lyanna cried over a song while Arya thinks songs are stupid, Lyanna excelled at horseriding but I don't recall this ever being said about Arya..

It's said several times that Arya is a very good rider, and Harwin compares her to her aunt when she tries to escape the BWB.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

There are plenty of clues pointing to Darkstar. His looks, his mysterious past, his name (what you don't think it's strange he's named after Rhaeger's best mate?) his angry temper is certainly reminiscent of Targs, the description of him as the most dangerous man in Dorne. I mean OK he's a hothead but THE most dangerous man in Dorne? The background fits the timing and works within with the mystery of Ashara plus explains why Ned rides off straight to Starfall. So far that has yes to be explained fully to me. OK it's a port that's close by but it's also got people in it that will want an explanation to why Ned now has a kid in tow. He could easily have sent Howland to pay his respects. Equally he could have gone there and just sneaked through the city.

OK so the rose only describes Lyanna so to see it growing at the wall would mean that it's someone connected to her. Sure it's possible it's her son equally it could mean someone else. For all you know it could be the secret of Lyanna comes to light around the wall.

The multiple clues pointing to Jon can all equally be answered by other means.

[Ygrain]

It's said several times that Arya is a very good rider, and Harwin compares her to her aunt when she tries to escape the BWB.

Forgot about Harwin, thanks for reminding me. What I had in mind, though, was not her general ability to ride (which is definitely better than Sansa's), but something to the accord of what is said about Brandon and Lyanna as being very exceptionally good, centaur-like. I'll have to re-read the passage with Harwin if he hints something like that or not.

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

There are plenty of clues pointing to Darkstar. His looks, his mysterious past, his name (what you don't think it's strange he's named after Rhaeger's best mate?) his angry temper is certainly reminiscent of Targs, the description of him as the most dangerous man in Dorne. I mean OK he's a hothead but THE most dangerous man in Dorne? The background fits the timing and works within with the mystery of Ashara plus explains why Ned rides off straight to Starfall. So far that has yes to be explained fully to me. OK it's a port that's close by but it's also got people in it that will want an explanation to why Ned now has a kid in tow. He could easily have sent Howland to pay his respects. Equally he could have gone there and just sneaked through the city.

OK so the rose only describes Lyanna so to see it growing at the wall would mean that it's someone connected to her. Sure it's possible it's her son equally it could mean someone else. For all you know it could be the secret of Lyanna comes to light around the wall.

The multiple clues pointing to Jon can all equally be answered by other means.

I think it's highly unlikely that Doran would know that R+L=DS, so that can hardly be the reason he calls him the most dangerous man in Westeros. Yes he might have Targ blood, Doran Martell knows something about him that makes him super dangerous, but no I don't think it's R+L=DS

EDIT: I do agree it could mean something else, I just don't see Darkstar being it. He just comes in so late, and there are no hints at all that connect him to Lyanna. I think R+L=J, it's the one big mystery that has been hinted at since the start of the books. It would be strange if GRRM completely turns that around, and rather dissappointing as well. As I said before, most readers aren't as obsessed with figuring everything out as we are, they would be so utterly confused if it was DS. The books are complicated enough already.

Forgot about Harwin, thanks for reminding me. What I had in mind, though, was not her general ability to ride (which is definitely better than Sansa's), but something to the accord of what is said about Brandon and Lyanna as being very exceptionally good, centaur-like. I'll have to re-read the passage with Harwin if he hints something like that or not.

I don't think it's said she's exceptionally good, but since she's compared to Lyanna, she could be. I don't think that that would mean she would ever be connected to blue roses though, that would be just weird.

[Dr. Pepper]

his name (what you don't think it's strange he's named after Rhaeger's best mate?)

I don't think there is anything ever mentioned about Hightower and Rhaegar being best mates. Gerold Hightower is twice the age of Rhaegar, so paternal affection is possible, close friendship unlikely. Arthur Dayne is said to have been Rhaegar's best buddy.

[Ygrain]

There are plenty of clues pointing to Darkstar. His looks, his mysterious past, his name (what you don't think it's strange he's named after Rhaeger's best mate?)

