anyone ever frustrated by Lyanna's character?

[Winter's Knight]

You know who didn't drink to excess at every opportunity because he couldn't stand being in his own skin? Rhaegar. You know who didn't beat ladies? Rhaegar. You know who was multi-talented and capable of much more than just violence and drinking? Rhaegar. You know who died on the trident? Rhaegar. :(

There is just no justice in the world.

[Ser Duncan of Flea Bottom]

Lyanna and Raeghar mistery has a lot to play in all this plots, they are the key for something, I'm sure

I'm a supporter of R + L = J

Jon maybe is the prince who was promised, it would be awesome, from bastard to ptwp!!!

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Because people somehow expect them to be omnipresent and have the gift of Divine Foresight? ;) I don't know either.

Also, your English is fine and welcome to the forums. :) We are lots of second language posters on this forum, please don't feel put off by not having perfect grammar all the time (most native speakers don't either).

No...we don't think they should have known what was going to happen, but when it started happening, when the mad king killed her father and brother, you would think they would stop and re-evaluate their love, to know if it's worth destroying the kingdoms for.

Would anybody here, stay with the son of the guy who killed your father and brother? It doesn't make any sense.

[Daenerys is my queen]

I still wonder why most people seem to think that Lyanna and Rhaegar could have predict what would happen. Ok, I admit that they should have known that eloping without leaving any kind of note would cause some trouble, but how should they have known that it turned out that extreme?

Exactly. Lyanna and Rhaegar aren't psychic. Maybe they should have realized there would be some consequences but Lyanna was a teenager and Rhaegar was in his 20s (at least that's what I've seen people say). People that age don't always think of the consequences before they do something. Plus Rhaegar was the prince and a Targaryen at that. He probably was very impulsive and had a sense that he could do whatever he wanted without any consequences.

@ Michael Snow: Rhaegar was honorable, Rhaegar was valiant, and Rhaegar died. :lol:

[UnbentFury]

Exactly. Lyanna and Rhaegar aren't psychic. Maybe they should have realized there would be some consequences but Lyanna was a teenager and Rhaegar was in his 20s (at least that's what I've seen people say). People that age don't always think of the consequences before they do something. Plus Rhaegar was the prince and a Targaryen at that. He probably was very impulsive and had a sense that he could do whatever he wanted without any consequences.

@ Michael Snow: Rhaegar was honorable, Rhaegar was valiant, and Rhaegar died. :lol:

Nobody can tell me that Rhaegar didn't know what kind of person his father he was. I don't care if he was impulsive and young--you know your father's freaking insane. Did you expect everything to be peachy-keen? Did you expect running off with the daughter of a powerful lord without explaining WTF is going on would end up with no consequences? Did you think that abandoning and dishonoring the daughter of a powerful house would end with no consequences? It doesn't take a psychic or a rocket scientist to figure this out. Even a twelve-year old can see that hey, maybe I should hesitate about this.

This is a medieval-era 20s and 16 we're talking about here--not modern times. By that age, in this time-era, they should know what could possibly go down if they did this. They don't need to know the exact details, but they should know not much positive is going to come out of this and if the lover's running away theory is true they are both pretty selfish.

[Quiet Isle]

As she is constanlty compared to Arya, I tend to think of her as the most awesome chick who ever graced the soil of Westeros. You know, until the real deal that is.

I personally think that Lyanna was the complete synthesis of Sansa AND Arya. A beauty, a lady, and a badass. And I also believe that Rhaegar was plotting a coup against his father (and it's buttressed in other threads in the Forums), and that Elia was fine with him taking lyanna as a second wife to fulfill the prophecy. Rhaegar read some scrolls that told him of his destiny early in life. after reading it, he marched out, asked for arms and told folks that apparently he was destined to be a warrior. He knew. Elia was from Dorne - they're the most sexually liberated women (except maybe wildlings) - she knew she couldn't have more children, and said - go for it. Barristan Selmy and Jaime have paragraphs where they talk about Rhaegar's plans to "make some changes around here" - as far back as the tourney at Harrenhall.

[Ygrain]

No...we don't think they should have known what was going to happen, but when it started happening, when the mad king killed her father and brother, you would think they would stop and re-evaluate their love, to know if it's worth destroying the kingdoms for.

Would anybody here, stay with the son of the guy who killed your father and brother? It doesn't make any sense.

Depending on how fast things were occuring, Rhaegar and Lyanna were either at ToJ or only en route, travelling in secrey and without access to means of communication. They definitely can't have learned immediately what happened in KL, and when they did, the whole rebellion was under way. Returning (with) Lyanna would not have stopped anything at this point - Ned and Robert were rebel lords whose lives were forfeit, and they had to fight or die, Lyanna or not. At this point, Lyanna really doesn't have much choice, and even though what Aerys did must have affected her relationship to Rhaegar, it is not a given that she should blame him or leave him. He is not his father, and not responsible for his father's actions.

Nobody can tell me that Rhaegar didn't know what kind of person his father he was. I don't care if he was impulsive and young--you know your father's freaking insane. Did you expect everything to be peachy-keen? Did you expect running off with the daughter of a powerful lord without explaining WTF is going on would end up with no consequences? Did you think that abandoning and dishonoring the daughter of a powerful house would end with no consequences? It doesn't take a psychic or a rocket scientist to figure this out. Even a twelve-year old can see that hey, maybe I should hesitate about this.

This is a medieval-era 20s and 16 we're talking about here--not modern times. By that age, in this time-era, they should know what could possibly go down if they did this. They don't need to know the exact details, but they should know not much positive is going to come out of this and if the lover's running away theory is true they are both pretty selfish.

I suppose that the consequences they did expect were a couple of disgruntled people who, if they didn't know where R+L were, would keep grumbling for some time and gradually would have to accept it as a fact, receive some lands and titles as a compensation and go on with their lives, while the rest of the Westeros would ravel in the juicy gossip.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

Depending on how fast things were occuring, Rhaegar and Lyanna were either at ToJ or only en route, travelling in secrey and without access to means of communication. They definitely can't have learned immediately what happened in KL, and when they did, the whole rebellion was under way. Returning (with) Lyanna would not have stopped anything at this point - Ned and Robert were rebel lords whose lives were forfeit, and they had to fight or die, Lyanna or not. At this point, Lyanna really doesn't have much choice, and even though what Aerys did must have affected her relationship to Rhaegar, it is not a given that she should blame him or leave him. He is not his father, and not responsible for his father's actions.

Did he not go to war with Lyanna's brother?

[Ygrain]

Did he not go to war with Lyanna's brother?

And would it have been possible not to go when the rebels threatened to overthrow the Targs? He could have promised Lyanna, and made precautions, that Ned's life was spared, and once Rhaegar returned victorious, he would have been in a perfect position to depose Aerys and grant pardons to the rebels.

[Sand Snake No. 9]

Would anybody here, stay with the son of the guy who killed your father and brother? It doesn't make any sense.

. . . And yet so many readers want Sansa to stay with Tyrion. (I'm not one of them, btw.) At least it's implied that Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other . . .

[OberynBlackfyre]

I think Lyanna is kind of MADE to be frustrating at this point. I think she was fierce like Arya, only Arya now has surpassed anything that Lyanna could have been because of everything she has been through. In a way I feel like Arya is kind of becoming more like Brandon Stark than Lyanna.

Through the actions and quotes we hear of Lyanna, you can tell that she actually did have deeper thoughts when it came to love, and the way she wanted to live her life. We also know that she did not exactly have the most faith in her betrothed, because she knew that Robert would never keep to one bed. That kind of shows that she would want someone to show her devotion, something that Rhaegar did from the very beginning.

[Lord Joker Of FunLand]

And would it have been possible not to go when the rebels threatened to overthrow the Targs? He could have promised Lyanna, and made precautions, that Ned's life was spared, and once Rhaegar returned victorious, he would have been in a perfect position to depose Aerys and grant pardons to the rebels.

That's too many assumptions though.

Only a horrible person would stay with the person who's at war with your own family. Especially since it all started because of them being together in the first place.

I stick with my opinion, if she stayed because of love and not because she was kidnapped, she's one of worst people in the entire series. Thousands and thousands died, because she wanted a different man...no other way to spin it. As selfish as can be.

[Ygrain]

That's too many assumptions though.

Only a horrible person would stay with the person who's at war with your own family. Especially since it all started because of them being together in the first place.

I stick with my opinion, if she stayed because of love and not because she was kidnapped, she's one of worst people in the entire series. Thousands and thousands died, because she wanted a different man...no other way to spin it. As selfish as can be.

She DID NOT, and COULD NOT, know thousands would die for it, and if she had left Rhaegar, nothing would have changed, thousands would still die anyway. She and Rhaegar made a big, tragical mistake, which backfired on a scale that no-one would have assumed, and I don't see how it makes them bad persons on par with Varys or LF and such who INTENTIONALLY sparkle conflicts in which thousands die and suffer. - But have it your way, of course.

[Quiet Isle]

Did he not go to war with Lyanna's brother?

no.