Rhaegar's best pal was Arthur, not Gerold. Both of them were a kind of a legend, and Gerold was considerably older. If Darkstar was born before the war, he could have easily been named after this living legend.

his angry temper is certainly reminiscent of Targs,

If mere angry temper was a sign of Targ blood, they would have had to sire half the Westeros. This is totally lame.

the description of him as the most dangerous man in Dorne. I mean OK he's a hothead but THE most dangerous man in Dorne?

That may point that there is something about Darkstar but in no way it points directly at R+L. Being a hothead AND a good swordsman AND having an inferiority complex because he is not THE Dayne AND messing with Doran's daughter might well account for being considered as dangerous, IMHO. What puzzles me, though, is why Doran doesn't say "young man". Jaime thinks about Loras as "boy" or "youth" and so does Cersei about Lancel and plenty of people about Jon. At this point of narrative, Darkstar would be 16, which might just so fit into something that Arianne at 23 would consider a peer, but would Doran? Besides, I was under the impression that Arianne's affair with him was not fresh, meaning, it could be even a couple of years ago, when Arianne was still already a woman, but Darkstar definitely a minor.

The background fits the timing

No, it doesn't. The background is unknown, which is the only thing that allows this speculation running.

works within with the mystery of Ashara plus explains why Ned rides off straight to Starfall. So far that has yes to be explained fully to me. OK it's a port that's close by but it's also got people in it that will want an explanation to why Ned now has a kid in tow. He could easily have sent Howland to pay his respects. Equally he could have gone there and just sneaked through the city.

Imagine that you have killed the brother of the woman you loved. Don't you think that the apology for that is something you should definitely deliver in person, as well as the blade the like of which is to be found nowhere else in Westeros?

OK so the rose only describes Lyanna so to see it growing at the wall would mean that it's someone connected to her. Sure it's possible it's her son equally it could mean someone else. For all you know it could be the secret of Lyanna comes to light around the wall.

Be specific: who else? Benjen is not shown as related to Lyanna in any specific way and his presence there is known, there is no reason to hint at him in such an obscure way. Besides, for most of the books, he is not there any more. All the other Starks are accounted for, and the only one present at the Wall is Jon - whose birth, incidentally, perfectly fits into the known timeframe.

The multiple clues pointing to Jon can all equally be answered by other means.

Do entertain me and try - each of them individually as well as the totality of them. In the R+L thread, if you please, so as not to clog this one.

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I think it's highly unlikely that Doran would know that R+L=DS, so that can hardly be the reason he calls him the most dangerous man in Westeros. Yes he might have Targ blood, Doran Martell knows something about him that makes him super dangerous, but no I don't think it's R+L=DS

EDIT: I do agree it could mean something else, I just don't see Darkstar being it. He just comes in so late, and there are no hints at all that connect him to Lyanna. I think R+L=J, it's the one big mystery that has been hinted at since the start of the books. It would be strange if GRRM completely turns that around, and rather dissappointing as well. As I said before, most readers aren't as obsessed with figuring everything out as we are, they would be so utterly confused if it was DS. The books are complicated enough already.

Yeah it would be a bit of a push to say Doran knew as well but he's been shown to be good at keeping secrets. I agree there is far more of a case for R+L=J than R+L=DS. As you say it's been hinted at since book 1. Personally I'd find it disappointing if it is true as it would seem a little flat after all the hints however I take your point that for a more casual reader it could be deemed better.

To be honest my other theory with Darkstar is that he's Brandon and Ashara's kid from the tourney at Harrenhal. His temper would fit in with the whole wolfsblood thing that's said about Brandon, though equally true about Lyanna, and timings would seem to be about right. I don't know something about the name High Hermitage just seems like such a perfect place to hide away a dirty little secret.

[Ygrain]

I don't think it's said she's exceptionally good, but since she's compared to Lyanna, she could be. I don't think that that would mean she would ever be connected to blue roses though, that would be just weird.

Perhaps her horse might eat some blue roses one day, from someone's well-kept garden. That would be totally Arya-style :D

[Manderly's Rat Cook]

If mere angry temper was a sign of Targ blood, they would have had to sire half the Westeros. This is totally lame.