[David Selig]

Given that both Brandon and Robert were well known hotheads and Aerys was known to not have been all that stable and rational (Rhaegar certainly knew his father wasn't all sane), I really don't buy the "How could Lyanna and Rhaegar have known bad things would've happened" argument? Sure, a full scale rebellion was hard to predict, but a major trouble of some kind was to be expected. Rhaegar as the adult and given that he knew his father as well as anyone has far more responsibility, of course, but Lyanna has some of it too if she went with him willingly.

[RedBean]

Ah. And so instead he went and threatened to kill the king's son. Sooo much more logical thing to do, sure.

In case it escaped your attention, Aerys' state was deteriorating gradually, and prior the Rebellion, he was known to be paranoid about his safety and have bouts of irrational anger aimed at the people who angered him. Other than that, he was still able to run the land, he didn't run about wearing his pants on his head.

So maybe it wasn't the most logical thing for Brandon to yell for Rhaegar's head, but he only did it because his sister was missing, and he thought she was kidnapped. You wouldn't expect someone to make rational decisions at a time like that. He didn't want Rhaegar's head for a stupid reason. Unlike R+L, he wasn't being selfish.

But if Aerys was crazy, you might expect that Rhaegar and Lyanna would think twice about eloping. Maybe Lyanna should have told her family what had happened or written a letter if she wasn't up to facing them directly. Maybe Rhaegar shoudn't have left his wife and kids with the crazy king he knew his father was. Maybe neither of them should have run away in the first place since Rhaegar was married and had two young kids, and it would be all sorts of hell for Elia Martell if he ran away with a 15 year old girl. Maybe once the shit had started hitting the fan (i.e. when Brandon and Rickard died), they should have finally come out of hiding and told the world they had really just eloped, and that they weren't kidnapped. What they did was incredibly selfish and shortsighted, and I can't see why people insist on making them out to be so innocent in the whole matter.

[Ygrain]

Given that both Brandon and Robert were well known hotheads and Aerys was known to not have been all that stable and rational (Rhaegar certainly knew his father wasn't all sane), I really don't buy the "How could Lyanna and Rhaegar have known bad things would've happened" argument? Sure, a full scale rebellion was hard to predict, but a major trouble of some kind was to be expected. Rhaegar as the adult and given that he knew his father as well as anyone has far more responsibility, of course, but Lyanna has some of it too if she went with him willingly.

That's exactly the point. What kind of trouble was to be expected? A scandal, definitely, some people feeling hurt, some people offended, some people angry - and none of them able to do a thing about it because both culprits were missing. No bloodshed, no war happening, no-one has a reason to fight anyone.

So maybe it wasn't the most logical thing for Brandon to yell for Rhaegar's head, but he only did it because his sister was missing, and he thought she was kidnapped. You wouldn't expect someone to make rational decisions at a time like that. He didn't want Rhaegar's head for a stupid reason. Unlike R+L, he wasn't being selfish.

But if Aerys was crazy, you might expect that Rhaegar and Lyanna would think twice about eloping. Maybe Lyanna should have told her family what had happened or written a letter if she wasn't up to facing them directly. Maybe Rhaegar shoudn't have left his wife and kids with the crazy king he knew his father was. Maybe neither of them should have run away in the first place since Rhaegar was married and had two young kids, and it would be all sorts of hell for Elia Martell if he ran away with a 15 year old girl. Maybe once the shit had started hitting the fan (i.e. when Brandon and Rickard died), they should have finally come out of hiding and told the world they had really just eloped, and that they weren't kidnapped. What they did was incredibly selfish and shortsighted, and I can't see why people insist on making them out to be so innocent in the whole matter.

A lot of assumptions here, and hindsight logic. Elia and her children were perfectly safe with Aerys during Rhaegar's absence before (his prolonged trips to Summerhall, or fighting the bandits), so there was no reason to think otherwise. We don't know if Lyanna wrote a letter or not, because we don't know why Brandon yelled for Rhaegar to "come out and die" instead of "return my sister at once" - the reaction fits both to madness over his sister's fate and to hurt pride over her seduction (though personally, I think the latter). We have no idea what Elia thought about the whole affair and her reactions could have been anything from hurt and offended to relieved that she won't have to be bedded again, or pragmatic acceptance of things as they were, or blessing Rhaegar with her leave because she wished him happiness in life.

As to them coming out of hiding, I have already adressed the point above - once Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard and demanded Ned and Robert's heads, it would have changed nothing, because it was these interconnected events, and not Lyanna's eloping, that sparkled the Rebellion. Basically, Aerys gave Ned and Robert only two choices: submit and die, or rebel. Lyanna's coming out is inconsequential to these options, and once her brother and ex-betrothed rebelled, she HAD to stay in hiding, because she would be at risk of being taken hostage against them, and I believe Ned would rather lose his own head than let his sister burn at Aerys' whim.

[jons nissa]

That's exactly the point. What kind of trouble was to be expected? A scandal, definitely, some people feeling hurt, some people offended, some people angry - and none of them able to do a thing about it because both culprits were missing. No bloodshed, no war happening, no-one has a reason to fight anyone..

the crown prince of the kingdom marrying with the only daughter of one of the oligarchy of that kingdom who is already promised to a first son of another family of that oligarchy is going to be more than a scandal. our own history has shown wars being started for situations like these. that the crown prince already being married to a member of yet another family of that oligarchy doesn't help the situation at all, btw. if they had been peasants, then it would have been more like what you're describing but having someone one murdered for this, even at the peasant level, is not unreasonable. so saying that they shouldn't have expected a major catastrophe would mean the characters are naive. one or more of the families of the oligarchy is bound to want to see justice any way they can get it.

[Lady of Long Lake]

Given that both Brandon and Robert were well known hotheads and Aerys was known to not have been all that stable and rational (Rhaegar certainly knew his father wasn't all sane), I really don't buy the "How could Lyanna and Rhaegar have known bad things would've happened" argument? Sure, a full scale rebellion was hard to predict, but a major trouble of some kind was to be expected. Rhaegar as the adult and given that he knew his father as well as anyone has far more responsibility, of course, but Lyanna has some of it too if she went with him willingly.

My feelings exactly.

Even if you remove KL from the equation, Rhaegar was pissing off the ENTIRE North and Stormland regions when he took Lyanna. You might want to include the Vale too in that "Pissed-Off-Realm" list because Robert was like Jon's son and they would have strong feelings over the situation. So we now are up to three REALLY pissed off Liege Lords. Even the Riverlands would have been unhappy because they had formed a friendship with the North with their Tully/Stark engagement. Then there's Dorne. They SHOULD have been pissed off and we really don't know what their initial reaction was and their reasonings for appearing so apathetic.

Rhaegar was extremely educated and competent. I think he HAD to have known he was upsetting 5 of the 7 kingdoms with his kidnapping/love affair. He was being disrespectful to four Liege Lords directly, and indirectly to a fifth.

From a military point of view, I'd think it would be dangerous to upset two or more of the 7 kingdoms at the same time!

[RedBean]

A lot of assumptions here, and hindsight logic. Elia and her children were perfectly safe with Aerys during Rhaegar's absence before (his prolonged trips to Summerhall, or fighting the bandits), so there was no reason to think otherwise. We don't know if Lyanna wrote a letter or not, because we don't know why Brandon yelled for Rhaegar to "come out and die" instead of "return my sister at once" - the reaction fits both to madness over his sister's fate and to hurt pride over her seduction (though personally, I think the latter). We have no idea what Elia thought about the whole affair and her reactions could have been anything from hurt and offended to relieved that she won't have to be bedded again, or pragmatic acceptance of things as they were, or blessing Rhaegar with her leave because she wished him happiness in life.

As to them coming out of hiding, I have already adressed the point above - once Aerys murdered Brandon and Rickard and demanded Ned and Robert's heads, it would have changed nothing, because it was these interconnected events, and not Lyanna's eloping, that sparkled the Rebellion. Basically, Aerys gave Ned and Robert only two choices: submit and die, or rebel. Lyanna's coming out is inconsequential to these options, and once her brother and ex-betrothed rebelled, she HAD to stay in hiding, because she would be at risk of being taken hostage against them, and I believe Ned would rather lose his own head than let his sister burn at Aerys' whim.

Hindsight is not the same as being shortsighted. Lyanna and Rhaegar should have known that their running away would cause problems, but they just didn't address that.

I'm not making assumptions either. Maybe Lyanna wrote a letter (which is in itself an assumption you made) but they stayed silent afterwards, and did nothing. And while Rhaegar couldn't have known that his family would be brutally murdered, I would still expect him to be extra careful, as a husband and father, that his family would be safe during a huge scandal like this one. He knew his father was crazy. Elia and her children were held captive by Aerys in order to get Dorne to go to war with him. But Rhaegar didn't do anything about that either.

As to Elia being perfectly alright with the elopement - she's a Dornish princess, and I would expect her to have some pride in herself, and care about how people think of her. I really don't think she's a doormat who only cared for her husband's happiness.

And yes, the rebellion probably wouldn't have ended with her coming out of hiding. But they could have at least tried to make things right. They have no excuse for doing nothing when the conflict started because of them.