Oh my... Joffrey must have been a secret Targ!!!! :stillsick: :shocked:

That may point that there is something about Darkstar but in no way it points directly at R+L. Being a hothead AND a good swordsman AND having an inferiority complex because he is not THE Dayne AND messing with Doran's daughter might well account for being considered as dangerous, IMHO. What puzzles me, though, is why Doran doesn't say "young man". Jaime thinks about Loras as "boy" or "youth" and so does Cersei about Lancel and plenty of people about Jon. At this point of narrative, Darkstar would be 16, which might just so fit into something that Arianne at 23 would consider a peer, but would Doran? Besides, I was under the impression that Arianne's affair with him was not fresh, meaning, it could be even a couple of years ago, when Arianne was still already a woman, but Darkstar definitely a minor.

Exactly!

Yeah it would be a bit of a push to say Doran knew as well but he's been shown to be good at keeping secrets. I agree there is far more of a case for R+L=J than R+L=DS. As you say it's been hinted at since book 1. Personally I'd find it disappointing if it is true as it would seem a little flat after all the hints however I take your point that for a more casual reader it could be deemed better.

To be honest my other theory with Darkstar is that he's Brandon and Ashara's kid from the tourney at Harrenhal. His temper would fit in with the whole wolfsblood thing that's said about Brandon, though equally true about Lyanna, and timings would seem to be about right. I don't know something about the name High Hermitage just seems like such a perfect place to hide away a dirty little secret.

I'm glad you're open for arguments, I always try to be as well. :)

I understant you would be disappointed, but I would be disappointed if R+L=DS. I've been looking forward to someone figuring out the truth about Jon's parentage for a long time, I would be slightly sad and very frustrated if it turns out to be a minor character like DS. I think DS is gunna be important, and super interesting, and I love the mystery around him, I just don't want him to be R+L. No One should steel Jon's parentage :P

I do think DS is gonna be someone supercool though. Your B+A=DS theory could work, or Brightfire stuff would be great too, or Blackfyre or something.. For now I know too little about him to speculate. He could be anyone, which makes him even cooler.

Perhaps her horse might eat some blue roses one day, from someone's well-kept garden. That would be totally Arya-style :D

LOL! Yes that must be it! Or Arya Horseface eats them herself in a suicide (or assasination attempt to kill someone else) attempt, thinking they're the 'poison kisses' she plucked in AGOT

O god.. now I hope Arya is going to invade some Frey wedding, feeding them poisonkiss-pie, killing all the Freys at once.. :drunk:

[Nudu]

Ned was at war with Dornishmen. Why should he give his nephew to the men he has been slaying?

[Bear Island Bruiser]

I'm glad you're open for arguments, I always try to be as well. :)

I understant you would be disappointed, but I would be disappointed if R+L=DS. I've been looking forward to someone figuring out the truth about Jon's parentage for a long time, I would be slightly sad and very frustrated if it turns out to be a minor character like DS. I think DS is gunna be important, and super interesting, and I love the mystery around him, I just don't want him to be R+L. No One should steel Jon's parentage :P

Hey as I say it's just a theory, not even one that I necessarily think is that likely hence why I'm very open to arguments about it. I was in the main part wanting to see if anyone had spotted something in the books that said it's definitely not the case. His hinted at age would make it seem very unlikely but as I say his age is never nailed on and being a man rather than a boy in Westeros seems to be as much dependent on level of responsibility (Robb going from Ned's son to King of the North for example) and attitude. So a dangerous head of a household would, at least in my mind, be called a man by most especially if he's been in that position for a while.

[Victarion Dayne]

Isn't Dayne one of the houses with blood of Old Valyria? No Dragonlords but definately descendands from them. Similar to Velaryon.

Explaining the hair and eyes and whatnot.

[Ser Leftwich]

No and no. Also, no.

[Dragonfish]

Isn't Dayne one of the houses with blood of Old Valyria? No Dragonlords but definately descendands from them. Similar to Velaryon.

Explaining the hair and eyes and whatnot.

There's been no explicit indication that the Daynes descend from Old Valyria, and George seemed to nix that idea in a chat a few years back.